Vatican demands reform of American nuns' leadership group [CWN]

[jwinch2]

This stuff is going to be laughing material for a decade. I can tell. It’s outlandish.

I hope so. It would be a whole lot funnier now if she was just some nutty new age lady out there and not right smack in the middle of this situation.

 

[iloveangels]

I hope so. It would be a whole lot funnier now if she was just some nutty new age lady out there and not right smack in the middle of this situation.

Actually, Jason, when it was subtle and they were still hiding it from view it wasn’t funny. But now this whole business has totally “jumped the shark.” I think even the news media is probably having trouble keeping a straight face on this one.

Barbara Marx Hubbard? Really?

 

[jilly4ski]

Actually, Jason, when it was subtle and they were still hiding it from view it wasn’t funny. But now this whole business has totally “jumped the shark.” I think even the news media is probably having trouble keeping a straight face on this one.

Barbara Marx Hubbard? Really?

I want to know how we can be a prefix? So we are the “co,” can we also the “sub” or the “pre” or “un” etc.

I love how they make up their own language, using the same words with radically different meanings. All you can do is be in awe of their ability to take themselves seriously.

 

[iloveangels]

I want to know how we can be a prefix? So we are the “co,” can we also the “sub” or the “pre” or “un” etc.

I love how they make up their own language, using the same words with radically different meanings. All you can do is be in awe of their ability to take themselves seriously.

Did you ever go out on the internet and look at the lists of cults out there? There are people who make it their business to study these things. Seriously, it’s an eye-opener.

I’m exclusively Catholic now since I converted in the 80s. But I almost certainly have more experience in the varieties of religion, Christian and otherwise, than most Catholics. Catholics historically have been limited in their experiences of other religions, I know.

However, I grew up in the 60s and I wasn’t Catholic then. And having seen some of this stuff up close and personal, I’m interested in it, more or less for academic reasons now. Some people will believe virtually anything. I found it astonishing in the 60s and I still do.

It’s amazing to see this kind of cult-like talk emerge the way it has within the Catholic structure. I mean, that’s naive.

 

[Dawnia]

I want to know how we can be a prefix? So we are the “co,” can we also the “sub” or the “pre” or “un” etc.

I love how they make up their own language, using the same words with radically different meanings. All you can do is be in awe of their ability to take themselves seriously.

 

[KSU]

It’s amazing to see this kind of cult-like talk emerge the way it has within the Catholic structure. I mean, that’s naive.

IMO it’s all just cover for various mixtures of hubris, hatred, homosexuality and Socialism. These poor souls are to be pitied and prayed for, but not let anywhere near religious instruction or anything with a Catholic auspices.

The mystery is why Our Lord permits evil to infiltrate even His body on earth to endanger souls.

 

[Zosimus41]

They just need to clean out that rats nest of liberal nuns. Disorganize 'em. Break 'em up. Do a “Bishop Bruskewitz” on 'em. (Give 'em 30 days to disassociate themselves with the heterodox organizations, or get excommunicated.) That would be the simplest and easiest way to solve the problem.

It seems the “spirit of the world” has infiltrated their order.

Looking at their pictures on the web (nuns on the bus) they remind me of group of feminist getting ready for a bra burning ceremony. There is nothing remotley that resembles catholosim
about them. No habbits, Catholic posters,rosaries. Unless I missed somthing.

The youtube video did have a mochery of the American Flag that had a peace sign where the stars should be as they tried to cover someones poster I couldnt make out what the poster stated.

 

[Zosimus41]

IMO it’s all just cover for various mixtures of hubris, hatred, homosexuality and Socialism. These poor souls are to be pitied and prayed for, but not let anywhere near religious instruction or anything with a Catholic auspices.

The mystery is why Our Lord permits evil to infiltrate even His body on earth to endanger souls.

I find these prophecies interesting.

You have Garabandal

As my Message of the 18th of October has not been complied with, and as it has not been made known to the world, I am telling you that this is the last one. Previously, the Cup was filling; now, it is brimming over. many cardinals, many bishops and many priests are following the road to perdition, and with them they are taking many more souls. Ever less importance is being given to the Holy Eucharist. We should turn the wrath of God away from us by our own efforts. If you ask His forgiveness with a sincere heart. He will pardon you. I, your Mother, through the intercession of St. Michael the Archangel, wish to tell you that you should make amends. You are now being given the last warnings. I love you very much, and I do not want your condemnation. Ask Us sincerely and We shall grant your plea. You must make more sacrifices. Reflect on the Passion of Jesus.

Even though the church may not recognise Garabandal as a true apparition of our Lady its still sound advice.Make more sacrifices. Reflect on the Passion of Jesus.

Saint Malachy

In** extreme persecution**, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman,** who will feed the sheep through many tribulations**, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End.

 

[Elizabeth502]

It’s amazing to see this kind of cult-like talk emerge the way it has within the Catholic structure.

It’s even more amazing to me to read that at least three members of the LCWR have stated that they do not consider the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and thus do not owe him obedience.

 

[jwinch2]

It’s even more amazing to me to read that at least three members of the LCWR have stated that they do not consider the Pope to be the Vicar of Christ, and thus do not owe him obedience.

Do you have verified quotes on that? I’m not disputing you, its just that this is the first I have seen that come up in this thread and if I am going to use that, which I would like to, I need to be able to back it up.

Peace,

 

[Elizabeth502]

Do you have verified quotes on that? I’m not disputing you, its just that this is the first I have seen that come up in this thread and if I am going to use that, which I would like to, I need to be able to back it up.

One was a prominent LCWR member of several years ago, saying that the vow of obedience was not to the Church, but to God. (I covered in a previous response of mine, maybe much earlier, how that’s contradictory.)

One was recently, and I wish I could remember whether it was Farrell or someone else. (mentioning that the obedience was not to anyone in the ecclesial body, and of course that’s true: but by extension, the Church speaks for and with Christ and His Spirit.)

One was a comment underneath one of the two articles I read today (and quoted from). The commenter was obviously a religious, from the context. And she was very specific about not believing that the Pope was the Vicar of Christ.

 

[jilly4ski]

Did you ever go out on the internet and look at the lists of cults out there? There are people who make it their business to study these things. Seriously, it’s an eye-opener.

I’m exclusively Catholic now since I converted in the 80s. But I almost certainly have more experience in the varieties of religion, Christian and otherwise, than most Catholics. Catholics historically have been limited in their experiences of other religions, I know.

However, I grew up in the 60s and I wasn’t Catholic then. And having seen some of this stuff up close and personal, I’m interested in it, more or less for academic reasons now. Some people will believe virtually anything. I found it astonishing in the 60s and I still do.

It’s amazing to see this kind of cult-like talk emerge the way it has within the Catholic structure. I mean, that’s naive.

That’s really interesting. I am a little young to know much about the cult phase that was big back then. I hardly remember the big tragedies in the early 90s(?).

I have been calling it the “we are church” phenomenon and was introduced to it in college, from the theology department, who held a infinity to this kind of speak. (Look I can us poor grammar to change meanings of words too). I just know that it is really hard to communicate with people who do this. They put in on you to understand what they are saying and will refuse to define terms or change their meaning in the middle, making discussion pointless.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Of course, the thing is, we are indeed – all of us – Church. The Church herself says so! The problem is that the LCWR often pit themselves, as Church, against the hierarchical Church, when there’s no need for that, or justification for it, i.m.o.

Again, who can dispute their work – the vast majority of which I’m sure is faithful to the Gospel and to Christian charity and the Church’s mission to the poor and suffering?

There just seem to be superfluous battle poses coming from their end (in the verbage), and it’s hard to understand what they’re fighting against, unless it’s an anticiipatory battle (a defensive one), which seems to be the way it gets conveyed often.

 

[iloveangels]

Of course, the thing is, we are indeed – all of us – Church. The Church herself says so! The problem is that the LCWR often pit themselves, as Church, against the hierarchical Church, when there’s no need for that, or justification for it, i.m.o.

Again, who can dispute their work – the vast majority of which I’m sure is faithful to the Gospel and to Christian charity and the Church’s mission to the poor and suffering?

There just seem to be superfluous battle poses coming from their end (in the verbage), and it’s hard to understand what they’re fighting against, unless it’s an anticiipatory battle (a defensive one), which seems to be the way it gets conveyed often.

Elizabeth,

This has been going on for a long time, and many people have personal experiences seeing such things in action. I do.

More than a 15 years ago, when I was working for a Catholic high school, the principal set up an end-of-the-year retreat for the Catholic school teachers with a local convent of sisters. They put us through the works, presumably they thought that as diocesan employees we were on the same page with them. We prayed for the “oppressor,” were witness to a “Communion service” of doubtful validity and need-Catholic church less than 1/4 mile away- and were exposed to all kinds of new age strangeness. It was supposed to last a day. I’m pretty outspoken, so after a couple of hours, I just got in my car and left. I complained to the principal and the parish priest in specific terms. That was the last end-of-the-year retreat of that sort that we went on. It was outrageous. That was my eye-opener. I was disoriented and shocked.

This same convent has had solstice ceremonies with drums and processing around in the trees at night for more than 15 years now. From my own information, I do not believe that all the sisters participate in this. It’s a particular vocal half or so along with laypeople. This particular community has schismed, with half being post-modern, the other half being very old and in pain over all this. Recently, they merged with some other congregations which were even more postmodern though, so I’m not sure where that left the more traditional sisters. I haven’t been up there in a while.

This is not an isolated incident in religious congregations. This has been going on for ages.

BTW, this was a congregation of teaching sisters. Virtually none of them teach, do social work or hospital work. The average age is 70+. The younger ones do engage in ecofeminism and as directors of very leftist causes. They do host CTA-type speakers on occasion on their property. These are people who probably wouldn’t be allowed to speak on parish properties. The order is dying out.

The local diocese does rent space from them for their far more orthodox programs simply because the sisters are rich and have a lot of property which is good to use. I’ve been up there for those programs, which are put on by the diocese and are fine. I’ve been up there overnight and spent some time talking to the sisters and it’s a sad sad situation they have up there, divided community and all, but that’s another post.

The sisters also rent space to non-Christian groups though, so you have to be careful what you walk into. It’s a spooky place.

I’ve told this true story on here before, I’m pretty sure, even before the recent LCWR document from the CDF. This was event was shocking as far as I was concerned. I’m a long-time convert, but I came into the Church expecting something very different than what I’ve seen as a Catholic. Granted, I’ve worked for a Catholic school and been around and I’m pretty observant, trained in science you know. I’ve seen stuff that’d make your hair stand on end. That’s how come I’m a bit casual about little stuff like hats in mass etc. Trust me, hats are trivial.

 

[iloveangels]

Of course, the thing is, we are indeed – all of us – Church. The Church herself says so! The problem is that the LCWR often pit themselves, as Church, against the hierarchical Church, when there’s no need for that, or justification for it, i.m.o.

Again, who can dispute their work – the vast majority of which I’m sure is faithful to the Gospel and to Christian charity and the Church’s mission to the poor and suffering?

There just seem to be superfluous battle poses coming from their end (in the verbage), and it’s hard to understand what they’re fighting against, unless it’s an anticiipatory battle (a defensive one), which seems to be the way it gets conveyed often.

Yes, but you have to be careful with that turn of phrase, Elizabeth (We are Church). It’s used in a couple of radically different ways. It’s even the name of a dissident organization that defies the authority of the Church. I don’t want to link it here, but if you Google or Bing those 3 words, that organization comes right up. That’s why the phrase gets the response it sometimes does, and sometimes why it’s used in Catholic word games of various sorts.

 

[iloveangels]

That’s really interesting. I am a little young to know much about the cult phase that was big back then. I hardly remember the big tragedies in the early 90s(?).

I have been calling it the “we are church” phenomenon and was introduced to it in college, from the theology department, who held a infinity to this kind of speak. (Look I can us poor grammar to change meanings of words too). I just know that it is really hard to communicate with people who do this. They put in on you to understand what they are saying and will refuse to define terms or change their meaning in the middle, making discussion pointless.

I know exactly what you mean, jilly4ski. And you are right to be wary of any of these kinds of word games. They usually mean trouble.

 

[Edward_H]

Most of the debate about this issue is so typically cast in secular power politics language, when we should more deeply reflect on the pastoral focus of the Vatican. The reform is targeting the nuns greatest good, union with God and His Church, now and in the hereafter.

Having the dissenting nuns orders die out (most of the dissenting orders are in steep decline), or spin off into secular humanism, is not supporting the nuns’ corporate and individual good.

 

[jwinch2]

Most of the debate about this issue is so typically cast in secular power politics language, when we should more deeply reflect on the pastoral focus of the Vatican. The reform is targeting the nuns greatest good, union with God and His Church, now and in the hereafter.

Having the dissenting nuns orders die out (most of the dissenting orders are in steep decline), or spin off into secular humanism, is not supporting the nuns’ corporate and individual good.

Agreed. By far the best outcome is for these sisters to experience a conversion of heart and mind and live their vows according to the Tradition and teachings of the Church. The Vatican has indeed taken a pastoral approach and has certainly done much to handle this behind the scenes for many years. I am hopeful, albeit not optimistic, that such a resolution can be achieved.

 

[iloveangels]

Agreed. By far the best outcome is for these sisters to experience a conversion of heart and mind and live their vows according to the Tradition and teachings of the Church. The Vatican has indeed taken a pastoral approach and has certainly done much to handle this behind the scenes for many years. I am hopeful, albeit not optimistic, that such a resolution can be achieved.

Actually, Jason, I think this matter of women’s religious congregations is very similar to the business about translations.

The Church in the USA is only 5% of the global church, even though we donate at levels a bit higher than that, and the fact that we are in the English language group gives us a bit more of a platform than say, those in the Italian or Greek language group.

And so, up until about 1995, we got only about 5% of the Holy See’s attention, if that. You have to understand that the Church is involved in all kinds of global things and they’re trying to manage China and its behavior toward Chinese Catholics and all that. We, as Americans like to think we run everything, but we don’t. When the Catechism of the Catholic Church was put together in French and Latin, and then the text was sent out to be translated into all the languages that are used in the Church, English only one of them, something very interesting happened. It’s a fairly long story, and it’s detailed out in the book Catechisms and Controversies by Msgr Michael Wrenn. I can’t recommend that book strongly enough. It’s excellent and even though it’s 10 years old or so, it will help you to understand what’s going on.

At any rate, the CCC was sent to the US to be translated, the US being a large part of the English-speaking linguistic group as far as ICEL was concerned, and the first translation draft was absolutely disastrous. If you can get a copy of it, do. It’s hilarious. [There are excerpts in the book cited above.] The final translation was actually done in New Zealand, believe it or not. They could not get it done here or in the UK without it being totally corrupted. Do you remember how it took literally years to get it to market, I mean, far longer than it took for the Spanish version, for instance? That’s why. And then the Holy See arranged the copyright legally so that many publishers, including even secular ones, could print it, which is what happened. It was even sold in Walmart to guarantee we innocent laypeople would be able to get it. It’s also on the Vatican website in several languages, including English. They wanted us to have it.

Well, that little mess opened the eyes of the Church in Rome about us. The Vatican is onto the problems here now. We have a new mass translation and some of our other problems are being confronted. We may be only 5% but we finally got to the point where we were causing more than 5% of the Church’s troubles, so they’re cleaning us up. This is where we get to the LCWR and the situation of our religious. No one knows how they were tipped off in Rome, but they were. And so here we are.

Make no mistake, when the CDF is ON IT, they do a good job. We have more of their attention now–at least 5% and probably much, much more. This is why since about 1998, I have been more optimistic about things in the Church. We are no longer just percolating along like unsupervised juvenile delinquents naively getting into everything we can get our hands on.

 

[jwinch2]

Actually, Jason, I think this matter of women’s religious congregations is very similar to the business about translations.

To a point I agree. Though, the issues with LCWR have been in the open for some time. I don’t believe that the Vatican was oblivious to this when you have a mob of sisters show up to protest in support of women’s ordination. That happened a long time ago. One of the articles earlier in this thread discussed efforts to reign these sisters in prior to the apostolic visitations, but I can’t remember the details now.

Make no mistake, when the CDF is ON IT, they do a good job. We have more of their attention now–at least 5% and probably much, much more. This is why since about 1998, I have been more optimistic about things in the Church. We are no longer just percolating along like unsupervised juvenile delinquents naively getting into everything we can get our hands on.

The trends right now indicate you are correct in that we have the attention of Rome. We have certainly seen the appointment of many more conservative and orthodox bishops in recent years. Whether this attention translates into anything tangible in terms of a resurgence of fidelity in the US Church remains to be seen. The problems were not created overnight, though it almost seems like it at times, and they will take a generation or two of sustained focus from the Vatican and strong, orthodox, leadership by the USCCB, to right themselves.