Vatican denies pope is open to recognition of gay civil unions

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Also, misrepresentation of the words of holy men is as old as Christ Himself.

His enemies accused Him of “wanting to destroy the temple”, “refusing to pay taxes” and “proclaiming himself a King” - all of which were subtle distortions of what He actually said.

And St. Paul was also accused of teaching libertinism, simply because he tried to explain the difference between the Old and New Covenants.

If Christ and St. Paul were not spared, could Francis hope for anything less? “If they have called the master Beelzebub, how much more his disciples?”
 
Except civil unions are not calling themselves “marriage”. It is a system of legal benefit granting within the purview of the state that does not, I repeat, does not call itself “marriage”.
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A Pope/bishop could support civil unions and still be in line with Catholic teaching.
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No, they can’t. These unions have the same effect whether they use the word “marriage” or not. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is pretty clear about this, stating:
" Laws in favour of homosexual unions are contrary to right reason because they confer legal guarantees, analogous to those granted to marriage, to unions between persons of the same sex. Given the values at stake in this question, the State could not grant legal standing to such unions without failing in its duty to promote and defend marriage as an institution essential to the common good."
(Bolding mine)

You can read more of the statement here
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html
 
tm30 said:
What’s disturbing is not the notion that the Church would ever change its views on gay marriage, it’s the fact that a pope who does not communicate clearly can cause incalculable scandal to those who do not know better, without changing any official teachings.
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Agree. We all know the Pope is the son of the Church. We all know he has no intention to change any doctrine. We all know the media intentionally twist the Pope’s words. What is disturbing is after so many twists by the media, we still don’t see any intention to avoid twisting.

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict sixteenth were not having these media twisting problems because they spoke very clearly. Their words did not allow any chance of twisting. As great as Pope Francis is, every time he speaks, I sweat. The fact the Pope’s words could easily be used to confuse the public is a big problem. It certainly helps the secular world. The rumor that Pope recognizes gay marriage actually helps the growing of homosexual relationship. People who do not know the truth will think it is OK to have homosexual action since the Pope approves it. Rumor can help the evil to grow.
 
marymary1975 said:
I disagree on that. The pope communicates very clearly. The media changes what the pope says or takes one sentence out of context and elaborates over it. This is nothing new and was done with Popes Benedict and John Paul (remember when the media came out saying that JP2 said that hell didn’t exist???.. Nothing to do with the pope is the secular media).
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What’s remarkable is that my comment about a pope possibly causing scandal with unclear teaching was removed. Is the pope personally infallible?
 
Joe_5859 said:
It’s somewhat sad that the Vatican press office needs to keep stating the obvious.

If you look at the original interview, in speaking of some of the difficult situations in preaching the Gospel today, he makes a passing reference to a little girl whose mom has a girlfriend. The entire point is simply to illustrate that we have to figure out how to preach the Gospel in these complex family situations. How the media can extrapolate out of this some sort of impending approval of gay unions is utterly mystifying.
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The Pope doesn’t seem to be much involved in “politics” at all. IOW, he doesn’t seem to be a “Christianist”, a Christianist being someone who wishes to mix Christianity and politics.

What I’m seeing is that the Vatican, being a city State does -and it should as it has to be.
 
PTL said:
Agree. We all know the Pope is the son of the Church. We all know he has no intention to change any doctrine. We all know the media intentionally twist the Pope’s words. What is disturbing is after so many twists by the media, we still don’t see any intention to avoid twisting.

Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict sixteenth were not having these media twisting problems because they spoke very clearly. Their words did not allow any chance of twisting. As great as Pope Francis is, every time he speaks, I sweat. The fact the Pope’s words could easily be used to confuse the public is a big problem. It certainly helps the secular world. The rumor that Pope recognizes gay marriage actually helps the growing of homosexual relationship. People who do not know the truth will think it is OK to have homosexual action since the Pope approves it. Rumor can help the evil to grow.
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This is not correct. JP2 most remarkable examples of this same issue is when the media announced he said that hell didn’t exist and that you don’t have to be catholic that the only need people need to go to heaven is being good, and that religion is not necessary for salvation. Those are only three out of many distortions of JP2’s statements. With Benedict the most notable distortions was his speech to Vietnamese bishops that was distorted to say the church had some information on scandals and when the media said he said the church had no rules. As I said before this is not excluve of pope Francis.
 
tm30 said:
What’s remarkable is that my comment about a pope possibly causing scandal with unclear teaching was removed. Is the pope personally infallible?
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The pope is not causing any scandal or giving any unclear teaching. The media is publishing things he didn’t say. What does that have to do with inability?
 
RPRPsych said:
Oh, very clever. :rolleyes:

I’m nobody. I can only stand on what the Church teaches. But there’s this inconvenient little verse in the Bible that those who attack the Pope and the Church might like to recall:

*But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render an account for it in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. * (St. Matthew, ch. 12, v. 36-37)

There’s also:

He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me (St. Luke, ch. 10, v. 16) - in this verse, “you” refers to Christ’s disciples.

You’re free to take your chances - like I said, I’m nobody. But it’s sad to see people on a Catholic forum passing hasty judgment on the Pope and the Church as if they were acolytes of Richard Dawkins.
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So criticism = judgment? Is that what it’s come to? Didn’t Francis tell us to follow our conscience? Which is it?

And lest you think the pope is a demi-god, he is working out his salvation as we all are. Those passages apply to every person who walks this earth. There’s a reason we have a very VERY narrow definition of infallibility. Personal opinions are not guaranteed by the Holy Spirit. That’s why great care needs to be taken, so these “little ones” are not scandalized into thinking, for example, their beloved homosexual-married Seattle high school teacher is a pillar of Catholic morality because of something Francis said. Words mean things, as you so rightly point out. My criticism is not of the papal office or the Magisterium, but the need to issue a press release confirming that the pope hasn’t “abolished sin”.

Peace be with you. Peace be with Pope Francis.
 
tm30 said:
Who are you to judge?
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Far too many people equate stating opinion to judging. Jesus didn’t say,
“Thall shall not state your opinion.”

In fact, He asked us to share our opinions with our brothers and neighbors so to help them oversome their sins.

“Don’t judge” is just a p.c. catchphrase that sounds good but, in reality, is non-sense. In order to form any opinion (ie - have free-will) we must judge (weigh, consider, compare, contrast) the choices.

Anyway, those why throw the “Don’t judge” bomb around are guilty of judging the person they’ve accused of judging in the first place.
 
marymary1975 said:
The pope is not causing any scandal or giving any unclear teaching. The media is publishing things he didn’t say. What does that have to do with inability?
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theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/21/seattle-catholic-schools-firing-gay-vice-principal

Please note – I am not judging Francis. I am analyzing the effect of his statements. I will leave it at this. Here are some scandalized Catholic students reacting to the firing of their vice principal after he married his homosexual partner:
The students who gathered in support of Zmuda said that while he may have violated his employment contract, the actions of the school and the church betray Jesus Christ’s foundational teachings of love, tolerance and equality.
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And, they said, the school’s discrimination is out of alignment with a recent statement made by Pope Francis, who told a reporter: “If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge?”
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tm30 said:
That’s why great care needs to be taken, so these “little ones” are not scandalized into thinking, for example, their beloved homosexual-married Seattle high school teacher is a pillar of Catholic morality because of something Francis said.
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Agreed, but one would need to be willfully obtuse to get that out of anything the Pope has said.
Words mean things, as you so rightly point out. My criticism is not of the papal office or the Magisterium, but the need to issue a press release confirming that the pope hasn’t “abolished sin”.
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I understand. But even Saint Paul had trouble with this; see the epistle to the Romans.
Peace be with you. Peace be with Pope Francis.
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And also with you. 👍
 
Zachary said:
Far too many people equate stating opinion to judging. Jesus didn’t say,
“Thall shall not state your opinion.”

In fact, He asked us to share our opinions with our brothers and neighbors so to help them oversome their sins.

“Don’t judge” is just a p.c. catchphrase that sounds good but, in reality, is non-sense. In order to form any opinion (ie - have free-will) we must judge (weigh, consider, compare, contrast) the choices.

Anyway, those why throw the “Don’t judge” bomb around are guilty of judging the person they’ve accused of judging in the first place.
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It was a statement of irony.
 
I wouldn’t say he doesn’t communicate clearly. But by ‘sounding’ softer (while still remaining firm to doctrine and dogma), the media gets all antsy and excited, so they pick at what he says to find something seemingly indiscriminate and then announce the Church is changing her ways! It’s as if the only times the Pope can mention abortion, homosexuality, etc are in the negative - anytime something neutral is said (like “the Church opens its doors to those who have had abortions”) suddenly means the Church must be OK with whatever action is in discussion.

All Pope Francis has really stressed is the the sin, not the sinner. Why that is so hard for the media to fathom is beyond me.
 
marymary1975 said:
This is not correct. JP2 most remarkable examples of this same issue is when the media announced he said that hell didn’t exist and that you don’t have to be catholic that the only need people need to go to heaven is being good, and that religion is not necessary for salvation. Those are only three out of many distortions of JP2’s statements. With Benedict the most notable distortions was his speech to Vietnamese bishops that was distorted to say the church had some information on scandals and when the media said he said the church had no rules. As I said before this is not excluve of pope Francis.
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I did not say being twisted is exclusive for Pope Francis. The other Popes’ words may be occasionally twisted where as Pope Francis is being twisted almost EVERY time. There is a big difference.

When his words is twisted left and right, it helps the sinful actions to be justified by the false interpretation. It benefits the evil. And for the laity, not everyone has proper catechism and not everyone has thorough understanding of our Catholic faith, it will cause the weaker brothers to fall. Actually most of us are the weaker ones. The ambiguity of the Pope’s words can cause many weak laities to fall. The Pope may think his words are clear, you may think his words are clear, but many less informed ones may be confused and tripped over. Ignoring the fact that his words are being used to justify sinful actions is a big problem.
 
tm30 said:
theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/21/seattle-catholic-schools-firing-gay-vice-principal

Please note – I am not judging Francis. I am analyzing the effect of his statements. I will leave it at this. Here are some scandalized Catholic students reacting to the firing of their vice principal after he married his homosexual partner:
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My question to you: have you looked for the actual and ORIGINAL interview in Spanish and Italian from which that statement was taken and read it? Obviously not bbecause is you had you probably should know that the Pope did NOT say that. Your analysis of his statement is wrong simply because he DID NOT SAY what you allege. The students are using a statement that was: mistranslated, misinterpreted and taken out of context. Is that Pope Francis’ responsibility. On exactly the same token, many priests (which i think is Much worse because priests do preach, which these students don’t) back in the 90’s started teaching that heaven and hell did not exist. Should you blame john Paul II because this wrong teaching came out of his statememt?
 
PTL said:
I did not say being twisted is exclusive for Pope Francis. The other Popes’ words may be occasionally twisted where as Pope Francis is being twisted almost EVERY time. There is a big difference.

When his words is twisted left and right, it helps the sinful actions to be justified by the false interpretation. It benefits the evil. And for the laity, not everyone has proper catechism and not everyone has thorough understanding of our Catholic faith, it will cause the weaker brothers to fall. Actually most of us are the weaker ones. The ambiguity of the Pope’s words can cause many weak laities to fall. The Pope may think his words are clear, you may think his words are clear, but many less informed ones may be confused and tripped over. Ignoring the fact that his words are being used to justify sinful actions is a big problem.
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I again disagree on that. Pope john Paul was constantly twisted too. I just gave you three examples out of a huge list. If I sit and start giving you the list of misquotations from him – and only from the 90’s, God forbid if I go back to the 80’s I am never ending. Pope Benedict was Pope for not even half the time Pope John Paul was and he was misquoted about the same amount of times Pope John Paul was in a period of ten years. The pope’s words don’t cause everything. This is not new and every catholic should know by now the media wants to give a bad rep to the church. If you choose to believe something that one, doesn’t make sense, and two, you haven’t verified the origin of it, that is your own fault not the Pope’s fault.
 
Unfortunately, from what I can tell, Fr. Lombardi is saying “The Pope was not addressing civil unions, and his words were being manipulated”.

This stops short of saying “the Pope does not approve of civil unions”.
 
marymary1975 said:
I again disagree on that. Pope john Paul was constantly twisted too. I just gave you three examples out of a huge list. If I sit and start giving you the list of misquotations from him – and only from the 90’s, God forbid if I go back to the 80’s I am never ending. Pope Benedict was Pope for not even half the time Pope John Paul was and he was misquoted about the same amount of times Pope John Paul was in a period of ten years. The pope’s words don’t cause everything. This is not new and every catholic should know by now the media wants to give a bad rep to the church. If you choose to believe something that one, doesn’t make sense, and two, you haven’t verified the origin of it, that is your own fault not the Pope’s fault.
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No matter what you say, none of other Popes were twisted like Pope Francis in the way to help the evil. And years ago gay union was not as bad as of today. You can be very righteous by saying if people do not check and dig the origin, it is their fault, but you cannot deny the majority will not check and dig. That is why to have clear teaching is very important. This Pope said “who am I to judge?” Look how many times it is quoted for various reasons?You can disagree a thousand times but you cannot deny facts.
 
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