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Vatican Document Forbidding Homosexuals to Priesthood Ready for Release
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fix
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oat_soda
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even “effeminate” is a subjective term but within reason i don’t think a guy who has the mannerisms of girl or an ape for that matter would be a good fit for the priesthood.
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Libero
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that is not really what effeminate means, it means a man who has some charcteristics that are more closely associated to a woman than a man.
Also, is rejecting a man who has homosexual tendancies from the priesthood really saving the catholic church from that much trouble?
What about if a man who happens to have homosexual tendancies, which he is not happy with, and has remained chaste all his life, has extremely good qualifications in Religion and philosophy is called to the priesthood by God? Here the church would be unfairly punishing a person for a psycological issue that he cannot control, but has done his best not to. What’s more the church would also be directly stopping the wish of God.
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contemplative
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This is an excellent article. I printed it and have been reading and thinking about it since you posted. Thanks for sharing. I am not ready to comment quite yet but I will.
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fix
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I must disagree with this line of thought. The Church has the authority from God to decide who will be ordained. Once we start making the claim someone is harmed by not being ordained then we start down the road to ordainization as some kind of perceived right rather than a calling that is decided upon by the Church.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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I agree with this, as one is not called to Holy Orders until the Church calls.
If the Church does not call, then there is no calling.
Hence women who feel called to the priesthood are not recieving an authentic call as the Church does not call them to it.
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fix
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I thought it was informative and courageous for this priest to put it out there for all to see.
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contemplative
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True…very true.
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contemplative
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Yes, this priest was very courageous and I am thankful. He put my thoughts into words. All these things he writes about I have witnessed or experienced.
fathertodd.com/blog/archives/2005/06/the_forgotten_v.html
I am a woman but can relate to this article personally to some degree.
Over the past few years I have gradually discarded being effeminate yet maintained my feminity. No one said anything to me. I simply followed the good example of experienced members in my prayer group. These people in my prayer group are committed to a life-long search for God within the Benedictine/Cistercian Tradition. Naturally I have followed their example because they are simply great examples. No one had to say a word of correction to me. All I needed to do was look and see that at times I was the odd woman out.
If there aren’t enough good bishops and priests correcting effeminancy and such within, then what is bound to happen?
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m134e5
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“since the scandal, the Church will have to cut down and raise the bar for thsoe who would be preists. It will be unpopular no doubt. But if we must do what we can to make sure it never happens again”.
Totally banning men with homosexual tendencies from the priesthood won’t work. The only ones it will deter will be those who likely would have been faithful- and are still faithful to the Church (although hurt, because people don’t seem to understand that your sexuality has very little to do with whether or not you can control yourself- if so, then it’s a double curse for homosexuals- they’re banned because they are supposedly weaker at resisting their urges, yet they must always resist it- and out in the world too- where everyone thinks they’re crazy for trying to do that- and tells them it’ll never work).
Some who are adament about becoming priests will hide it- I assure you- most men with this struggle have been “in the closet” at least at some time- they know how to hide it. It would, however, get rid of priests with puppets and those stupid clown Masses I’ve read about on other threads.
How will they determine whether someone is too homosexual for the priesthood? Many- if not most- guys are curious about other guys sometime as they’re growing up (that part is just part of growing up- hormones can make you think strange thoughts) and a lot have probably done things about it they’re not proud of. Are they disqualified from the priesthood then?
Research has suggested that homosexuality is caused by experiences as the person is growing up- mainly from the parents- who were likely heterosexual. There is a saying: Fathers- hug your sons- if you don’t, another man will. Many fathers I know can’t show emotion or be affectionate with their sons- it just makes them too uncomfortable. Some allow their wives, and everyone else (but the son) to walk all over them- a weak excuse for a man- being the son’s main male role model. Would it be ok for these men to be priests (with the same personality, but imagining that they had never married). Men like this are more of a danger to the family, to the priesthood, to the Church, and to society than homosexuals are- in part, because even conservative society doesn’t really- and has never really- condemned it.
Finally, as I have said before
**THE PROBLEM IS NOT HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS!!! THE PROBLEM IS PRIESTS WHO ARE UNFAITHFUL!!! **
A married man may think another woman is very attractive, but that sure doesn’t make it ok for him to have sex with her. A priest breaking his vows/promise of celibacy is no different than a man cheating on his wife- a priest is married to the church- it is the exact same thing.
Totally banning men with homosexual tendencies from the priesthood won’t work. The only ones it will deter will be those who likely would have been faithful- and are still faithful to the Church (although hurt, because people don’t seem to understand that your sexuality has very little to do with whether or not you can control yourself- if so, then it’s a double curse for homosexuals- they’re banned because they are supposedly weaker at resisting their urges, yet they must always resist it- and out in the world too- where everyone thinks they’re crazy for trying to do that- and tells them it’ll never work).
Some who are adament about becoming priests will hide it- I assure you- most men with this struggle have been “in the closet” at least at some time- they know how to hide it. It would, however, get rid of priests with puppets and those stupid clown Masses I’ve read about on other threads.
How will they determine whether someone is too homosexual for the priesthood? Many- if not most- guys are curious about other guys sometime as they’re growing up (that part is just part of growing up- hormones can make you think strange thoughts) and a lot have probably done things about it they’re not proud of. Are they disqualified from the priesthood then?
Research has suggested that homosexuality is caused by experiences as the person is growing up- mainly from the parents- who were likely heterosexual. There is a saying: Fathers- hug your sons- if you don’t, another man will. Many fathers I know can’t show emotion or be affectionate with their sons- it just makes them too uncomfortable. Some allow their wives, and everyone else (but the son) to walk all over them- a weak excuse for a man- being the son’s main male role model. Would it be ok for these men to be priests (with the same personality, but imagining that they had never married). Men like this are more of a danger to the family, to the priesthood, to the Church, and to society than homosexuals are- in part, because even conservative society doesn’t really- and has never really- condemned it.
Finally, as I have said before
**THE PROBLEM IS NOT HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS!!! THE PROBLEM IS PRIESTS WHO ARE UNFAITHFUL!!! **
A married man may think another woman is very attractive, but that sure doesn’t make it ok for him to have sex with her. A priest breaking his vows/promise of celibacy is no different than a man cheating on his wife- a priest is married to the church- it is the exact same thing.
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m134e5
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This is totally different. Women haven’t ever been ordained. Celibacy was encouraged in the bible- those things have always been encouraged. Serfs from the middle ages weren’t ordained (at least not as often as nobles or anyone else). Black men weren’t always ordained- I suppose they never recieved an authentic call- since in various times and places they were rarely if ever ordained.
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contemplative
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So when did we lose so many heterosexual priests and wind up with a high population of homosexual priests? The answer is during the big sexual revolution of the sixties and early seventies. It is documented that many heterosexual men left the priesthood during this time. The ordained homosexual priests had no where to go at that time so they remained in the priesthood. Now the unusual situation is that those very homosexual priests that remainded are now 50, 60 or pushing seventy years old and witnessing the ‘gay revolution’ which perhaps many are partly responsible for.
m134e5 stated the partial truth in a previous post "THE PROBLEM IS NOT HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS!!! THE PROBLEM IS PRIESTS WHO ARE UNFAITHFUL!!! "
The rest of the truth is that the current predominately homosexual priesthood is exacerbating the problem. The problem is lack men who have not heard the call or care enough to be faithful priests because of the background noise of effeminate priests.
m134e5 stated the partial truth in a previous post "THE PROBLEM IS NOT HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS!!! THE PROBLEM IS PRIESTS WHO ARE UNFAITHFUL!!! "
The rest of the truth is that the current predominately homosexual priesthood is exacerbating the problem. The problem is lack men who have not heard the call or care enough to be faithful priests because of the background noise of effeminate priests.
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Libero
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This is exactly correct. Lets not forget that heterosexual priests did some pretty bad stuff aswell. And talking about ‘the scandal’ well, it would not have been half as bad if the most porbably heterosexual bishops decided to try and cover the whole thing up.
Realistically, a persons sexuality can only play so much of a part, we cannot lay all the blame for anything bbad that has happened to the church thorughout ‘the scandal’ solely on homosxual prisets. It is the unfaithful paedophiles that cause the major problems.
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contemplative
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Celibacy was encouraged in the Bible, yes, but a married clergy is also an ancient practice of the Church, we know that at least one of the Apostles was married.
I do not see what you are saying here though.
It is the Church that calls. It doesn’t matter if we feel that we have a calling as no one has the right to expect to be ordained to Holy Orders. If the Church, though a Bishop or Religious Superior, does not call one forward for ordination, then there is no call.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Did we? There is no proof to this nor is there really any way to prove it.
And it is this type of attitude that chases young men away from the idea of discerning a religious vocation.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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The “sex scandal” really only occured in the USA, so I do not see makeing a guildline such as is being talked about here for the whole Church as this seems to be an American issue.
Also the “sex scandal” was not “unfaithful pedophiles (spelling corrected) that cause the major problems” as pedophilia is a psychosexual disorder in which an adult’s arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The “sex scandal” was predominatly caused by sexual contact with postpubescent children, so it was of a homosexual nature. Very different issue.
But the main thing is that this was caused by unfaithful men who were supported by their bishops. I do not think the bishops had any ill intent. I thnk the bishops based their decisions on unreliable sources, psychologists, who look at this “disorder” in a different way. Yes the bishops were wrong but I do not think the constant harping on that does any service. They know they did wrong and are moving forward, we must do so as well.
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contemplative
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How best can you explain gross sexual misconduct over the past 3 or 4 decades? How best can you explain why so many young men and boys were sexually abused over and over again by the same priests? How best can you explain why so many knowledgable bishops and priests turned their heads and hearts while innocent people suffered?
And yes,
I wouldn’t call it an ‘attitude’ but rather a legitimate observation. This observation may very well be a huge deterent of men discerning religious vocations.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
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Again, there is no call until the Church calls.
Also I do not think it is the background noise that you state.
I think its the background noise of those who say all priests are gay or that only a gay man would want to be a priest. Which is the message you, and others here, are sending even if you do not intend to.
Try listening to the people in the pews, you will find that this view is out there and expressed. Parents make this sort of comment and do not realize that their children can hear them.
Another issue is the way people treat priests and religious and what they have to say about them. Children can hear a lot of this and this is how they learn. It is no wonder that vocations are down in places. The children are learning all the wrong things. Just look where parents priorities are, thats what children learn.
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