Vatican envoy: 'no further room for denial' on climate change [CC]

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So a layperson should ignore the Church on this issue and listen to the Heartland Institute on this issue? Why?
Um, I don’t receive information about so-called-AGW from the Heartland Institute. We faithful are allowed to have our own informed opinions about science. I would say it’s as safe to not use the Church on this issue as it is for me not to use the opinion of the Church on my choice of non linear transmission line transformers, I-beam design or which brand of pipette I should use.

Why? Because they are not subject matter experts on these things, and it’s not a matter of Catholic doctrine.
 
Um, I don’t receive information about so-called-AGW from the Heartland Institute. We faithful are allowed to have our own informed opinions about science. I would say it’s as safe to not use the Church on this issue as it is for me not to use the opinion of the Church on my choice of non linear transmission line transformers, I-beam design or which brand of pipette I should use.

Why? Because they are not subject matter experts on these things, and it’s not a matter of Catholic doctrine.
Ah, but I take it you are an expert on non-linear transmission line transformers. So if you are also an expert on long-term climate effects from increased CO2 in the atmosphere, then perhaps you would have a case to prefer your own opinion over that of the Vatican envoy.

So tell me, which anti-AGW organization do you receive your information from? And why are they to be trusted more than pro-AGW scientists and the Vatican envoy?
 
Ah, but I take it you are an expert on non-linear transmission line transformers. So if you are also an expert on long-term climate effects from increased CO2 in the atmosphere, then perhaps you would have a case to prefer your own opinion over that of the Vatican envoy.

So tell me, which anti-AGW organization do you receive your information from? And why are they to be trusted more than pro-AGW scientists and the Vatican envoy?
I am also an expert on the local effects of gravity, as most adults are. Having done a little research on the good Archbishop myself, I am confident that I would not engage him to design a transimpedance amplifier, build a bridge, or tell me about the horrors of AGW; he is not competent to advise me technically on these things. I can read, I have designed experiments, models, and have an understanding of practical science and engineering. Of course I would prefer my informed opinion to that of the Vatican envoy.

Sources? I do a lot of reading. Presumably like you, I have access to journals and papers discussing the various aspects of things climate, or virtually any other subject. Whatever got into your head that I subscribe to these “organizations” for my information? If I were you I’d have that looked at, it could be serious.🙂
 
Ah, but I take it you are an expert on non-linear transmission line transformers. So if you are also an expert on long-term climate effects from increased CO2 in the atmosphere, then perhaps you would have a case to prefer your own opinion over that of the Vatican envoy.

So tell me, which anti-AGW organization do you receive your information from? And why are they to be trusted more than pro-AGW scientists and the Vatican envoy?
What training does a Bishop get that would hem more credible on AGW than anyone else?
 
Originally Posted by KSU View Post
As Ridgerunner said (and as you already knew), “Sometimes some of them are. They’re just men.”

That’s how Jesus set up His Church; with human beings–beings who can be manipulated into believing anything. But that also is why the Holy Spirit led the Church to establish the discipline of avoiding entanglements with what is the competency of laymen. It often seems that the better a person is (such as a member of the clergy), the more naive he can be.

One would think the Oxford Dictionary had MMGW in mind when defining “manipulate”:
2.control or influence (a person or situation) cleverly, unfairly, or unscrupulously: “the masses were deceived and manipulated by a tiny group” OxfordDictionaries
If that is the position you are taking then I submit that the posters on CAF (like you and I) are “just men” or “just women”, and are also easily manipulated…What makes you think you are immune from such manipulation when even our bishops are not?
"bishops"? And I’m not including myself in the group of good but naive persons such as Abp Tomasi, so climate alarmists have not been able to manipulate me. You, on the other hand, according to my theory, are likely a very good person to be so easily manipulated by dishonest politicians and public grant-dependent charlatans.😉
 
The USA is the world’s second largest emitter of greenhouse gases.

https://iektkj.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/screen-shot-2014-12-29-at-01-19-51.png

And is the largest consumer of oil at 18,690,000 barrels of oil per day
“Emitters” - they emit things. Emitting doesn’t say what is emitted, for what purpose, nor what compensations may offset the emissions (assuming they are being or even should be offset). If the biggest emitter produced no more than the smallest emitter, one might be justified in scolding the biggest one. But if the biggest emitter produces a thousand times more (good products, etc.) than the smallest, then a scolding would be counter-productive and possibly ill-informed.

As we juggle statistics, it’s interesting to compare Canada’s role as a world-destroyer. In the chart above is the 9th in producing emissions. In this chart - wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_emissions.png - the first! What gives? The method of measurements, and of course what is actually being measured.

In terms of measuring a nation of 350 million people against a nation with one-tenth that population, it may be somewhat balanced to have the larger population emit 10 times as much GBH, doesn’t it? In fact, Canada emits more GBH “per capita” than the US does.

The U.S. ranks even lower on the scare-pole when it is the “intensity” of emissions that is being address: wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/emissions_intensity.png

This is really not particularly important to me personally. I recognize that people do things, produce, eat, fabricate, build planes and spaceships and hospitals, manufacture homes and and iron lungs and schoolbooks, raise crops and poultry and a billion other things to make life liveable, comfortable, enjoyable, and rewarding. I have a deeply-rooted doubt that anything including nuclear explosions that mankind does in the next one hundred years will have an eternal negative impact on the earth. Nature has proven hardier than our roads, bridges, buildings, bombs and wars, and the oceans chew up oil spills and spit them out. I am all for Mother Nature. But I am also all for mankind exercising its right and duty to “rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth.”
 
“Emitters” - they emit things. Emitting doesn’t say what is emitted.
It says GHG (Greenhouse gases) both with and without including LUCF (Land Use Change and Forestry).
, for what purpose, nor what compensations may offset the emissions (assuming they are being or even should be offset). If the biggest emitter produced no more than the smallest emitter, one might be justified in scolding the biggest one. But if the biggest emitter produces a thousand times more (good products, etc.) than the smallest, then a scolding would be counter-productive and possibly ill-informed.
You are omitting an important part of the ethics of that analysis. If there is a cost associated with the emission of greenhouse gases, that cost is by necessity going to be born by all peoples. Therefore if you want to set that cost off against the benefit derived from that activity, as you are doing, you would have to assume that such a benefit is also going to be shared by all peoples equally. That most assuredly is not the case. The “production” you speak of by the US is almost entirely for internal consumption and the benefit of the people of the US. Therefore you can’t go to someone in Bangladesh and say “It is OK that we saddle you with the cost of our greenhouse gas emissions because in so doing we are fueling our cars and furnaces and air conditioners.”
As we juggle statistics, it’s interesting to compare Canada’s role as a world-destroyer. In the chart above is the 9th in producing emissions. In this chart - wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_emissions.png - the first! What gives?
It is no great mystery. As you noted below, it is the difference between overall emissions and per capita emissions.
In terms of measuring a nation of 350 million people against a nation with one-tenth that population, it may be somewhat balanced to have the larger population emit 10 times as much GBH, doesn’t it? In fact, Canada emits more GBH “per capita” than the US does.
Oh, good. We can relax. We’re not number one. We’re only number two.
The U.S. ranks even lower on the scare-pole when it is the “intensity” of emissions that is being address: wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/emissions_intensity.png
Yes, this goes back to your first (flawed) ethics analysis. The fact that we use those emission to do such great things for our GDP (for our own benefit, mostly) is of no comfort to the majority of people of this world who will have to bear the costs of those emissions without enjoying the benefits so created nearly as much as we do.
I have a deeply-rooted doubt that anything including nuclear explosions that mankind does in the next one hundred years will have an eternal negative impact on the earth. Nature has proven hardier than our roads, bridges, buildings, bombs and wars, and the oceans chew up oil spills and spit them out.
Oh, nature will survive, but quite possibly without us. Or if we do survive, it may be in a world that appears not to have very good stewards.
 
In terms of measuring a nation of 350 million people against a nation with one-tenth that population, it may be somewhat balanced to have the larger population emit 10 times as much GBH, doesn’t it? In fact, Canada emits more GBH “per capita” than the US does.
Population does matter. An industrialized nation of 350 million will by its very nature produce more emissions of all kinds than a nation of 3 million, which could in fact have much ‘dirtier’ factories. Another reason for viewing statistics circumspectly.

I always seem to get the impression that industrialization is the bogeyman, and de-industrialization is the solution. But I really don’t want to live in a small farming community.
 
Population does matter. An industrialized nation of 350 million will by its very nature produce more emissions of all kinds than a nation of 3 million, which could in fact have much ‘dirtier’ factories. Another reason for viewing statistics circumspectly.
If, by “circumspectly” you mean “intelligently”, I agree.
I always seem to get the impression that industrialization is the bogeyman, and de-industrialization is the solution.
I don’t hear anyone calling for de-industrialization (except maybe the Amish). What I hear is a call for more advanced industrialization.
 
"As we juggle statistics, it’s interesting to compare Canada’s role as a world-destroyer. In the chart above is the 9th in producing emissions. In this chart - wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/per_capita_emissions.png - the first! What gives? The method of measurements, and of course what is actually being measured.

In terms of measuring a nation of 350 million people against a nation with one-tenth that population, it may be somewhat balanced to have the larger population emit 10 times as much GBH, doesn’t it? In fact, Canada emits more GBH “per capita” than the US does.

The U.S. ranks even lower on the scare-pole when it is the “intensity” of emissions that is being address: wri.org/sites/default/files/uploads/emissions_intensity.png
No surprise that Canada’s per capita emissions exceed those of the U.S. After all, it gets extremely cold in Canada in the winter, and it’s a very long haul to bring Chinese goods from a port in B.C. to a consumer on Grand Manan.

So, what are we to do? Tell the Canadians that they really must reduce their home temperatures to 45 degrees or all move to B.C. to save on transportation fuel?

Another thing, though, ought to be considered. Canada is pretty good, as I understand it, in environmental preservation. The great likelihood is that the NET emissions from Canada are probably negative. In other words, the fields and forests of Canada likely sequester more carbon than the humans produce. And doubtless a good part of the reason for that is the care and preservation with which Canada treats its environment.

And in the U.S.? Are Americans net emitters or net sequesterers? As agricultural practices, forestry, etc improve (which they are doing, and rapidly) in such a way as to sequester more carbon dioxide, where does one line cross the other?

And if a nation is a net sequesterer, does it really have an obligation to undertake needless suffering in order to make up for the profligate practices of a society (like China) that resolutely plows forward in emitting CO2 and who knows what all else?
 
In other words, the fields and forests of Canada likely sequester more carbon than the humans produce.
If they are sequestering more carbon than they emit, where is all that sequestered carbon going? It might be going into the wood of the forests, but only if the total mass of trees is continuously growing, and fast. If they are merely replacing trees as fast as they cut them down, the best we can say is that activity is carbon neutral. As for the fields, they are not sequesters, because every atom of carbon that gets temporarily incorporated into the plants is, within a year, turning back into CO2 in the form of some animal’s respiration who ate the food, or in the form of decaying compost in the fields. It is very hard to really sequester carbon in any permanent sense. As an aside, burning dead trees does not add to the carbon footprint in the long run. Those trees were going to rot into CO2 whether they are burned or not. So we might as well burn them and benefit from the energy. Fossil fuels are different though, because they started out perfectly sequestered before we mined them or pumped them out of the ground.
 
If they are sequestering more carbon than they emit, where is all that sequestered carbon going? It might be going into the wood of the forests, but only if the total mass of trees is continuously growing, and fast. If they are merely replacing trees as fast as they cut them down, the best we can say is that activity is carbon neutral. As for the fields, they are not sequesters, because every atom of carbon that gets temporarily incorporated into the plants is, within a year, turning back into CO2 in the form of some animal’s respiration who ate the food, or in the form of decaying compost in the fields. It is very hard to really sequester carbon in any permanent sense. As an aside, burning dead trees does not add to the carbon footprint in the long run. Those trees were going to rot into CO2 whether they are burned or not. So we might as well burn them and benefit from the energy. Fossil fuels are different though, because they started out perfectly sequestered before we mined them or pumped them out of the ground.
I respectfully disagree that forestry is carbon neutral. Tree “farming” certainly does sequester more carbon if one responsibly harvests trees. No question about it, since “adolescent” trees are the big carbon eaters and also the fast growers. Trees vary a lot from species to species and from place to place, but around here, at least, and with the oak varieties (it’s mostly oaks and hickories here) the “fast growers” are the “15x15s”; that is, 15 inches in diameter, fifteen inches above the ground. They can grow more in ten years than a much bigger tree can grow in a century.

But then, unless the forest is neglected, the wood gets turned into houses, furniture, plywood, paper and all sorts of things that do not generally return any significant amount of carbon to the atmosphere.

Timber companies typically have forests in “rotation” all the time. In doing that, they are continually removing carbon from the atmosphere, both in the growth of the trees themselves and in the removal of the wood. Farmers and ranchers who care about their forests tend to do the same thing, but by natural planting in some places like here where the native hardwoods sprout again from the roots of removed trees. It’s true the root systems remain in the ground, but the decaying process is very slow and most of the carbon remains in the ground for a long time.

I will also disagree about grasses. What many do not realize is that the root system is dependent on the blade surface. A person who maintains proper blade height for good photosynthesis is putting a lot of the carbon below the surface of the soil. Roots do change and decompose, but it’s a very long process, depending on the kind of grass one has, because the roots do not die out from season to season. Some of those systems are immense. In addition, proper maintenance of some grasses (particularly some fescues and warm season grasses) are “bunch grasses” that “soil build” by generating woody or nearly woody growth close to the soil surface that stays. As the soil builds, much of the carbon stays.

Studies show that cattle return to the soil about 80% of the nutrients they take in. Sure, they breathe. But they also sequester carbon in their bodies. Humans consume it. Humans die and are buried in concrete vaults.

And the manure and urine do decompose. But they too are “soil builders” and persist as such for a very long time with proper management.

Some practices are superior to others. If, for example, one lets seed stems decompose in the air, there is fast carbon release. If, however, they’re mashed into the ground, they become part of the soil and are very slow to release carbon.

I understand what you’re saying, but my real point was that while CO2 is being released into the atmosphere by a great number of things, it is also being captured. I have yet to see any study establishing that, e.g., the population of the U.S. (let alone Canada) is a net emitter. And none of that even takes into consideration wild animal decomposition into the soil, recycling by meat and carrion eaters, rain, bodies of water, limestone sequestration, improved sequestration through management, or anything else that can affect CO2 in the atmosphere.
 
I respectfully disagree that forestry is carbon neutral. Tree “farming” certainly does sequester more carbon if one responsibly harvests trees. No question about it, since “adolescent” trees are the big carbon eaters and also the fast growers. Trees vary a lot from species to species and from place to place, but around here, at least, and with the oak varieties (it’s mostly oaks and hickories here) the “fast growers” are the “15x15s”; that is, 15 inches in diameter, fifteen inches above the ground. They can grow more in ten years than a much bigger tree can grow in a century.

But then, unless the forest is neglected, the wood gets turned into houses, furniture, plywood, paper and all sorts of things that do not generally return any significant amount of carbon to the atmosphere.
Yes, while I was on my bike ride, thinking about my posting, I realized that house framing, furniture, etc. are a big hole in my argument about trees. They can indeed be net sequesterers of carbon. I guess we’ll just have to see if anyone has estimated whether they are enough to balance power plant emissions.
 
Ah, but I take it you are an expert on non-linear transmission line transformers. So if you are also an expert on long-term climate effects from increased CO2 in the atmosphere, then perhaps you would have a case to prefer your own opinion over that of the Vatican envoy.

So tell me, which anti-AGW organization do you receive your information from? And why are they to be trusted more than pro-AGW scientists and the Vatican envoy?
Heartland did a poll at one of their conferences and 100% of attendees were pro-AGW
  • they believed CO2 is a GHG
  • they believed man is driving up CO2 levels
  • they believed man therefore has some impact on the earth climate system
The Heartland organization and it’s supporters are anti-CAGW Alarmism, not anti-AGW.
Their view is the science is far from settled on the degree of man’s impact, something very different than being anti-AGW.
 
The Vatican’s representative at UN offices in Geneva has proclaimed that there is “no further room for denial” that "human-induced climate change is a scientific reality.
Catholic News | Catholic Culture, the OP’s source, generally is a very reliable source; an excellent quick-read on the Net. In this case, however, the good folks at that site messed up. LeafByNiggle’s favorite Vatican envoy did not proclaim that there is “no further room for denial” that “human-induced climate change is a scientific reality.” What he said, in relevant part, at the “Climate and Health” 68th World Health Assembly meeting in Geneva is this:

QUOTE In this regard, on 28 April 2015, the Holy See exercised its convening capacity, to gather Religious Leaders, Political Leaders, Business Leaders, Scientists and Development Practitioners, at the Vatican, in a workshop on the theme: “Protect the Earth, Dignify Humanity: The Moral Dimensions of Climate Change and Sustainable Humanity.” This historic event was organized by the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the Pontifical Academy of Social Sciences, the Sustainable Development Solutions Network, and Religions for Peace.
These religious leaders and technical experts left no further room for denial under the mistaken guise of so-called religious belief when they declared that human-induced climate change is a scientific reality. END QUOTE en.radiovaticana.va/news/2015/05/25/vatican_nuncio_to_un_speaks_on_climate_change/1146678

The aforesaid group includes the usual suspects–the Justice and Peace and Redistribute the Wealth By Taxing Uncle Sugar crowds. So, we can be absolutely sure that our children will burn up unless we stop using oil and gas and give the UN our money to give to the poor. pass.va/content/scienzesociali/en/events/2014-18/sustainable/statement.html
 
The Heartland organization and it’s supporters are anti-CAGW Alarmism, not anti-AGW.
Their view is the science is far from settled on the degree of man’s impact, something very different than being anti-AGW.
Hear! Hear! to your post on this hot*, if only sketchily** spiritual, topic.

*…hot: disputed, divisive, hotly debated.
**…sketchily: incompletely, imperfectly, existing in form if not substance.
 
It is unfortunate that the Catholic churchmen are starting to use the politicized language of the environmental debate. Deniers and alarmists are the language of political hacks, and it really ought to be beneath moral leaders to be shameless partisans. That is very much the job for the laity, and to the extent that churchmen enter into that kind of language, they lose any status of moral leaders that is their strong suit.

The environmental debate is not really about science either, but about the use and abuse of science in order to push a political agenda. Whether or not the science is settled, it is sound ecological practice to try to limit our impact on the environment, and conserve our resources. There is no real debate about that.
What the debate centers on is the economic system that is best suited to meet the conservation and ecological goals that we all agree on.
 
It is unfortunate that the Catholic churchmen are starting to use the politicized language of the environmental debate. Deniers and alarmists are the language of political hacks, and it really ought to be beneath moral leaders to be shameless partisans. That is very much the job for the laity, and to the extent that churchmen enter into that kind of language, they lose any status of moral leaders that is their strong suit.

The environmental debate is not really about science either, but about the use and abuse of science in order to push a political agenda. Whether or not the science is settled, it is sound ecological practice to try to limit our impact on the environment, and conserve our resources. There is no real debate about that.
What the debate centers on is the economic system that is best suited to meet the conservation and ecological goals that we all agree on.
Amen to that! The good news is that Archbishop Tomasi did not indicate how much of the joint PAS/PASS rhetoric he or the Pope would make their own, and I don’t see many, if any, “churchman” among the signatories:
pass.va/content/scienzesociali/en/events/2014-18/sustainable/statement.html

We will just have to wait to see what the Pope’s “special teaching document on climate justice” says. I hope by then the Vatican Press Office finally will have hired someone who will translate the Pope’s words into English competently. If not, the anti-Catholic secular media, the money-hungry politicians and the grant-hungry “scientists” will have another field day, a la the horrible English translation of EVANGELII GAUDIUM .
 
The Vatican’s representative at UN offices in Geneva has proclaimed that there is “no further room for denial” that "human-induced climate change is a scientific reality."Speaking to a …

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Good! I’m so glad the Church is going strong on this mother-of-all-life issues. Good for the Catholic Church! It is simply wrong to kill innocent people whether thru climate change or any other means.

Those who are afraid their piggy banks will be squeezed, 1st of all, life trumps money (which is just something that facilitates exchanges). The biological-ecological system is fundamental to life; the economy is contingent and instrumental. We need food more than grocery stores, tho grocery stores facilitate getting that food we need.

2nd, if ye seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness all things will be given unto you; that is, strangely enough mitigating climate change saves money and improves one’s well being. Halleluia! Thanks be to God, who grants us what we need.

And we need a life-hospitable climate, healthy air and water, and food. We do not need people denying that we are harming these things by various actions and words. We can most certainly do without that!

Thanks be to God for this wonderful, beautiful Church, that guides us to what we really need…ultimately our heavenly home with our so very gracious God.
 
2nd, if ye seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness all things will be given unto you; that is, strangely enough mitigating climate change saves money and improves one’s well being. Halleluia! Thanks be to God, who grants us what we need.
Mitigating climate change under the currently accepted proposals of the man made global warning accepters does not save money, and it makes people like Al Gore and others very rich, which shoots holes in your reasoning.
 
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