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buffalo
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Only hydrogen.
Vatican evolution congress to exclude creationism, intelligent design
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reggieM
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Darwinism proposes that everything in nature is the product of evolution. This idea makes the Catholic teaching (as previously quoted), *In principium erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum. Et Verbum erat Deus. All things were made through Him and without Him was made nothing that was made. … * “difficult to believe” in the opinion of the former Vatican astronomer, Fr. George Coyne, S.J.
According to Fr. Coyne:
The Holy See is apparently going to try to find some “middle ground” somewhere. Why? If evolution is so certain, then there should be “no debate about it” as Darwinists claim. But the Pontifical Council now feels the need to “clarify” things – because there is, indeed, a debate. Of course there’s an interest to appease the atheistic-science culture of Europe so as not to appear to have another Gallileo case. But to try to explain the world in Darwinian terms is an impossible task.
I wonder if Fr. Coyne will be invited to the discussion. If not, it may be strong evidence that he was fired rather than that he voluntarily resigned.
According to Fr. Coyne:
So, evolution gives us a “very different God”. For Father Coyne, this God is so different that He didn’t know that human beings would eventually evolve. Thus, God is not all-powerful and all-knowing (doctrinally false teaching).
The Holy See is apparently going to try to find some “middle ground” somewhere. Why? If evolution is so certain, then there should be “no debate about it” as Darwinists claim. But the Pontifical Council now feels the need to “clarify” things – because there is, indeed, a debate. Of course there’s an interest to appease the atheistic-science culture of Europe so as not to appear to have another Gallileo case. But to try to explain the world in Darwinian terms is an impossible task.
I wonder if Fr. Coyne will be invited to the discussion. If not, it may be strong evidence that he was fired rather than that he voluntarily resigned.
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Namesake
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Not quite right. Evolution is restricted to biology.
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buffalo
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Right, Fr Coyne feels that God did not know what Adam would look like?
Great question - will he be invited?
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Neil_Anthony
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The idea is not to find middle ground between accept or rejecting evolution. The goal is to look at how the faith and science make sense together.
The Church isn’t going to reject doctrine, or look for a compromise. We don’t have to compromise our beliefs to accept evolution. Stay tuned for the details from the pontifical council.
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reggieM
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What aspects of nature were not produced by evolution?
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Wirraway
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formation of the solar system. Lake Bonneville. anything in nature that’s not life.
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reggieM
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wildleafblower
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ReggieM and Buffalo, Coyne was never fired! It breaks my heart and makes me cry.
Neither of you know much about what Coyne has stated.
I don’t have time to rally around a May pole with either of you. George V. Coyne is Director Emeritus of the Vatican Observatory. He is ‘a member of the International Astronomical Union, the American Astronomical Society, the Astronomical Society of the Pacific, the American Physical Society, the Optical Society of America and the Pontifical Academy of Science’. (1) He is invited to **all **events pertaining to those organizations though he will not be a “speaker” at the upcoming Pontifical Academy of Sciences Plenary Session on “Scientific Insights into the Evolution of the Universe and of Life” (31 October - 4 November 2008).I love Father Coyne and happen to agree with the following two documents which pertain to him. God bless Father Coyne:thumbsup: :
http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/02_Events/Lectures/2006/02_Lecture_2006_0327.pdf
The Pope's Astrophysicist
MEET THE VATICAN PRIEST WHO SCANS THE HEAVENS FOR THE ORIGINS OF THE UNIVERSE. (HEY, GALILEO — WANT A JOB?) We have come to meet the Pope. It’s tourist season, and the Sistine Chapel is punishingly full. Visitors from around the world crowd together, ogling Michelangelo’s ceiling. At the back of...
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Wirraway
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I assumed the topic was biological evolution since that appears to be the subject of the Vatican conference, but I may have misread the comment I was responding to. but you’re right.
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buffalo
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Ohhhh! I have read and listened to just about everything he wrote. Be careful here.ReggieM and Buffalo, Coyne was never fired! It breaks my heart and makes me cry.
I love Father Coyne and happen to agree with the following two documents which pertain to him. God bless Father Coyne:thumbsup: :
http://www.aaas.org/spp/dser/02_Events/Lectures/2006/02_Lecture_2006_0327.pdf
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.12/pope_astro.html?pg=1&topic=&topic_set=
His basic points - the universe is fertile
He has made the point that God did not know the outcome
I do not discredit his achievements.
He may not have been fired, (but a little secret - he was).
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reggieM
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The Magisterium will never lead us astray – that is true.
But sometimes non-Magisterial opinions from the hierarchy can be inaccurate. That’s just something for us to be cautious about. For myself, I have a high degree of skepticism regarding non-official statements about evolution.
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reggieM
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Ok, thanks. Namesake actually raised the objection. As I see it, the point stands – it is claimed that everything in nature is the product of evolution.
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tonyl
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Conflating areas that share a common word does not make them all part of the same package. Besides, your original statement was, “Darwinism proposes that everything in nature is the product of evolution”. Which is clearly not true because Darwin’s theory is restricted to biological evolution of species from previously existing species. He never delved into stellar or chemical evolution.
Stellar evolution is an area of study in Physics. While this science helps explain where some common element originate, it does not play a direct role in the science of biological evolution.
Chemical evolution is an area of study in Chemistry. While this science helps explain how complex molecules can form from simpler ones, it does not play a direct role in what people generally mean when they talk about “evolution”, or common descent.
While it is true that you can chain these together to study how life arose from the matter created in the big bang, saying they are all part of the same package is like saying that physics, biology, and chemisty are all the same subject because there is an increasing area of overlap between those subjects. While true, it’s not particularly useful, and reduces the clarity of communication.
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JReducation
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In the words of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, Darwinism and scripture are not in confict and Fr. Coyne is incorrect.
What the Council seeks to establish is the power of God and the wisdom of God. If we examine evolution, it’s a much more complex process than creationism. What the Church brings to the table is the faith that all of these very complex processes were not accidental, but they were the will and work of the God-head who existed before all things. Therefore, it takes nothing away from God’s knowledge, as Fr. Coyne would suggest.
I have no idea if he was dismissed or resigned. But if he was dismissed from the Commission, this may be the reason. His position is untenable. God’s knowledge and power is not affected by the manner that he chose to create the universe. In fact, the more complex the process the more we learn about God’s power and knowledge.
The reason why the Vatican did not invite the creationists or the intelligent design supporters may be because the Vatican wants to focus on what God did, not how he did it. The creationists and intelligent design folks tend to focus on the how rather than on the wat God did. Scripture focuses on what God did. He created everything that we know and more.
Finally, I would add that we not forget that Pope Pius XII, John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been very clear on the importance of reason in the study and understanding of faith. Benedict goes as far as saying that we cannot separate them and that without reason, we cannot explain revelation or the fullness of truth.
This is not new. The pursuit of reason to shed light on faith dates back to the early Fathers of the Church. The difference is that today we have more information, technology and resources than they had. The Church wants to use these resources.
Fraternally,
JR
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reggieM
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That is an excellent point – you could be right about that. We have to learn more about what God did in nature and with human beings. One of the biggest problems that many people have is accepting God as our Creator. That’s a teaching that needs to be emphasized.
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JReducation
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God as Creator is not about to be abandoned by the Church or any of the monotheistic religions: Christianity, Islam and Judaism.
The point is what God has done. Everything that we learn about what God has done speaks to us about his glory and power.
JR
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edwest2
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wildleafblower
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Buffalo, I don’t wish to derail this topic, but my conscience won’t allow me ignore these slights that you and others have made about George V. Coyne who wasn’t fired. If he had been fired he would not have the title today of Director Emeritus of the Vatican Observatory which clearly states on the url I provided you. Bishop Gerald F. Kicanas said “Father Coyne was beginning a year’s sabbatical. With his active mind and great drive and focus, we can’t envision him as ever being retired.” (1) Father Coyne is well over 70 years old! He is semi-retired and still active in the field of science. Bless his soul.
You obviously didn’t comprehend the links to articles I provided you (nor did another individual) or you, Buffalo, wouldn’t be making a comment, “He has made the point that God did not know the outcome.” You might also remember he is an astrophysicist that doesn’t USE God in a way that would demean God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit nor is he a proponent of creationism or the Intelligent Design movement and neither am I. In defence of Coyne, you along with others may wish to read another article Vatican astronomer says evolution important for insights into God. (2) I hope in the future people will refrain from commenting negatively on such a brillant scientist such as Coyne. Please remember, he was hand picked by a POPE!
I’d personally never insult a Pope.I would like to present a bit of information from The National Academy of Science that I think is relevant to our topic of discussion. I’m extremely proud to present it since Peter Raven (a botantist whom I’ve had the pleasure of knowing) is on the Vatican:Holy See’s Scientific Advisory Committee and a member of the NAS. He was a member of the review committee for the following booklet which I behoove individuals to further review though I have only presented part of page 17:
**Science, Evolution, and Creationism **(2008)
National Academy of Sciences (NAS)
CHAPTER TWO
THE EVIDENCE FOR BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION
*Many areas of science have produced support for biological evolution. Many kinds of evidence have contributed to scientific understanding of biological evolution. Some of this evidence — such as the fossils of long-extinct animals and the geographical distribution of species — was familiar to scientists in the 19th century or earlier. Other forms of evidence — such as comparisons of DNA sequences — became available only in the 20th and 21st centuries.
The evidence for evolution comes **not just from *the biological sciences but also from both historical and modern research in anthropology, astrophysics, chemistry, geology, physics, mathematics, and other scientific disciplines, including the behavioral and social sciences. Astrophysics and geology have demonstrated that the Earth is old enough for biological evolution to have resulted in the species seen today. Physics and chemistry have led to dating methods that have established the timing of key evolutionary events. Studies of other species have revealed not only the physical but also the behavioral continuities among species. Anthropology has provided new insights into human origins and the interactions between biology and cultural factors in shaping human behaviors and social systems. (3)
- catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0604749.htm
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0604749.htm - catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504505.htm
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504505.htm - books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11876&page=17
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11876&page=17
Humm, singing Starry, Starry Night . . .Peace be with ya all ~
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JReducation
Guest
I don’t see any sign here that Fr. Coyne denied God’s knowledge regarding the outcome of evolution. In which case, if he did not deny such Divine knowledge, there is not reason to believe that he was dismissed. Being an older man, it would be reasonable to suspect that he is retired or semi-retired. That has nothing to do with the God’s knowledge or a change in God as suggested before.Buffalo, I don’t wish to derail this topic, but my conscience won’t allow me ignore these slights that you and others have made about George V. Coyne who wasn’t fired. If he had been fired he would not have the title today of Director Emeritus of the Vatican Observatory which clearly states on the url I provided you. Bishop Gerald F. Kicanas said “Father Coyne was beginning a year’s sabbatical. With his active mind and great drive and focus, we can’t envision him as ever being retired.” (1) Father Coyne is well over 70 years old! He is semi-retired and still active in the field of science. Bless his soul.
You obviously didn’t comprehend the links to articles I provided you (nor did another individual) or you, Buffalo, wouldn’t be making a comment, “He has made the point that God did not know the outcome.” You might also remember he is an astrophysicist that doesn’t USE God in a way that would demean God - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit nor is he a proponent of creationism or the Intelligent Design movement and neither am I. In defence of Coyne, you along with others may wish to read another article Vatican astronomer says evolution important for insights into God. (2) I hope in the future people will refrain from commenting negatively on such a brillant scientist such as Coyne. Please remember, he was hand picked by a POPE!
I would like to present a bit of information from The National Academy of Science that I think is relevant to our topic of discussion. I’m extremely proud to present it since Peter Raven (a botantist whom I’ve had the pleasure of knowing) is on the Vatican:Holy See’s Scientific Advisory Committee and a member of the NAS. He was a member of the review committee for the following booklet which I behoove individuals to further review though I have only presented part of page 17:
**Science, Evolution, and Creationism **(2008)
National Academy of Sciences (NAS)
CHAPTER TWO
THE EVIDENCE FOR BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION
*Many areas of science have produced support for biological evolution. Many kinds of evidence have contributed to scientific understanding of biological evolution. Some of this evidence — such as the fossils of long-extinct animals and the geographical distribution of species — was familiar to scientists in the 19th century or earlier. Other forms of evidence — such as comparisons of DNA sequences — became available only in the 20th and 21st centuries.
The evidence for evolution comes **not just from ***the biological sciences but also from both historical and modern research in anthropology, astrophysics, chemistry, geology, physics, mathematics, and other scientific disciplines, including the behavioral and social sciences. Astrophysics and geology have demonstrated that the Earth is old enough for biological evolution to have resulted in the species seen today. Physics and chemistry have led to dating methods that have established the timing of key evolutionary events. Studies of other species have revealed not only the physical but also the behavioral continuities among species. Anthropology has provided new insights into human origins and the interactions between biology and cultural factors in shaping human behaviors and social systems. (3)
I’m buying myself a big telescope to gaze upon the stars.
- catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0604749.htm
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0604749.htm- catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504505.htm
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0504505.htm- books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11876&page=17
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11876&page=17
Peace be with ya all ~
What I’m reading here is that he believes exactly what the Holy Father is trying to show, the more we know abour evolution, the more we know about God’s greatness.
JR
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