Vatican evolution congress to exclude creationism, intelligent design

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buffalo said:
The beautiful doctrine of creation, the constant teaching of the Church, has not been hijacked.
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“Creationists” like those at AiG and the Kolbe Center have hijacked the term in exclusively opposing it to evolution. When I, as a Roman Catholic, can no longer refer to myself as a “creationist” without being looked at as if I’m a squirrel-hunting, edentulate, hillbilly with a hick accent, then I would say this lovely, ancient term has been hijacked.:eek: I am a creationist who sees God working through the dynamic processes of cosmological, physical, chemical, nebular, stellar, planetary, geological, biological, and neural evolution.👍

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
“Creationists” like those at AiG and the Kolbe Center have hijacked the term in exclusively opposing it to evolution. When I, as a Roman Catholic, can no longer refer to myself as a “creationist” without being looked at as if I’m a squirrel-hunting, edentulate, hillbilly with a hick accent, then I would say this lovely, ancient term has been hijacked.:eek: I am a creationist who sees God working through the dynamic processes of cosmological, physical, chemical, nebular, stellar, planetary, geological, biological, and neural evolution.👍

StAnastasia
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The Dogmas of the Catholic Church and its constant teachings have a few areas that have to be addressed.
  1. Eve coming from Adam
  2. Preternatural gifts
  3. Bodily immortality
  4. Freedom from suffering
  5. Infused knowledge
Why Human Evolution can never
become part of the Deposit of Faith
 
To StAnastasia -

The biology text and secular sources attribute nothing to God. The average person is inclined to believe they are nothing but another animal. Thanks to an increasingly secular media, they are further inclined to believe that chemicals created genes and then genes, along with natural selection, became god. Our genes, not us, choose. Our genes and our environment are all we are. God? Religion? How irrational! We are not going to let myths and superstition rule our lives! (Just like in Soviet Russia.) The media has become the propaganda arm of atheism. Scientists like PZ Myers, Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins write books to tell Christian Americans that God is a Delusion.

As Catholics, we must have the audacity to say we are not haphazard mistakes.

bringyou.to/apologetics/p81.htm

Pope Benedict XVI

Monod nonetheless finds the possibility for evolution in the fact that in the very propagation of the project there can be mistakes in the act of transmission. Because nature is conservative, these mistakes, once having come into existence, are carried on. Such mistakes can add up, and from the adding up of mistakes something new can arise. Now an astonishing conclusion follows: It was in this way that the whole world of living creatures, and human beings themselves, came into existence. We are the product of “haphazard mistakes.”

What response shall we make to this view? It is the affair of the natural sciences to explain how the tree of life in particular continues to grow and how new branches shoot out from it. This is not a matter for faith. But we must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
To StAnastasia -

The biology text and secular sources attribute nothing to God.
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Why should they? My son’s algebra book attributes nothing about quadratic equations to God. As a Roman Catholic, naturally I recognize God as being the author of mathematics and everything else in the universe. In a pluralistic culture, however, it would be absurd to preface each (or any) section of a public high school algebra text with a note to the effect that it is God (or Allah, or JHWH, or Brahman, or Tepeu and Gucumatz, or Manitou) who is responsible for the mathematical truths that follow.:rolleyes:

StAnastasia
 
In an increasingly atheistic media culture, science is being used to promote atheism under the pseudonym “reason.”

God bless,
Ed
 
buffalo said:
Huh? Where is that in the article? Did you even read it?
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lay off the ad homs, pal.

"Jesuit Father Marc Leclerc, a philosophy professor at the Gregorian, told Catholic News Service Sept. 16 that organizers “wanted to create a conference that was strictly scientific” and that discussed rational philosophy and theology along with the latest scientific discoveries.

He said arguments “that cannot be critically defined as being science, or philosophy or theology did not seem feasible to include in a dialogue at this level and, therefore, for this reason we did not think to invite” supporters of creationism and intelligent design."
 
StAnastasia said:
Wirraway, you are right, but I’m still bothered that YECs have hijacked the beautiful Catholic doctrine of creation, which theologians (except for the Kolbe Centrics) now interpret in light of modern science. Instead, the YECs shoehorn this ancient doctrine into a pre-modern, geocentric world view, and expect to be welcomed at the table of discourse. You might as well expect the Royal Astronomical Society to sit humbly at the feet of Ptolemy and defer to his worldview!

StAnastasia
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its true that the internet gives them a voice, but they’re not taken seriously outside their own small spheres and especially not in the real world of peer reviewed academia. YEC proponents are parasitic. they predict nothing, they bring nothing to the table, but they, as you well say, shoehorn new discoveries to fit their world view. the fact that nothing that can be shown that would move them off their beliefs demonstrates that their views are not falsifiable and therefore not science.
 
Wirraway said:
lay off the ad homs, pal.

"Jesuit Father Marc Leclerc, a philosophy professor at the Gregorian, told Catholic News Service Sept. 16 that organizers “wanted to create a conference that was strictly scientific” and that discussed rational philosophy and theology along with the latest scientific discoveries.

He said arguments “that cannot be critically defined as being science, or philosophy or theology did not seem feasible to include in a dialogue at this level and, therefore, for this reason we did not think to invite” supporters of creationism and intelligent design."
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Are we talking about this article?
 
edwest2 said:
In an increasingly atheistic media culture, science is being used to promote atheism under the pseudonym "reason."God bless,Ed
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What are we to do with these atheistic geometers and algebraists?

StAnastasia
 
StAnastasia said:
“Creationists” like those at AiG and the Kolbe Center have hijacked the term in exclusively opposing it to evolution. When I, as a Roman Catholic, can no longer refer to myself as a “creationist” without being looked at as if I’m a squirrel-hunting, edentulate, hillbilly with a hick accent, then I would say this lovely, ancient term has been hijacked.:eek: I am a creationist who sees God working through the dynamic processes of cosmological, physical, chemical, nebular, stellar, planetary, geological, biological, and neural evolution.👍

StAnastasia
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I would certainly like to hear your explaination about:
  1. What God created
  2. How God’s power has influenced nature and evolution
Personally, I don’t think we should ridicule people for their language dialect, or call them names like “hillbilly”. We may well find such people attaining a greater degree of glory than many who think they have a sophisticated understanding of God’s ways.
 
StAnastasia said:
As a Roman Catholic, naturally I recognize God as being the author of mathematics and everything else in the universe.
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God is the author of the text you just wrote?
In a pluralistic culture, however, it would be absurd to preface each (or any) section of a public high school algebra text with a note to the effect that it is God (or Allah, or JHWH, or Brahman, or Tepeu and Gucumatz, or Manitou) who is responsible for the mathematical truths that follow.:
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Apparently, you don’t see the metaphysical and religious problems that have fueled the on-going debate about Darwinism – a debate that is recognized by the Holy See as one that needs clarification and definition.

For myself, I wouldn’t call the creationist and ID beliefs of Pope Benedict and Cardinal Schoenborn (among many other of our clergy) to be “absurd”.
 
reggieM said:
I think you’re understating his opposition to Darwinism, but he did indeed find weaknesses in the theory. This is in striking opposition to the scientific consensus today which finds no such weaknesses (in fact, they won’t permit weakenesses of the theory to be discussed in schools).

Well, it depends on what you mean by “modern science”. I don’t think there’s much of a definition for that term. Supposedly, “science is science”, modern or not. Or one could say that the Kolbe Center is part of modern science itself.
I would be quite concerned that “modern science” is dominated by atheistic thought (considering 70% of modern scientists are atheists). I’m quite sure St. Maximillian would not be happy about that at all.

I think you introduced the idea that the Kolbe Center claims that St. Maximillian opposes modern science. From what I read, that is not their position. For that matter, I don’t think the Kolbe Center itself rejects “modern science” since they believe that they are offering their own scientific views.

Again, you introduced this notion. Nobody said that his name is used to reject modern science.

He would have quite a lot to fight among the Darwinists of today.

Yes, exactly. You’re arguing against a point that hasn’t been validated in the first place.
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I believe that you missed something. I did not say that the Kolbe Centre opposes modern science or that they claim Friar Maximilian opposes modern science. St.Anastasia introduced this into the thread. She said that the Kolbe Centre laughs a heliocentrism and Copernicus and she asked if this would be the thinking of Friar Maximilian.

I simply resonded that IF they do so, because I don’t know them, then they are not representing Friar Maximilian’s approach to modern science.

I did not introduce into the thread that the Kolbe Centre opposes modern science. That was another poster. I responded to that poster based on the information that she posted.

Thank you and I hope this clears up the misunderstanding.

On another note, I don’t believe that Friar Maximilian would be opposed to working alongside scientists who are atheists for two reasons. 1) The Church does not oppose such cooperation. 2) His opposition is to atheism, not reason.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
JR 🙂
 
To JR,

The words reason and atheism are now interchangeable. The other areas of reason that we still need, according to Pope Benedict, are found in the deposit of faith held by the Church. Divine providence is a critical ingredient in what science calls evolution. All Catholics should be aware of this.

God bless,
Ed
 
edwest2 said:
To JR,

The words reason and atheism are now interchangeable. The other areas of reason that we still need, according to Pope Benedict, are found in the deposit of faith held by the Church. Divine providence is a critical ingredient in what science calls evolution. All Catholics should be aware of this.

God bless,
Ed
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I agree completely with the Holy Father. I disagree that reason and atheism are interchangeable, even if atheists use them interchangeablly.

I also understand why the Holy Father wants scientists who are atheists at this congress. It’s for the same reason that at every investigation of a miracle at least one scientist who is a non believer is included in the research. It keeps balance and minimizes bias. This has been a practice of the Church since the late 1800s in cases of miracles and canonizations. Lourdes is a perfect example. The Vatican’s Scientific Commission is another. Many atheists are invited to join, including Steven Hawkin.

The idea is not to promote atheism, but to preserve the honesty and integrity of the scientific method.

In the end, the Church makes its pronouncements based on faith enlightened by facts and discards those ideas that although presented as facts are really ideologies or personal opinions that cannot be substantiated.

I’m not at all concerned about this meeting. I think it will bear good fruit for the Catholic community, especially for those who are interested in this subject.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
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