Vatican evolution congress to exclude creationism, intelligent design

[JReducation]

Man does not “come into biological existence” without possessing a rational soul. In order for man to possess a rational soul, there must be an “ontological leap” (quoting Pope John Paul II’s phrase).

I think there are many evolutionists who are trying to kill off Adam and Eve. The vast majority believe that they have already done so.

This is true. But if we’re sticking to the OP, the question is why is the Holy Father and the Council excluding Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents.

In trying to respond to this question, I say that the Holy Father seems to be interested in the biological evolution without the theological complexities of the discussion. He has the theological answer. He is more interested in the biological answer.

Remember, we’re dealing here with a holy man who is in love with reason. He wants reasons for the biological evolution. He’s not looking to give the Church a new theology of creation. We have that. He is looking to tie the lose ends together, the theology of creation with the biological sciences. To use his own words, faith and reason go together. Everything has a rational explanation that leads to God.

I don’t know if this helps. Hope so . . .

Fraternally,

JR

 

[jdnation]

The reason is pretty much simple. The Church has barred creationists and ID advocates from the discussion because it’s currently being led by men who have an a-priori accepted belief in macro-evolution and compromised it with our faith because plenty of people still suffer under the delusion that there is actual evidence that macro-evoluion is true. There isn’t any. Macro-evolution isn’t scientific at all, it’s no more scientific than Biblical creationism or ID. Except Creationism better accounts for the world than evolution ever could. It all depends on what your starting philosophy is and you interpret scientific evidence to fit your worldview. Macro-evolution is simply an naturalistic philosophy disguised as science. A closer look at Evolutionary principles and beliefs show that they too rely on thigns just as miraculous and unexplainable to justify themselves. But because they ignore God and the ‘supernatural’ they’re convinced they’re somehow more ‘scientific.’

Belief in macro-evolution over the clear references to special creation by Genesis, in Exodus, throughout Jewish tradition, taught by Paul to the gentiles, and affirmed by Jesus Christ Himself is the great apostacy of our times. The belief that God used a process involving violence, death, disease and bloodshed over long periods of time to create the world before creating man and woman and before sin existed is a direct contradiction to our faith that God is NOT the author of death and that the suffering and problems that exist in our world is a result of Sin and rejection of God. It is the result of the Fall. It changed a perfect world that God made into the world that we see today. Evolutionists reject this and assume that the fallen and corrupt world we see today has always been in existence. Theistic evolutionists unwittingly make God responsible for it. God is NOT responsible for it. He didn’t send His son Christ to die to save us from a world of death and suffering that He has been responsible for creating all along. Our first parents sin brought these problems into the world, and we’ve been perpetuating it ever since. Christ sacrificed himself to save us from sin and thus from death and suffering. After the final judgment the world will be destroyed and restored to what it was like before the Fall. There will be no more death or suffering. The Tree of Life will grow again abundantly.

If the Church thinks that by merging two opposable philosophies of naturalism and Christianity together they’ll somehow come up with something that’ll convince evolutionists to convert is laughable. They’re being nothing more than ‘useful idiots’ to the evolutionary establishment that are practically all athiests who wish the masses to more and more subscribe to their ‘enlightened’ worldviews and fund their research and hypothesizing. These people will sooner believe that, in light of finding no evidence for working evolutionary mechanisms, that life came into existence elsewhere in the universe and seeded our planet or that intelligent aliens created us… but God? Oh no, that’s ridiculous!

The Church should grow a spine and stop catering to evolutionists for fear that if we take a position contrary to the scientific consensus of our day that our reputation will be in ruin… Since when have we ever bowed down to the times and other institutions? Since when have our beliefs ever fully been in line with mainstream scientists opinions? What next? Shall we also accept the scientific consensus that anyone rising from the dead is impossible? It’s no wonder quite a few Catholics are afraid to defend the resurrection as an actual event and prefer to focus on sanitized messages of love that Jesus supposedly meant… And you wonder why there’s a lack of respect for the Eucharist…

 

[StAnastasia]

The reason is pretty much simple. The Church has barred creationists and ID advocates from the discussion because it’s currently being led by men who have an a-priori accepted belief in macro-evolution and compromised it with our faith because plenty of people still suffer under the delusion that there is actual evidence that macro-evoluion is true. There isn’t any. Macro-evolution isn’t scientific at all.

jdnation, the reason is that theologians and scientists in Rome recognize that as an explanation for biological diversity on earth, evolution has gone from strength to strength since 1859. While science has spun off a profusion of discoveries, biblical creationism as produced precisely nothing. Not a single discovery! Zero! Zip! Nichts! Nada! Rien! ничего! Niente!

To believe that evolution is wrong is to believe that hundreds of thousands of biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, geologists, physicists, biochemists, and other scientists are participating in a conspiracy that would make those about Roswell, the JFK assassination, and Bush bombing the World Trade Center look like bungled episodes of Scooby Doo!

At the same time Catholics who have a sophisticated understanding of doctrine, faith, liturgy, and sacraments know that there is nothing in evolution that challenges belief in God. I expect this congress in Rome next March will produce some very interesting documents, and I look forward to participating myself. I hope to hear this week about my application to participate.

Prayerfully yours
StAnastasia

 

[edwest2]

To jdnation -

I understand you. Here, in brief, is what is happening. Scientists, both in the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and outside of it, provide the Vatican with information and documents. Both Pope Benedict and Cardinal Schoenborn are clearly aware of their atheist tendencies. Both of them are clearly aware because scientists are telling them that evolutionary theory negates a role for God. God has been eliminated from the equation, That is clearly understood. That is why Cardinal Schoenborn made the statement that some people think the Pope is a satisfied Evolutionist and he goes on to say, this is not true. What is buried here, on this forum, is the statement articulated in Human Persons Created in the Image of God that no evolutionary process could ever occur without divine providence.

What is also buried here is the rest of the information regarding Pope John Paul II’s often repeated quote about evolution being more than a hypothesis. What is usually left out is that he was talking about many theories of evolution. To be blunt: the current textbook theory of evolution is not acceptable to the Church. This is why Pope Benedict wrote that while leaving to science certain details, we, meaning Catholics, must have the audacity to say we are not haphazard mistakes. This is directly opposite from the purely random and natural selection formula of the textbook. But no one here can mention that without being ignored or ridiculed. I could link you to various comments made about the Pope and the Catholic Church whenever he says things like this but I would be banned - it consists mostly of profanity and blasphemy and comments like “the Pope just wants to keep his job.”

Unlike the internet, the Catholic Church takes the (name removed by moderator)ut of scientists at face value but does not limit itself to strictly science. Galileo is often brought up in connection with this but his story is usually distorted. The point is, even the scientists of his day weren’t sure he was right, but he insisted on running around and saying, it’s true! It’s a fact! I’m right! The Church cautioned him about this and he was the one to keep the conflict going. He was out of control.

So, I ask you to realize that the Church is carefully, very carefully, weighing the evidence. And unlike the evolutionists here and elsewhere, they are very interested in looking at the flaws, the missing information, the contradictions and the conclusions that scientists cannot demonstrate as being true.

Like yourself, I know that the constant, unceasing noise being created here to ‘just say yes’ to evolution is not about science. It is about creating a society of scientific atheists. The scientists becoming the new priests and the laboratories and research institutes becoming the new cathedrals.

The Pope knows this. That is why he said that evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory. The evolutionists here cannot conceive of a one billion plus Catholic Church not believing that every living thing assembled itself from uncaused, unintelligent and unguided forces and dies to nothing. They can’t even write it down on this forum. It might get people thinking. It might make them doubt the ‘fact’ of evolution. Can’t have that.

Peace,
Ed

 

[reggieM]

I expect this congress in Rome next March will produce some very interesting documents, and I look forward to participating myself. I hope to hear this week about my application to participate.

I find that amazing. But it’s really not surprising.

I can reflect on a few comments jdnation just made:

The Church has barred creationists and ID advocates from the discussion because it’s currently being led by men who have an a-priori accepted belief in macro-evolution and compromised it with our faith …
Belief in macro-evolution over the clear references to special creation by Genesis, in Exodus, throughout Jewish tradition, taught by Paul to the gentiles, and affirmed by Jesus Christ Himself **is the great apostacy of our times **…
**If the Church thinks **that by merging two opposable philosophies of naturalism and Christianity together they’ll somehow come up with something that’ll convince evolutionists to convert is laughable …
The Church should grow a spine and stop catering to evolutionists for fear that if we take a position contrary to the scientific consensus of our day that our reputation will be in ruin…

Yes, that is it. I can see it as clearly as anything – it’s blatantly obvious. But it’s not hopeless. Our Blessed Lord will guide his shepherds to truth – and some will eventually turn things around.

 

[wildleafblower]

But if we’re sticking to the OP, the question is why is the Holy Father and the Council excluding Creationists and Intelligent Design proponents.

Hi JR There is no question posed by the OP who presented:

Vatican evolution congress to exclude creationism, intelligent design

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – Speakers invited to attend a Vatican-sponsored congress on the evolution debate will not include proponents of creationism and intelligent design, organizers said.

The Pontifical Council for Culture, Rome’s Pontifical Gregorian University and the University of Notre Dame in Indiana are organizing an international conference in Rome March 3-7 as one of a series of events marking the 150th anniversary of the publication of Charles Darwin’s “The Origin of Species.”

Jesuit Father Marc Leclerc, a philosophy professor at the Gregorian, told Catholic News Service Sept. 16 that organizers “wanted to create a conference that was strictly scientific” and that discussed rational philosophy and theology along with the latest scientific discoveries.

He said arguments “that cannot be critically defined as being science, or philosophy or theology did not seem feasible to include in a dialogue at this level and, therefore, for this reason we did not think to invite” supporters of creationism and intelligent design. [Please read the entire article.]
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0804713.htm

https://www.catholicnews.com/religion-census-uses-data-gathered-from-500000-people-in-seven-year-period/

Let’s understand why there will be no supporters of creationism and intelligent design invited to The Pontifical Council for Culture International Conference in Rome March 3-7 2009. The main reason is creationists and proponents of the Intelligent Design movement aren’t members of The Pontifical Academy of Sciences. [pls. refer to pdf msg.79 too] (As a Roman Catholic woman I’m not a creationist nor a proponent of the Intelligent Design movement nor are any Roman Catholics that I know. Neither are the children that are Roman Catholics that attend a public or a private Catholic school. We do believe God the Father created our spiritual and immortal soul, and we believe in miracles which fall outside the realm of science. We wholeheartedly acknowledge God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God is perfect whereas us mere mortals are not. God is “Love” which we learn though Jesus Christ who still continues to teach us to this day. I love Jesus. Melting just thinking about him. It is my love for Jesus that gives me the strength and the Holy Spirit that compells me onward. ) Let’s take a closer at The Pontifical Academy of Sciences, A Historical Profile By MARCELO SÁNCHEZ SORONDO, Bishop-Chancellor. Here’s a snippet from the document:

The Academy is an independent body within the Holy See and enjoys freedom of research. Although its rebirth was the result of an initiative promoted by the Roman Pontiff and it is under the direct protection of the ruling Pope, it organises its own activities in an autonomous way in line with the goals which are
set out in its statutes:

The Pontifical Academy of Sciences has as its goal the promotion of the progress of the mathematical, physical and natural sciences, and the study of related epistemological questions and issues.1

Its deliberations and the studies it engages in, like the membership of its Academicians, are not influenced by factors of a national, political or religious character. For this reason, the Academy is a valuable source of objective scientific information which is made available to the Holy See and to the international
scientific community.

Today, the work of the Academy covers six main areas: a) fundamental science; b) the science and technology of global questions and issues; c) science in favour of the problems of the Third World; d) the ethics and politics of science; e) bioethics; and f) epistemology. The disciplines involved are sub-divided into nine fields: the disciplines of physics and related disciplines; astronomy; chemistry; the earth and environment sciences; the life sciences (botany, agronomy, zoology, genetics, molecular biology, biochemistry, the neurosciences, surgery); mathematics; the applied sciences; and the philosophy and history of sciences.

The new members of the Academy are elected by the body of Academicians and are chosen from men and women of every race and religion on the basis of the high scientific value of their activitiesand their high moral profile. They are then officially appointed by the Roman Pontiff. *
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/400_ann/storia_en_qxd.pdf
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/400_ann/storia_en_qxd.pdf*

 

[wildleafblower]

A little more information might be helpful:

1. **APOSTOLIC JOURNEY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI
   TO FRANCE ON THE OCCASION OF THE 150th ANNIVERSARY OF THE APPARITIONS OF THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY AT LOURDES **(SEPTEMBER 12 - 15, 2008),
   VISIT AT THE “INSTITUT DE FRANCE”, GREETING OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI, Paris, Saturday, 13 September 2008

Mr Chancellor,
Dear Permanent Secretaries of the five Académies,
Dear Cardinals,
Dear brothers in the episcopate and the priesthood,
Dear friends from the Académies, Ladies and Gentlemen,

[snip]

As Rabelais rightly asserted in his day, “Science without conscience brings only ruin to the soul!” (Pantagruel, 8). It was doubtless in order to contribute to avoiding the risk of such a dichotomy that, at the end of January of last year, and for the first time in three and a half centuries, two Académies of the Institut, two Pontifical Academies and the Institut Catholique in Paris organized a joint Colloquium on the changing identity of the individual. The Colloquium has illustrated the interest generated by broad interdisciplinary studies. This initiative could be taken further, in order to explore together the countless research possibilities in the human and experimental sciences. This wish is accompanied by my prayers to the Lord for you, for your loved ones and for all the members of the Académies, as well as all the staff of the Institut de France. May God bless you!
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2008/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20080913_parigi-institut-de-france_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...pe_20080913_parigi-institut-de-france_en.html

2.** Science and Human Needs **by Bruce Alberts, President
National Academy of Sciences 137th Annual Meeting, Washington, D.C., May 1, 2000:
[snip]
Science and Democracy

Scientists, as practitioners, teach important values. These include honesty, an eagerness for new ideas, the sharing of knowledge for public benefit, and a respect for evidence that requires verification by others. These “behaviors of science” make science a catalyst for democracy. Science and democracy promote similar freedoms. Science and democracy accommodate, and are strengthened by, dissent. Science’s requirement of proof resembles democracy’s system of justice. Democracy is buttressed by science’s values. And science is nurtured by democracy’s principles.

Consider the words of the Israeli statesman, Shimon Peres: He said, “Science and lies cannot coexist. You don’t have a scientific lie, and you cannot lie scientifically. Science is basically the search of truth — known, unknown, discovered, undiscovered — and a system that does not permit the search for truth cannot be a scientific system. Then again, science must operate in freedom. You cannot have free research in a society that doesn’t enjoy freedom . . . . So in a strange way, science carries with it a color of transparency, of openness, which is the beginning of democracy…”
[snip]
nasonline.org/site/DocServer/2000address.pdf?docID=982
http://www.nasonline.org/site/DocServer/2000address.pdf?docID=982

1. THE FOUR-HUNDREDTH ANNIVERSARY OF THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES 1603-2003, The Commemorative Session of 9 November 2003, ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II TO THE MEMBERS OF THE PONTIFICAL, ACADEMY OF SCIENCES:
   “Our gatherings have also enabled me to clarify important aspects of the Church’s doctrine and life relating to scientific research. We are united in our common desire to correct misunderstandings and even more to allow ourselves to be enlightened by the one Truth which governs the world and guides the lives of all men and women. I am more and more convinced that scientific truth, which is itself a participation in divine Truth, can help philosophy and theology to understand ever more fully the human person and God’s Revelation about man, a Revelation that is completed and perfected in Jesus Christ. For this important mutual enrichment in the search for the truth and the benefit of mankind, I am, with the whole Church, profoundly grateful.”
2. The following statement by Academy President Bruce Alberts on Kansas State Science Curriculum
   August 20, 1999:
   “Evolution is not only universally accepted by scientists; it has also been accepted by the leaders of most of the world’s major religions.”

nasonline.org/site/PageServer?pagename=NEWS_statement_president_08201999_BA_Kansas_curriculum

http://www.nasonline.org/site/PageServer?pagename=NEWS_statement_president_08201 999_BA_Kansas_curriculum

 

[buffalo]

jdnation, the reason is that theologians and scientists in Rome recognize that as an explanation for biological diversity on earth, evolution has gone from strength to strength since 1859. While science has spun off a profusion of discoveries, biblical creationism as produced precisely nothing. Not a single discovery! Zero! Zip! Nichts! Nada! Rien! ничего! Niente!

To believe that evolution is wrong is to believe that hundreds of thousands of biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, geologists, physicists, biochemists, and other scientists are participating in a conspiracy that would make those about Roswell, the JFK assassination, and Bush bombing the World Trade Center look like bungled episodes of Scooby Doo!

At the same time Catholics who have a sophisticated understanding of doctrine, faith, liturgy, and sacraments know that there is nothing in evolution that challenges belief in God. I expect this congress in Rome next March will produce some very interesting documents, and I look forward to participating myself. I hope to hear this week about my application to participate.

Prayerfully yours
StAnastasia

The underlying problem is that science it not interested in truth, it is interested in the explanation of observations. These change as new info emerges.

 

[buffalo]

Here is the announcement - what are they saying?

 

[reggieM]

Here is the announcement - what are they saying?

That was interesting. Here’s some of what they’re saying:

Among the issues to be discussed is the relationship between faith and science, the insufficiencies of neo-Darwinist theory, and the **possibility **of simultaneously believing in both the Catholic faith and in the theory of the evolution of the species.

“The motivation for our congress is above all to understand what this quest consists of; and here we face a paradigm [paradox?] because it seems clear to us that the theory of evolution is itself a theory in evolution.”

 

[buffalo]

That was interesting. Here’s some of what they’re saying:

Among the issues to be discussed is the relationship between faith and science, the insufficiencies of neo-Darwinist theory, and the **possibility **of simultaneously believing in both the Catholic faith and in the theory of the evolution of the species.

“The motivation for our congress is above all to understand what this quest consists of; and here we face a paradigm [paradox?] because it seems clear to us that the theory of evolution is itself a theory in evolution.”

Bingo!

 

[JReducation]

As far as I can see, this is a scientific congress sponsored by a Vatican agency with the intention of discussing scientific research in the area of evolution. We should not feel threatened that it is going to change the doctrine of Creation. That is not the purpose of this gathering.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[edwest2]

I don’t recall anyone being threatened about doctrine on Creation.

Peace,
Ed

 

[JReducation]

I don’t recall anyone being threatened about doctrine on Creation.

Peace,
Ed

You would be surprised at how many people are taking this so seriously that they fear that the Church is yielding her position on Creation.

It is unfortunate, because the soul was meant to search for peace, not to find more ways to experience frustration and fear. The world already dos this for us. We need not go looking for more things to worry about. We need to look the moments of silence in order to appreciate how God’s creation, regardless of our it evolved, reflects his love for us and calls to us as its brothers and sisters.

This is what St. Francis saw when he thought of creation. He saw himself as coming from the same hand of the same Father as the sun and the moon. Therefore, he saw himself in brotherhood with creation. His concern for creation was not how it evolved, but the fact that it shares with us the same origin, the hand of the Creator. This filled him with great peace and faith.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[ricmat]

…the soul was meant to search for peace…

This is what St. Francis saw when he thought of creation. He saw himself as coming from the same hand of the same Father as the sun and the moon. Therefore, he saw himself in brotherhood with creation. His concern for creation was not how it evolved, but the fact that it shares with us the same origin, the hand of the Creator. This filled him with great peace and faith.

Fraternally,

JR

We don’t have St. Francis around to explain the above thought in more detail, but we need to remember that although Mankind and “the sun and moon” are both created, that there is a fundamental difference. The universe was created for mankind. And mankind - alone in all of creation - was created to experience and reflect God’s love. To be children of God. Our family relationship with God is infinitely more important than our “brotherhood with creation.”

Humans are special.

And by the way, our souls were not meant to search for “peace.” They were meant to search for God. If you meant that “only in God will our souls find peace,” then I agree with you on that.

 

[edwest2]

To JR -

The Church is making sure it has all the scientific information it needs in the face of a growing secularization where science replaces God in the minds and hearts of the people. This is clear, however, as previous papal writings have also made clear, a concerted effort to spread heresies is ongoing. This has not stopped.

As the Bible tells us, there will come a time when people will no longer endure sound doctrine. And as Jesus told His disciples, all these things must come to pass, but see to it that you are not troubled.

No worries.

Peace,
Ed

 

[JReducation]

We don’t have St. Francis around to explain the above thought in more detail, but we need to remember that although Mankind and “the sun and moon” are both created, that there is a fundamental difference. The universe was created for mankind. And mankind - alone in all of creation - was created to experience and reflect God’s love. To be children of God. Our family relationship with God is infinitely more important than our “brotherhood with creation.”

Humans are special.

And by the way, our souls were not meant to search for “peace.” They were meant to search for God. If you meant that “only in God will our souls find peace,” then I agree with you on that.

Our holy father Francis always made it a point never to explain himself. He believed very firmly that what he said was self-evident through faith. His entire life people would ask him to explain things that he said and his answer was always the same. “When I had no brothers and sisters, the Lord Jesus Christ taught me how to live and what I must say and do.” He left it at that.

His position was that he could not explain what Jesus had not explained to him. He could only repeat it. Therefore, there is no explanation on his part for the writing of the Canticle of the Creatures, other than “Jesus told me.”

To this day, the Church has accepted that as a valid answer from Francis.

As to the soul’s search for peace. Francis was very clear that Peace is not a state of mind, but a person. Christ is peace. The soul’s mandate is to search for Christ and when the soul finds Christ, it finds Peace.

For this reason, our holy father said at his death that he died “in the arms of Peace.” He was so ceertain that he had found Christ and this gave him great peace. But he understood that this peace was from he who is Peace Incarnate.

Therefore, he commissioned his sons and daughters to be preachers of peace and to search for inner peace and to share that peace. This is how the Peace Prayer came to be written. It was a collection of shorter prayers from Francis.

How is Francis relevant to this topic? First, he is the patron saint of ecology and nature. He was proclaimed such by the Holy Father John Paul II because he found in nature the power of God and he realized that all created things are our brothers and sisters. This does not take anything away from the primacy of man in creation. Even among brothers, their is always only one heir.

Francis was well aware that man is the heir to the Kingdom. But he was also conscious of the fact that creation was holy and it came from the Word of the Father. Today, his family is not as concerned as to how creation came into existence as we are concerned that it be recognized as having divine origin.

In this regard, the subject of evolution is of special importance to the Franciscan family. While wanting to be informed and scientifically correct, we also want to protect what was revealed in scripture and what our holy father Francis taught us. The world comes from the same Divine hand as we do.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[wildleafblower]

I’d like to add onto the last two (206 & 207) though I have contributed quite a few more messages to this topic of discussion. From the Vatican:

CONFERENZA STAMPA DI PRESENTAZIONE DEL CONVEGNO INTERNAZIONALE "BIOLOGICAL EVOLUTION: FACTS AND THEORIES. A CRITICAL APPRAISAL 150 YEARS AFTER ‘THE ORIGIN OF SPECIES (ROMA, 3-7 MARZO 2009) , 16.09.2008

INTERVENTO DI S.E. MONS. GIANFRANCO RAVASI

I would like to begin with a greeting which extends across the oceans, for in coincidence with our meeting, on this same day, but respecting the different time zone, there will take place a press conference at the University of Notre-Dame about this same International Conference and the themes correlated. So we salute that institution which is represented here by Professor Sloane and with which we have a friendship of intense collaboration.

[snip]

This institution is in itself autonomous, even if it does work in close collaboration with the Dicastery. So all that will happen through this International Conference, which takes place within the Gregorian University, falls into the context of the activity of these two institutions which are connected between them, that is the department and Project STOQ.

The second information I wish to give you is our intention to give particular attention in the year 2009 for two fundamental reasons.

Firstly, something that is not being mentioned here but which will be proposed in a later press conference, if Fr Lombardi agrees, and that is the Year of Astronomy, which has been called for by the United Nations, and which has as its point of reference the four hundredth anniversary of the invention of the telescope by Galileo.

There will be different events that will develop around the theme of science and faith.

The third information I want to give you has to do with this Conference which is part of a reflection on evolution, in particular biological evolution. So I want to affirm right at the beginning – apart from what the academics and scientists will say after me – the non-incompatibility a priori between the theories of evolution and the message of the Bible and theology.

As you know, Darwin has never been condemned. The Origin of Species was not placed on the Index, and above all there have been some very important pronouncements about the theory of evolution by the Church’s Magisterium. Let us think of Pius XII’s Humani generis, which in 1950 – a very different time from ours, in some senses very tense times as regards science and faith – had these important things to say “the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of those experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution”. And then he addressed specific issues of corporeity.

Then there is the famous discourse of John Paul II of 22 October 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences which affirmed very clearly and strongly that evolution is no longer just a mere hypothesis but is now a theory which has progressively interested the attention of researchers after a series of discoveries in various disciplines of knowledge and learning. And then he adds a number of considerations for the importance of this connection and dialogue between these disciplines, science and faith.

So the third information I wanted to give you: we will be dedicating ourselves to this issue of evolution not because they are the only issues in the dialogue between faith and science but because they have become a sort of flag or emblem. It will be interesting to follow this International Congress as it seeks in as many ways possible to interweave in harmony the scientific side which will be given due importance over the first days, with the philosophical and theological sides. This is, in practice, reciprocal listening.

And this gives me the chance to come to the second part of my reflection which I wish to title the three virtues that I hope, that we all hope fundamentally as men of culture, will be present in this debate, this dialogue, which we hope to cause to grow, a dialogue that is sustained and supported by Benedict XVI.

[Snip due to space contraints. Please read ]

Thirdly and finally there is the virtue of optimism. I say this above all for theologians, who need to have optimism when looking at science. The reasons why a Dicastery of the Holy See should care about science can be found in the basis of the faith itself. An essential part of faith – and many miss this point – is the vocation of understanding. In fact we can recall that beautiful appeal of St Augustine, who was a great theologian and a genius: intellectum valde ama. If faith is not thought through it cannot love. Here is the necessity of thought. We hope that science will become more and more an element of the dialogue of the faith with the world of culture, that the horizon science opens become an horizon in which we too can learn and listen, certain that science has great capacities. Science, recalled John Paul II, can purify religion of superstition, and religion can purify science of false absolutes. Let not ideologisation in the sphere of science become a temptation, nor on the other hand faith become an expression that is a-critical and almost a-rational, without-reason. This is what optimism can offer us within the framework of this International Conference.
[snip]

212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/22602.php?index=22602&po_date=16.09.2008&lang=en
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/bulletin/news/22602.php?index=22602&po_date=16.09.2008&lang=en
Anyone wish to translate the non-English part of the bulletin? Hi JR, I notice you are online. Can you help with the translation? Nice to see you again. Peace be with you. I’ve been thinking of Mother Teresa lately.

 

[jdnation]

jdnation, the reason is that theologians and scientists in Rome recognize that as an explanation for biological diversity on earth, evolution has gone from strength to strength since 1859. While science has spun off a profusion of discoveries, biblical creationism as produced precisely nothing. Not a single discovery! Zero! Zip! Nichts! Nada! Rien! ничего! Niente!

To believe that evolution is wrong is to believe that hundreds of thousands of biologists, paleontologists, geneticists, geologists, physicists, biochemists, and other scientists are participating in a conspiracy that would make those about Roswell, the JFK assassination, and Bush bombing the World Trade Center look like bungled episodes of Scooby Doo!

At the same time Catholics who have a sophisticated understanding of doctrine, faith, liturgy, and sacraments know that there is nothing in evolution that challenges belief in God. I expect this congress in Rome next March will produce some very interesting documents, and I look forward to participating myself. I hope to hear this week about my application to participate.

Prayerfully yours
StAnastasia

That is a gross exaggeration. Evolution is comprised of two sets. Micro-Evolution and Macro-Evolution. Micro-Evolution that deals with nature changing and growing and diversifying through natural selection on a daily basis is an observable and proven fact. It is scientific truth.

However macro-evolution, the idea that simpler organisms can gain new genetic information (from where and how?) and grow into more complex creatures, from single celled organisms right up to human beings is unobserved and pure fantasy. It merely piggybacks off of the truth that is microevolution. It is an extrapolated hypothesis without any evidence. This is where the problem lies.

In fact, natural selection doesn’t come from evolutionists, it is originally a creationist concept to explain rapid speciation. It was coined by Edward Blyth whom Darwin took the idea from and didn’t credit. Great scientists like Isaac Newton had no problem conducting science and believing in 6 day creation. There are plenty of other scientists too that work in medicine and have sent rockets to the moon that are creationists.

Belief in Creation or evolution have nothing to do with observable and testable scientific research being done today. Evolutionists like to claim so but it is simply not true, it can’t be. Macro-evolution is claimed to take place in a past unobserved by us and is a process impractical to observe today because it supposedly takes millions of years. We’re asked to accept that it’s true on nothing but religious faith. Science that actually contributes anything today from medicine to technology has nothing to do with the unobservable and untestable speculated past. I’d like a list of any scientific contributions that actually rely on the belief that simpler organisms can evolve into fully thinking and complex human beings. Heck even evolutionists don’t have any testable ideas as to how it happens and the theories are constantly being discarded and reworked, so how could their studies practically contribute to anything? The only fact of evolution is at the micro level, something creationists have no problems with and have been dealing with and explaining long before evolutionists like Darwin were ever on the scene.

And yes, hundreds and thousands or scientists can be wrong! Consensus opinion isn’t science. It is merely consensus. It has been wrong in the past with concern to geocentrism and the existence of germs and parasites invisible to the naked eye. The vast majority of scientists can be wrong. One should even consider that the vast majority of scientists that are biologists etc. have nothing to do with the actual study of macro-evolution. They merely take other scientists’ word for it and parrot it like a dogma. The real truth is that scientists have largely begun to believe in it because they prefer not to retain God in their knowledge. They would rather deal solely with created things rather than the Creator. They will go out of their way to remove God form the picture as if that somehow makes their work less scientific. It is simply their human nature at work. Most evolutionary concepts and writing are all assumptions resting upon assumptions resting upon assumptions. Without proving the foundation they have already been acepting it as true on faith alone and working around it. Heck even the geocentric universe models back in the day were vast, intricate and complex with many explanations and theories, but the fact remains that if the initial premise isn’t true then the whole system and all that rests upon it is worthless.

If you have the time I’d like you to read an interesting essay/lecture. It is by Michael Crichton, the author of Jurassic Park, he’s no Creationist but he too as well as others recognize the error of believing in things just because the scientific concensus of the day says so and how much junk and empty speculation there is in scientific circles nowadays. It is called ‘Aliens cause Global Warming’, the title is meant to be humorous, but I’m sure everyone regardless of where they stand on this topic will find it enlightening. The scientific world is not infalliable and often egos and biased beliefs get in the way of true scientific research, I recommend everyone read it:
michaelcrichton.com/speech-alienscauseglobalwarming.html

 

[jdnation]

To jdnation -

I understand you. Here, in brief, is what is happening. Scientists, both in the Pontifical Academy of Sciences and outside of it, provide the Vatican with information and documents. Both Pope Benedict and Cardinal Schoenborn are clearly aware of their atheist tendencies. Both of them are clearly aware because scientists are telling them that evolutionary theory negates a role for God. God has been eliminated from the equation, That is clearly understood. That is why Cardinal Schoenborn made the statement that some people think the Pope is a satisfied Evolutionist and he goes on to say, this is not true. What is buried here, on this forum, is the statement articulated in Human Persons Created in the Image of God that no evolutionary process could ever occur without divine providence.

What is also buried here is the rest of the information regarding Pope John Paul II’s often repeated quote about evolution being more than a hypothesis. What is usually left out is that he was talking about many theories of evolution. To be blunt: the current textbook theory of evolution is not acceptable to the Church. This is why Pope Benedict wrote that while leaving to science certain details, we, meaning Catholics, must have the audacity to say we are not haphazard mistakes. This is directly opposite from the purely random and natural selection formula of the textbook. But no one here can mention that without being ignored or ridiculed. I could link you to various comments made about the Pope and the Catholic Church whenever he says things like this but I would be banned - it consists mostly of profanity and blasphemy and comments like “the Pope just wants to keep his job.”

Unlike the internet, the Catholic Church takes the (name removed by moderator)ut of scientists at face value but does not limit itself to strictly science. Galileo is often brought up in connection with this but his story is usually distorted. The point is, even the scientists of his day weren’t sure he was right, but he insisted on running around and saying, it’s true! It’s a fact! I’m right! The Church cautioned him about this and he was the one to keep the conflict going. He was out of control.

So, I ask you to realize that the Church is carefully, very carefully, weighing the evidence. And unlike the evolutionists here and elsewhere, they are very interested in looking at the flaws, the missing information, the contradictions and the conclusions that scientists cannot demonstrate as being true.

Like yourself, I know that the constant, unceasing noise being created here to ‘just say yes’ to evolution is not about science. It is about creating a society of scientific atheists. The scientists becoming the new priests and the laboratories and research institutes becoming the new cathedrals.

The Pope knows this. That is why he said that evolution is not a complete, scientifically proven theory. The evolutionists here cannot conceive of a one billion plus Catholic Church not believing that every living thing assembled itself from uncaused, unintelligent and unguided forces and dies to nothing. They can’t even write it down on this forum. It might get people thinking. It might make them doubt the ‘fact’ of evolution. Can’t have that.

Peace,
Ed

I understand Ed. I wish to make clear that I don’t think Pope Benedict or anyone is a bad guy. I was not always a creationist. I too was a Theistic Evolutionist and easily dismissed creationism as fundamentalist stupidity that did nothing but prevent people from believing in Christ by making religious people look like unscientific peons and I am guilty of many a slanderous attack upon them. But upon finally learning what it is that Creationism is and what Evolution subsequently really is, I felt angry like I’d been lied to throughout my life. I changed from a somewhat unmotivated Catholic who often questioned some teachings from the Church on areas of sex and discipline into someone who could have full confidence in his faith, in God’s power and in His Church. It was like a revival for me and I find creationism to be one of the best apologetics and vital tools to convert and encourage people in their faith.

I understand Pope John Paul II and now Benedict XVI’s reasons for continuing to discuss evolution. But at the same time I think they should look into the opposing side and encourage Catholics to explore that option just as they allow for with concern to evolution. In time we’ll clearly see what fruits and philosophies each one will bear, though I’d argue that Social Darwinism and other philosophies that use evolution as their strict foundation have already shown the horrors that they are capable. It was these very institutions that the Church fought in the past, including John Paul himself.