Vatican expresses surprise, indignation at raid on Belgian archdiocese

[Dale_M]

The controversy keeps on growing.

Belgium Church abuse commission head quits over raids

Peter Adriaenssens said he was quitting and that the commission “had been used as bait”, according to reports in the Belgian press.

After meeting on Monday, members of the commission have said they will step down on Thursday, Belgian reports say.

The commission’s offices were searched during police raids last week, and its case files were taken.

Mr Adriaenssens’s computer was also taken.

He expressed concern at what could have motivated the authorities.

“They could only act in that way with the sentiment that we were in the wrong or that we were trying to conceal the cases. This while I made a point of working in complete transparency,” he is quoted as saying in the Belgian press.

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10432827.stm

 

[anode]

I’m interested, too. Belgium isn’t exactly a police state. It also has a substantial Catholic population. I suspect that there is something significant behind all of this. Time will tell.

However, I don’t think that any Catholic should feel obliged to object to these actions, *if *the Belgian police turn out to be justified in their actions–ie., that there have been unrecognized heinous crimes committed by the clergy against minors and that there has been a cover-up which the commission had not addressed.

 

[sidbrown]

Well, why did the raids occur in the first place? Isn’t it the duty and obligation of government to protect its children against sex perverts?

 

[Dale_M]

Well, why did the raids occur in the first place?

I think that is the question everyone is asking.

Isn’t it the duty and obligation of government to protect its children against sex perverts?

Yes, indeed. But what suddenly prompted this large raid, with tactics including breaking open walls? Why are the authorities remaining tight-lipped about their reasons or what they found?

 

[sidbrown]

I think that is the question everyone is asking.

Yes, indeed. But what suddenly prompted this large raid, with tactics including breaking open walls? Why are the authorities remaining tight-lipped about their reasons or what they found?

Obviously, it concerns the question of perverted sex crimes committed against children. The state has to move to protect children from sex predators.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

Obviously, it concerns the question of perverted sex crimes committed against children. The state has to move to protect children from sex predators.

What worries me about a state’s intervention on behalf of children is a usurpation of parental responsibilities, and ultimately, the rights of individuals to form groups and live as they please.

The tragedy involved is no matter how righteous the attempt, the Church will never be able to live to the impossible standards demanded of Her without the grace of God and repentance, forgiveness, humility, and tolerance for human frailty. It seems there have been too many in the Church who have vainly presided over the gift of grace; so for a lot of people, it seems squandered or worse, worthless. And this assumption has emboldened the nations to claim powers (temporal and spiritual) not given to them. This is an excuse for the exercise of power, and there is nothing the Church can do. Ultimately, this chastisement is in the best interest of the Church, who has so often flirted with worldly power to the detriment of her gifts- the cover ups here being a part of this. There is no going back to the old ways, this sort of stuff will become more rampant, and her members will pay for every real and perceived wrongdoing.

Is the Church ready for that?

 

[sidbrown]

What worries me about a state’s intervention on behalf of children is a usurpation of parental responsibilities, and ultimately, the rights of individuals to form groups and live as they please.:

I don’t think that people should form groups to go about living as they please especially when that includes molesting children or other perverted criminal activity. It is the duty of the state to protect us all, including children, from this type of criminal activity. And parents can’t be watching their children every minute of the day, when they are at Catholic schools or in the Catholic playground. Parents have to support their children and most have jobs during the day. If the state finds criminal activity from groups who have been committing the perverted crimes as they please, then it is only right that the officers of the state step in. These perverted criminals, who have been doing what they please, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law so that children can walk and play safely.

 

[ALotLessThumb]

I don’t think that people should form groups to go about living as they please especially when that includes molesting children or other perverted criminal activity. It is the duty of the state to protect us all, including children, from this type of criminal activity. And parents can’t be watching their children every minute of the day, when they are at Catholic schools or in the Catholic playground. Parents have to support their children and most have jobs during the day. If the state finds criminal activity from groups who have been committing the perverted crimes as they please, then it is only right that the officers of the state step in. These perverted criminals, who have been doing what they please, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law so that children can walk and play safely.

There seems to be some miscommunication. You are right that parents cannot monitor or protect their children at all times [though I’m unsure why you point out Catholic schools and playgrounds as particularly dangerous] and the dignity of children has to be upheld by the law for their own physical and spiritual sake.

However, I was attempting to say that sexual deviancy is rampant in all societies and groups and that these authorities will eventually use this as an excuse to persecute the Church and any other groups of people who, for better and worse, wish to live contrary to the whims and fads of society (eventually is the key word, the bishops who covered up the sins of others and allowed people to get hurt have brought this upon themselves.)

This is why they are now enthusiastic about cleaning up the terrible mess the bishops have foolishly disregarded (or worst) consciously perpetuated. And it is why I am concerned about state intervention: if the bishops have little regard for the well being of my children, how much less will the state have?

 

[pnewton]

Well, why did the raids occur in the first place? Isn’t it the duty and obligation of government to protect its children against sex perverts?

Yes. Yet with time we will see if they had credible, specific evidence against someone in particular or if this was just a general anticatholic shakedown. Even on this thread, there is such a presumption of guilt that this raid will have the effect of casting the leadership as criminals. There is already comments that they must have been guilty of something or this would not have happened. Belgium may not be a police state, but this is how police states are birthed.

 

[Laurent_LUG]

Belgian files complaint over church sex abuse raid - Yahoo! News news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100629/ap_on_re_eu/eu_belgium_vatican
If made up (fake) …
In case it’s true …

And I agree on:

You may not be aware, but in the U.S. we also have innocent until proven guilty.

In Belgium too , but what if , proven guilty …

Only the guilty-ones need to be punished

Salute & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:
– Laurent LUG (.@…), june 30, 2010

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

By Sarah Delaney
Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – In a strongly worded statement, the Vatican expressed surprise and indignation at the way Belgian police carried out a raid on the headquarters of the Belgian Catholic Church in connection with an investigation into alleged priestly sex abuse.

The statement June 25 from the Vatican Secretariat of State expressed “true surprise” for the nine-hour-long police blitz and “indignation” for what it said was the violation of tombs of two late cardinals during the search June 24.

It’s begun—the official persecution of the Church. Emboldened by the massive surge of militant atheism, those in secular ‘authority’ feel the need to show their teeth. They acted as thugs. We know their face; they can continue to act as thugs but they can no longer hide their true motives.

Perhaps we are indeed in the end times.

 

[momor]

It’s begun—the official persecution of the Church. Emboldened by the massive surge of militant atheism, those in secular ‘authority’ feel the need to show their teeth. They acted as thugs. We know their face; they can continue to act as thugs but they can no longer hide their true motives.

Perhaps we are indeed in the end times.

Can you see how the Church has allowed this door to persecution to be opened? Can you see the Church’s culpability and stupidity in giving it’s enemies an excuse?

 

[CEPS]

I would hardly call this the official persecution of the Church. It’s about time those in authority did show their teeth so they can expose the true criminals that the Church has chosen to protect.

Children have been abused for decades and the guilty parties have been moved around and hidden by those in authority. The R. C. Church has gotten a black eye or even worse, a broken jaw out of this scandal and she has refused to clean house. What do you expect? Do you think the world is going to put up with this for ever?

It would have been much better if the Church would have faced facts early on and done her own house cleaning but the Old Boys Network chose to hide the crimes and the criminals. Now she faces the consequences of those poor choices.

Who really are the thugs, the Belgian authorities or the sexual abusers and their protectors? Militant Atheism? What does that have to do with investigating crimes. I fail to see where anyone was attacking Catholic doctrine or beliefs with respect to this raid.

My hat’s off to the Belgians. Someone has to get the ball rolling and put an end to the abuse and the conspiracy to cover it up. Maybe the U.N. should set up a commission with a special prosecutor complete with powers to go in and get ALL the pertinent records and get this thing taken care of. Obviously the governing body of the Church isn’t really interested in swift and complete justice.

 

[CatholicGerman]

My hat’s off to the Belgians. Someone has to get the ball rolling and put an end to the abuse and the conspiracy to cover it up. Maybe the U.N. should set up a commission with a special prosecutor complete with powers to go in and get ALL the pertinent records and get this thing taken care of. Obviously the governing body of the Church isn’t really interested in swift and complete justice.

You mean, you’re hoping they’ll shut down the Church, once and for all? Whatever happened to law and subsidiarity? The Church already has the strictest child-protection rules of any organization in the world. Most of these investigations are for things that happened years ago, and in many cases the priests are already dead, retired, or convalescent. People are acting like these priests are chasing toddlers around the altar as we speak.

Are you going to call for a UN commision to investigate and persecute imams who call for female circumcision next? What about atheists who promote abortion? Shall we call a commission, tear up their houses, and demonize them in the media? Why don’t we just start a bonfire and start tossing people in? It’d be so much simpler. And cheaper. Money is short right now.

Okay, let’s go over the facts in this case, as far as the media has reported them to us:

1. 
   *]The government and the Church arranged a church-led truth commission.
   *]Men gave testimony to this commission after receiving the assurance that their words would be kept confidential.
   *]The Belgian government raided the Church in order to get their hands on the commission’s documents.
   
   How does the Belgian government get off looking like they were doing anything at all helpful? They *were *using the commission as bait. These are mostly grown men who went to the commission, rather than the police, because they didn’t want their testamony ending up in the media or being discussed in a court.
   
   BTW, hardly anyone in Belgium is a practicing Catholic (only 7% attend mass weekly). Faithful Catholics are a small minority there, so it is not unimaginable that they could be persecuted for their faith. The majority of Europeans are atheists, you know.
   
   If these “authorities” wanted to actually make any sort of dent in the number of children abused in Belgium, they’d be publicizing the inherent dangers of fatherlessness. The biggest enablers and perpetrators of child abuse are single mothers. But, unlike the Church, Baby Mamas are a protected class.

 

[sidbrown]

The Church already has the strictest child-protection rules of any organization in the world. .

Oh? Is that why the John Jay report indicates that more than 4000 priests have sex allegations against them? And is that why Archbishop Silvano Tomasi himself said that between 1.5 to 5% of Catholic clergy has been involved in these sex crimes?

 

[CEPS]

I said nothing about shutting down the Church once and for all and neither did I mean to give that implication. I don’t plan on getting baited into anything dealing with doctrine whether it is Catholic, Islamic, Atheistic or any other religious ideology. This thread is dealing with the Belgian police raid in regards to the Catholic child abuse scandal. As far as other religious organizations are concerned, if they committed crimes they need to be investigated also but for this thread, once again, we are dealing with the Catholic Church.

The fact that these things happened in the past does not negate that some of the perpetrators and/or cover-up conspirators are still alive and roaming around Scott free. A 40 or 50 year cover up just makes it all the more reprehensible. Do you really think that the Catholic Church will be able to satisfy anyone via a church-led truth commission? If you do I have some ocean front property in Arizona I would like to sell you. It’s to late for that. No one will believe it any more than if we let the Mafia investigate organized crime and give us an unbiased report. The Church waited to long and got caught with their pants down on this issue to many times already.

I was always taught that honesty was the best policy. In this civil matter the Church is not and has not manifested honesty and the whole world is getting fed up with it. The Church’s actions/inactions over the course of many years led to this raid. I would think that Catholics would want this put to rest in an HONEST way once and for all. Thus the example of a U.N. commission, something unbiased. Just think, the longer this takes to be resolved the longer the Church’s enemies will have this issue as ammunition.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Yes, indeed. But what suddenly prompted this large raid, with tactics including breaking open walls?

The raid was prompted by:

…a formal accusation that the church was hiding information on sexual abuse lodged by the former president of an internal church commission handling such cases…she had gone to the authorities after receiving a call from a man who did not identify himself and **warned her in French to “watch out” for herself and to secure the documents **she held on about 30 cases she had handled during her tenure at the commission, from 2000 to 2008.

There must be something pretty juicy in those doccuments for someone who knew about them to make a threatening phone call. Who made that call?

 

[Dale_M]

The raid was prompted by:

Thank you for that link.

There must be something pretty juicy in those doccuments for someone who knew about them to make a threatening phone call.

hmmm… maybe. Or it may just a conspiracy theorist. Honestly, it sounds like something from a movie.

I’m feeling unsettled by this whole matter, and don’t know what to think. An anonymous caller gives a vague warning about a threat, prompting a former commission head to ask police for a massive raid. I realize that we have very little information to go on, but dang… that seems a thin justification for all the things which were done.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Thank you for that link.

No problem.

hmmm… maybe. Or it may just a conspiracy theorist. Honestly, it sounds like something from a movie.

I’m feeling unsettled by this whole matter, and don’t know what to think. An anonymous caller gives a vague warning about a threat, prompting a former commission head to ask police for a massive raid. I realize that we have very little information to go on, but dang… that seems a thin justification for all the things which were done.

Why does someone who no longer holds a position on the commission have possession of those files? Why does the former Archbishop have doccuments relating to sexual abuse cases locked away in his private residence while the Church is supposed to be investigating these cases? Now we know of a threatening phone call warning a former commission president to “secure” doccuments or else. The only answer I can think of is that someone doesn’t want those files to be made available to the current commission in the diocese investigating the history of sexual abuse cases let alone the police. The whole situation reeks of corruption.

 

[pnewton]

From the Times article linked above:

The former head of the commission, Godelieve Halsberghe, said in an interview with a Flemish newspaper, Het Nieuwsblad, that she had gone to the authorities after receiving a call from a man who did not identify himself and warned her in French to “watch out” for herself and to secure the documents she held on about 30 cases she had handled during her tenure at the commission, from 2000 to 2008.
Ms. Halsberghe, now a retired magistrate,** has long been critical of the church’s efforts in Belgium to confront its past.** Alarmed by the phone call, she took the documents in her keeping to the authorities and warned them that the church might be hiding others. On Monday, she declined to accept calls.

So we have an alleged anonymous tip from received by an enemy of the Catholic Church. Working on a “specific case” they confiscated hundreds of files and desecrated a tomb, where they found, of course, human remains.

Belgian authorities are looking more and more like jackbooted thugs.