Vatican 'Horrified' by Criticism from Germany ... Some even think the pope could resign

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Neil_Anthony said:
I didn’t see her words as an attack on the Holy Father. She just asked him to clarify.

And yes, the darkest corners… which now apparently includes groups within the Catholic church 😦 Which is why she asked the Pope to speak out clearly.
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Yes and it’s not just this bishop. Another bishop was asked about the matters the bishop cast doubt on and he simply said that he had no opinion on it. Also, the publically holocaust minimizing bishop was until recently the director of a major seminary for this community. So it may be that many of his students were influenced by his views.
 
pnewton said:
As a sidenote, Germany’s propensity to make thought and speech illegal is what got them in the situation they were so that the Holocaust became possible. I think Frau Chancellor needs to learn all the lessons of WWII before she starts trying to teach others.

In answer to who will stand up for history if they don’t. How about THE WORLD. You know those that twice before put an end to German arrogance.
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Your statements about German “propensity” and “German arrogance” I hope are not unfair judgments against German people.

My understanding is that German law does not make any thought itself illegal and that only public denial or doubt of aspects of the Holocaust are illegal. That is not different from what the Catholic community SSPX itself has done with their superior Bishop Fellay ordering Bishop Williamson to not make any public speech about his opinions on these matters. It’s also not different from what the Vatican has done through history in ordering different theologians to be silent or books forbidden from being read. So maybe you are right to criticize German law, but make sure your criticism is of the equal opportunity kind.
 
grampben said:
I think what we have here is a misunderstanding, as well has a hatred for all things European.
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I wouldn’t say all things European. Let me just say that when it comes to Germany, I take the advice of Neil Anthony and try to learn from their history.
 
pnewton said:
I wouldn’t say all things European. Let me just say that when it comes to Germany, I take the advice of Neil Anthony and try to learn from their history.
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Then you will understand that Ms Merkel had to speak out, otherwise neo-nazi groups would capitalise on her silence and proclaim religion - and the German State - anti-semitic.
The church hasn’t condemned her comments. And all she did was ask for clarification. I’m pretty sure many Jewish catholics wanted this clarification.
 
i am sure the criticism stings, but i cannot see anyway this would cause the Pope to resign. he is still ok in my book and i am sure that eventually hurt feelings will be mended.
 
grampben said:
And all she did was ask for clarification. I’m pretty sure many Jewish catholics wanted this clarification.
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That is not what the article said, rather
On Tuesday the German chancellor said Holocaust denial was unacceptable and that Pope Benedict XVI hadn’t made a “sufficient clarification” regarding the church’s attitude toward Williamson’s Holocaust remarks
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That is not asking for clarification, so let us put that rumor to rest. It is saying that the response was insufficient.
 
pnewton said:
That is not what the article said, rather

That is not asking for clarification, so let us put that rumor to rest. It is saying that the response was insufficient.
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Right, seems basically a propaganda tool against the Church.
 
grampben said:
Exactly!

Angela Merkel has done nothing wrong, and has committed no double standard.
In Germany, as in Austria, holocaust denial is a serious offence. German anti-semites really could have used this to bring back religious reasons to hate the Jews (it has happened before). She asked for clarification from the Pope.

I think what we have here is a misunderstanding, as well has a hatred for all things European.
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Angela Merkel ate my hamster! 😉
 
Kaninchen said:
It’s German history as well as Jewish history that Williamson is denying and, as the Chancellor of Germany, she had every right to request that the Vatican made itself clear. The fact that German neo-Nazis might (and would) claim that holocaust denial was ok because a holocaust denier had been welcomed back into the Church might, indeed, be wrong but it wouldn’t stop them doing it.

Just because (certain) Catholics may consider a particular action to be of only internal consequence doesn’t mean that they can demand that everybody else accepts their position, certainly without clarification.

The Vatican is not a wholly owned subsidiary of any other entity but other entities are not wholly owned subsidiaries of the Vatican either.
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The truth seems to be that within the Vatican are many people who oppose the pope. That said, those who do serve the pope should have anticipated the reaction of the press to the inclusion of Williamson. THAT said, there is a war going on inside the Church, and a lot of bishops and priests whose faith
is not Catholicism are dead set on making the Church into an institution as hollow as the Church of England.
 
Kaninchen said:
As I said before, the fact that you believe that it’s only of internal significance doesn’t make it so. The German Government doesn’t take orders from the Vatican any more than the Vatican takes orders from the German Government.
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Nobody but you suggested she should take orders from the Vatican. She is free to display her ignorance of the meaning of excommunication and she has. And I’m free to lament her sad ignorance.
 
manualman said:
Nobody but you suggested she should take orders from the Vatican.
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That’s not what I said, what I said was:

The German Government doesn’t take orders from the Vatican any more than the Vatican takes orders from the German Government.
  • there is a double implication.
She is free to display her ignorance of the meaning of excommunication and she has. And I’m free to lament her sad ignorance.
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Just as you are free to display your ignorance of the fact that consequences are not limited just because you demand that they should be.
 
RobbyS said:
The truth seems to be that within the Vatican are many people who oppose the pope. That said, those who do serve the pope should have anticipated the reaction of the press to the inclusion of Williamson. THAT said, there is a war going on inside the Church, and a lot of bishops and priests whose faith
is not Catholicism are dead set on making the Church into an institution as hollow as the Church of England.
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All of which has implications beyond the ‘frontier’ of the Church and its members that everybody else (including Church members in the ‘secular’ consequences of their ‘religious’ positions, of course) has to deal with.

The ‘outside world’ cannot tell the Church what positions it should take, naturally, but neither can the Church ignore the (often, I’m sure, unintended) consequences of its actions.
 
grampben said:
Angela Merkel has done nothing wrong …
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Except for giving in to her own worst impulses.
I think what we have here is a misunderstanding, as well has a hatred for all things European.
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Hatred of all things European? I assume you mean on the part of all those who reflexively attack the Catholic Church.
 
fix said:
How about understanding the workings of the politicans with agendas and those seeking to be offended every chance they get?
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That’s wasn’t the nature of the allusion but let’s go with yours.

What is it about CAF that brings on all this manufacturing of ‘enemies’ and trying to ensure that, if they’re not enemies at the outset, they’ll end up being so - or appear to be so?

To argue that Angela Merkel, leader of the CDU (with its millions of - conservative - Catholic voters) and Chancellor of Germany, is some kind of enemy of the Catholic Church is . . . . well . . . sorry to use a technical term here but . . . it’s . . . . well ‘bonkers’.

She hasn’t announced a new Kulturkampf against the Church, she hasn’t denounced the Church, she asked the Pope for clarification. For this there is no question of a demand that she ‘goes to Canossa’ (to borrow from a famous event involving a German ruler) ‘in body or in spirit’ (to borrow from a very famous German Chancellor talking about that event).

Good message board fun, I’m sure, but, basically, ‘bonkers’.
 
This was bonkers from the outset when people didn’t realise that Merkel is no liberal.
 
Kaninchen said:
You’d have to understand the workings of the British press.
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I the British press about the same thing as the press in general (in the same way yellow journalism and journalism mean the same thing)?
 
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