Vatican II infallible?

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Was the Second Vatican Council infallible?

I don’t just mean by the universal and ordinary Magisterium but by the Extraordinary Magisterium?

JD
 
Johndigger said:
Was the Second Vatican Council infallible?

I don’t just mean by the universal and ordinary Magisterium but by the Extraordinary Magisterium?

JD
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^ “In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided any extraordinary statement of dogmas that would be endowed with the note of infallibility, but it still provided its teaching with the authority of the supreme ordinary Magisterium. This ordinary Magisterium, which is so obviously official, has to be accepted with docility, and sincerity by all the faithful, in accordance with the mind of the Council on the nature and aims of the individual documents” (Pope Paul VI, General Audience Jan. 12, 1966

“Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council. …] But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements, has made thoroughly known its authoritative teaching on a number of questions which today weigh upon man’s conscience and activity, descending, so to speak, into a dialogue with him, but ever preserving its own authority and force; it has spoken with the accommodating friendly voice of pastoral charity; its desire has been to be heard and understood by everyone; it has not merely concentrated on intellectual understanding but has also sought to express itself in simple, up-to-date, conversational style, derived from actual experience and a cordial approach which make it more vital, attractive and persuasive; it has spoken to modern man as he is.” (Address during the last general meeting of the Second Vatican Council, December 7, 1965; AAS 58)

There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give to its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the Church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964, repeated on November 16, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in an extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.” (General Audience, December 1, 1966, published in the L’Osservatore Romano 1/21/1966)

“The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council” {cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Prefest of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, El Mercurio, July 17,1988}
 
Well let’s clarify something–ecumenical councils are infallible when they are defining something on faith and morals–these teachings (which would most likely be already infallible by the ordinary magisterium) would be infallible by the statment of the ecumenical council. so eveeything an ecummenical council says is not extraordiarily infallible–

one example–Council of Trent solemnly defined the Canon of Scripture–this was already infallible by virtue of the ordinary magisterium but Trent solemnly defined the matter thus removing all doubt, and one now not only has to look to the ordinary magisterium for evidence of this but can look to trent’s definition alone to show this is infalible.—(many times ecumenical councils do/did this in the form of canons—ex: if someone says … ananthema sit")

Vatican II was an ecumenical council that doesnt appear to define any particaular matter but simply reiterated teachings that are already infallible----There are no errors in Vatican II (when properly understood) but Vatican II didnt solemnly define any dogma—
 
Councils are not infallible, only dogmas are declared so. As pointed out, nothing that came from VII was infallible. The last time infallibility was used by a pope was the 1950s, not sure as to when the last time the magesterium acted infallibly.
 
But surely, when the Pope is gathered with the Bishops in union with him they are infallible?

Which was exactly the situation that Vatican II was, therefore, anything regarding faith/morals in Vatican II should be infallible?

JD
 
As has been pointed out, there are no solemn definitions, however, I just wanted to add that dogmatic definitions are not the only infallible pronouncments, but also universally binding proclamations of “tenenda” and things necessary to expounding and defending the dogmas.

Also, pretty much every doctrine of the Church on faith and morals has been infallbily proclaimed many times over by various organs of the Church endowed with that charism.
 
Johndigger said:
But surely, when the Pope is gathered with the Bishops in union with him they are infallible?

Which was exactly the situation that Vatican II was, therefore, anything regarding faith/morals in Vatican II should be infallible?

JD
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That’s not how infallibility works.
 
Any chance on an explanation to that?

Although, I stated to the contrary in my OP, but surely Vatican II is infallible because the ordinary and universal Magisterium is, in fact, the Pope and the bishops in union with him teaching something related to faith or morals?

JD
 
Here’s a quote from the final paragraph–Appendix excluded–of Lumen Gentium, a dogmatic Constitution promulgated by the II Vatican Council:
Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
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Based on this statement, I can’t imagine the Council Fathers making a mistake anywhere in this document. What does everyone here think?

Here’s an interesting question: Has an error ever been admitted by the Church to have been proclaimed during Her Councils throughout Her history?
 
Author_Jerry said:
Here’s a quote from the final paragraph–Appendix excluded–of Lumen Gentium, a dogmatic Constitution promulgated by the II Vatican Council:

Based on this statement, I can’t imagine the Council Fathers making a mistake anywhere in this document. What does everyone here think?

Here’s an interesting question: Has an error ever been admitted by the Church to have been proclaimed during Her Councils throughout Her history?
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No mistakes in councils. The error comes in thinking that V2 has changed anything in regard to doctrine when it has not. Thus if anything from V2 would lead one to believe that doctrine has changed in any way, it has not, and one should turn to all the previous councils which did proclaim or define doctrine to clarify.
 
I have a dumb question. The lead post differentiated between the Magisterium and the Extraordinary Magisterium. From everything I learned I am only aware of one Magisterium, i.e., the Pope and bishops in union with him, whether in Council or not.
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
I have a dumb question. The lead post differentiated between the Magisterium and the Extraordinary Magisterium. From everything I learned I am only aware of one Magisterium, i.e., the Pope and bishops in union with him, whether in Council or not.
Deacon Ed B
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I think that the OP was probably talking about the organs of infallibility but that’s just my guess.
 
latinmass said:
No mistakes in councils. The error comes in thinking that V2 has changed anything in regard to doctrine when it has not. Thus if anything from V2 would lead one to believe that doctrine has changed in any way, it has not, and one should turn to all the previous councils which did proclaim or define doctrine to clarify.
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Not changed, expounded upon.😉
 
bear06 said:
I think that the OP was probably talking about the organs of infallibility but that’s just my guess.
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What exactly are the “organs of infallibility”? To what sources should one go to learn about such a thing?

SFD
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
I have a dumb question. The lead post differentiated between the Magisterium and the Extraordinary Magisterium. From everything I learned I am only aware of one Magisterium, i.e., the Pope and bishops in union with him, whether in Council or not.
Deacon Ed B
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How about the Pope speaking ‘ex cathedra’ on faith and morals, intending to define a doctrine, like Infallibility itself, or Outside the Church there is no salvation’, or, the Immaculate Conception, or the Assumption, those kind of things…

peace
 
Please tell me how the things you list, do not come from the Magisterium…
Deacon Ed B
 
May I have your source please, for my use and edification. Thanks
Deacon Ed B
 
Is the ordinary (but not universal) Magisterium sometimes refered to as the Authentic Magisterium?
 
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