Vatican II: LAY FEMALE SEXUALLY ACTIVE EUCHARISTIC MINISTERS?

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… the traditions of the latin church with the new customs brought in by today’s conciliar church.
This is a very dangerous mentality to take. “Todays” Church is the same Church that has existed since the beginning. The Church of today is the same as the historical Church.

Why is it that only Catholics take a position that the modern Church is not the same as that of the past? I’ve never even heard protestants make that accusation.
 
why does vatican II allow lay female sexually active eucharistic ministers? Doesnt this defeat the historical rationale for mandating celibacy in the latin rite? By allowing this, don’t we basically have mini-female priests?
I’m not aware of anything in Vatican II that addressed sexually active female Eucharistic ministers. The problem with Vatican II is not so much what it did-it’s what those on the left and the right extremes of our faith claim it did. For those on the far right Vatican II pretty much destroyed the church gutting the liturgy and making the church no more than another Protestant denomination. For those on the left Vatican II freed us from the centuries of spiritual oppression and put us in an era where worship is secondary to feeling good about ourselves and being more “socially” aware.

Of course Vatican II did neither. We must beware of those who do things in the “spirit of Vatican II” as much as we should beware of those who make claims about Vatican II destroying traditional Catholicism.
 
I’m not aware of anything in Vatican II that addressed sexually active female Eucharistic ministers. The problem with Vatican II is not so much what it did-it’s what those on the left and the right extremes of our faith claim it did. For those on the far right Vatican II pretty much destroyed the church gutting the liturgy and making the church no more than another Protestant denomination. For those on the left Vatican II freed us from the centuries of spiritual oppression and put us in an era where worship is secondary to feeling good about ourselves and being more “socially” aware.

Of course Vatican II did neither. We must beware of those who do things in the “spirit of Vatican II” as much as we should beware of those who make claims about Vatican II destroying traditional Catholicism.
Vatican II did a lot of damage. I keep hearing that Vatican II was fine, it was liberals who distorted it by interpreting “the spirit of Vatican II.” But at what point do you step back and realize, if these documents can be so easily misinterpreted, maybe the documents themselves are deficient. This is what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre pointed out as well as Fr. Malachi Martin.

Patrick J. Buchanan points out the crisis in today’s church

theamericancause.org/patanindexofcatholicismsdecline.htm
 
** But at what point do you step back and realize, if these documents can be so easily misinterpreted, maybe the documents themselves are deficient.** This is what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre pointed out as well as Fr. Malachi Martin.
The same can be said for Scripture. Is it deficient?
 
Only if you’re looking for loopholes. 😉
Same goes with the documents of Vatican II. That is why those who do so always speak of the “Spirit of Vatican II” rather than the actual documents and what they say.
 
Vatican II did a lot of damage. I keep hearing that Vatican II was fine, it was liberals who distorted it by interpreting “the spirit of Vatican II.” But at what point do you step back and realize, if these documents can be so easily misinterpreted, maybe the documents themselves are deficient. This is what Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre pointed out as well as Fr. Malachi Martin.

Patrick J. Buchanan points out the crisis in today’s church

theamericancause.org/patanindexofcatholicismsdecline.htm
The same has been said about every document that the Church has ever produced. Why do you think that we have two versions of the Creed? Is the Apostles Creed deficient? No. Is the Nicean Creed perfectly clear? No, not unless you know the philosophy and theology that was behind it. Give it to a non-Christian and they don’t knnow what it means.

The documents of every council have always been under dispute long after the councils were over. Don’t let that be a discouragement. It’s human nature to analyze and sometimes over analyze.

The rules of every major religious family are still under scrutiny. Are they flawed? No.

If none of these writings are flawed, why are they under scrutinity and why are there so many interpretations? Because there is not such thing as the perfect document and there is no such thing as an omniscient human being. The authors never foresaw certain points and the readers don’t always understand the mind of the writer.

There is an interesting quality about Church writings. They are meant to tell the Truth. They are not meant to be comprehensible. That thought never crosses the mind of the Church. When the Church writes she focuses on her subject matter, not on the audience. When you write that way, you will always have a very confused audience. The understanding comes much later through many discussions and other documents that explain the first document.

The same was true in the scriptures. The Gospels had to be written to explain the teachings of the Apostles. Without the Gospels, the Epistles would have made no sense.

Today, we’re still seeing new documents that explain the conciliar documents, just like every other council before Vatican II. Do not think, for a moment, that every other council and its documents was so smooth. NOOOOOOOOOOOOT! 😃

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
sspx.org/miscellaneous/celibacy_for_deacons.htm

sspx position of the issue we are discussing. very interesting
From the article:

These deacons, of course, are in good faith.2 They do not know that by an imprescriptible law, they have incurred the penalty of major excommunication, from which they cannot be delivered until they either abandon their wives, or agree to be reduced to the lay state.

So the Church is knowingly leading men into eternal damnation.?So much for the Gates of hell not prevailing…
 
They are not meant to be comprehensible. That thought never crosses the mind of the Church. When the Church writes she focuses on her subject matter, not on the audience. When you write that way, you will always have a very confused audience. The understanding comes much later through many discussions and other documents that explain the first document.

The same was true in the scriptures. The Gospels had to be written to explain the teachings of the Apostles. Without the Gospels, the Epistles would have made no sense.
👍👍👍 Yes, this is exactly the way we were taught. There were some “mysteries” that we learned were better left that way. In fact, in the rosary we still have this reference to some of the “mysteries.”
 
sspx.org/miscellaneous/celibacy_for_deacons.htm

sspx position of the issue we are discussing. very interesting
Clearly they missed that part of the Bible where Paul speaks of married bishops. If those in the episcopacy can be married, I hardly find issue with married deacons.

Also, that article flat out lies about what was said at Nicea. Nowhere are deacons, bishops, or priests forbidden from being married. Nowhere. Look through the decrees of the Council yourself. It was not ever dogma. I don’t know how anything in this article can be trusted.

Furthermore, SSPX here is actually claiming that the Catholic Church is spreading false doctrine, that it is in fact heretical. To be honest, they sound about as Catholic as the Protestants during the Reformation, claiming that the Church has fallen into heresy.
 
From the article:

These deacons, of course, are in good faith.2 They do not know that by an imprescriptible law, they have incurred the penalty of major excommunication, from which they cannot be delivered until they either abandon their wives, or agree to be reduced to the lay state.

So the Church is knowingly leading men into eternal damnation.?So much for the Gates of hell not prevailing…
This statement by the SSPX also rasies the discipline of celibacy to dogma there by implying that every married Eastern Catholic priest and deacon are also excommunicated.

The Church can not teach error in way.
 
This statement by the SSPX also rasies the discipline of celibacy to dogma there by implying that every married Eastern Catholic priest and deacon are also excommunicated.

The Church can not teach error in way.
That is very dangerous. The holiness of celibacy is a dogma. Clerical celibacy is not a dogma. Two very different things.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
👍👍👍 Yes, this is exactly the way we were taught. There were some “mysteries” that we learned were better left that way. In fact, in the rosary we still have this reference to some of the “mysteries.”
You are very right. In addition, there are some things that require study and discussion. How long did it take the Church to anser two questions.
  1. Did God die on the cross?
  2. Is Mary the mother of God or the mother of Jesus?
The creeds taught that Jesus was truly God, consubstantial with the Father. Did the Father die? The creeds do not address this question. Are the creeds faulty?

The creeds taught that Mary conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. They do not say that Mary is the Mother of God. Are the creeds faulty?

The answers to these questions came through centuries of discussions and writings Heck, we’re still trying to explain Vatican I’s statements on infallibility. How long ago was that?

The concepts are not the problem. The problem is the audience. These documents were not written for the common man in the pew. They were written for bishops, major superiors of religious and theologians whose job it was to transmit the concepts to their local Churches.

Do not get discouraged. It takes time before everyone is on the same page.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
And yes, “extraordinary minsters of communion” either male or female, do diminish the significance of cellibacy in the latin rite. The whole reason why celibacy was adopted in the latin rite was because vaginal intercourse was seen as making a MAN unfit to handle the eucharist. So when you have “extraordinary ministers” who are not celibate handling the Body of Christ, it is theological confusion.
And that’s what’s wrong with your argument…the Church has never, through the official magisterium, taught that the marital embrace made anyone “unlcean” or that the act, in the context of a sacramental marriage, was one of impurity. Some Catholics believed that, but that’s not what the Church taught. It’s holy and good because it was created by God (used ouside it’s intended context, it’s also incredicbly dangerous, like all holy things are), according to St. Thomas Aquinas. So the marital embrace would not effectually make any difference in a woman helping to distribute the sacrament or a man, either a married man or a married priest (in the East now or the West as was). I very much doubt anyone is thinking about celibacy when they approach the Sacrament anyway, unless they themselves are struggling with it.
 
The problem with this thread, besides the fact that we’re repeating ourselves, is that there is an a priori assumption that the Church is wrong and that the individual is right. Just because one writer or several writers say that the Church is wrong, doesn’t make it so. These are their opinions. However, when it comes time to follow rules, the opinion of this or that writer is not what we follow.

I realize that some people feel a fondness for Archbishop Lefebvre. But we have to put things into proper perspective. Archbishop Lefebvre is not an authoritative source. He had an opinion on this subject. We should show his opinion the utmost respect, because he was a bishop. Respect and assent are not the same thing. Assent is only given to the person who has legitimate authority to govern.

The Church and the popes have spoken on this matter rather extensively. It is to the popes and those ecclesial bodies that the Church recognizes as authoritative to whom we must assent. There is no rule in the Church that says that we must agree with what is decreed. The rule is that we must assent to what is decreed. The Catholic Church is one of those governments that governs without the consent or the appreciation of the governed. She does not need our permission to govern us and tell us what to believe and what to do. That has been given to her by Christ. She does not need our appreciation to do it. We may not appreciate what she says, but we must assent to what she says.

If we went down the rout of consenting and appreciating as a prerequisite for valid authority, we would have no Church. On certain issues, there are as many opinions as there are Catholics. Just look at birth control, which was never declared an infallible teaching. However, the Church demands full assent.

I believe that many of us Catholics are beginning to show signs of entitlement when it comes to the Church. “We are entitled to an explanation,” or “We are entitled to be heard on every issue and every opinion that we have.” On this subject, we are showing the same false sense of entitlement. “We are entitled to have a satisfactory explanation for clerical celibacy in the Roman Church.” The truth is that we are not entitled, because we do not belong to a democratic Church. We are only entitled to those things that the Church says we may have. If she does not say that we may have it, then we’re not entitled to it and a satisfactory explanation is very subjective. What satisfies one person may not satisfy another. The Church has no obligation to offer explanations that satisfy everyone. The reason is simple. She has no obligation to do the impossible. You can’t offer an explanation that will satisfy two billion Catholics today and for the next 1,000 years. That’s a lot of people.

I’m a superior now, but I was in formation work for a long time. I always reminded those who came to inquire about our life that they were not entitled to join the community. They often came with the attitude that they had a vocation, because they believed that Christ was calling them. We had to set the record straight. One believes that Christ is calling and one does the best he can to respond. However, one will only know if Christ is truly calling, if the Church says so.

Ultimately, Christ’s speaks authoritatively through the Church, not through our feelings or our desires. Our feelings and our desires can be right on the money or can be way off the mark too. We will only know when the Church tells us. If the Church says that you may enter, you have your confirmation from Christ. If the Church says that you may not enter, you also have your confirmation from Christ. You are not entitled to enter a diocesan seminary or a religious community, because you believe. You are only entitled to enter, if Christ wants you to enter. That will only be known when the Church speaks. That’s how he communicates authoritatively. There is no other means of authoritative communication between Christ and man.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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