Wow. Meaningless? I’m sure neither of us were consulted or will be consulted. I still live “the cultural context of that time,” which is helped by the fact that it hasn’t disappeared in real life. I understand the current cultural context of life in these times and reject/do not involve myself in most of it. It is not better.It’s merely a literal translation of the original Latin, along with the cultural context of that time, which is meaningless in today’s understanding.
Jim
So when you meet people on the street they say, “peace be with you, " and you respond, " and with your spirit ?”Wow. Meaningless? I’m sure neither of us were consulted or will be consulted. I still live “the cultural context of that time,” which is helped by the fact that it hasn’t disappeared in real life. I understand the current cultural context of life in these times and reject/do not involve myself in most of it. It is not better.
Ed
“And also with you” doesn’t adequately express the sentiment.So when you meet people on the street they say, “peace be with you, " and you respond, " and with your spirit ?”
The greeting goes back to times when Latin was used in everyday life.
The Church has to tap dance around what it actually means within the context of the Mass today and I feel safe saying, few Catholics in the pews know.
“And also with you,” didn’t require explanation.
Jim
The topic is Vatican II liturgical reform. I was there before and after. I am referring to the Latin translation comment. Few Catholics in the pews don’t know what? When I attended my first NO Mass, and got a new missal later on, what was hard to know? This is how Holy Mother Church wants it. I am obedient.So when you meet people on the street they say, “peace be with you, " and you respond, " and with your spirit ?”
The greeting goes back to times when Latin was used in everyday life.
The Church has to tap dance around what it actually means within the context of the Mass today and I feel safe saying, few Catholics in the pews know.
“And also with you,” didn’t require explanation.
Jim
Was Pope Paul unaware of that? Or Pope John Paul II?So when you meet people on the street they say, “peace be with you, " and you respond, " and with your spirit ?”
The greeting goes back to times when Latin was used in everyday life.
The Church has to tap dance around what it actually means within the context of the Mass today and I feel safe saying, few Catholics in the pews know.
“And also with you,” didn’t require explanation.
Jim
Touché, my friend.Sorry, I didn’t mean to challenge you but I would like to point out that the English varied from handmissal to handmissal. There were no official translations in the pre-Vatican II Mass. For example, in a beautiful prayer removed by the reforms,
======================================================
Interlinear word-for-word translation.
Deus, qui humanæ substantiæ dignitatem
God, Who of human substance dignity
mirabiliter condidisti,
wonderfully has created,
et mirabilius reformasti:
and more wonderfully reformed:
da nobis per hujus aquæ et vini mysterium,
give to us through this of water and wine mystery,
ejus divinitatis esse consortes
His divinity to be partakers
qui humanitatis nostræ fieri dignatus est particeps,
Who in humanity our to become has granted partaker,
Jesus Christus Filius tuus Dominus noster:
Jesus Christ Son Your Lord our:
Qui tecum vivit et regnat
Who with You lives and reigns
in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus:
in union with Spirit Holy God:
per omnia sæcula sæculorum. Amen.
St. Joseph - “O God, Who hast established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and still more admirably restored it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, Who has condescended to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord. Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.”
for all ages of ages. Amen.
My Sunday Missal - “O God, Who hast established the nature of man in wondrous dignity, and even more wonderously hast renewed it, grant that through the mystery of this water and wine, we may be made partakers of His Divinity, Who has deigned to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord. Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God world without end. Amen.”
St. Andrew - “O God, Who in a wonderful manner didst create and ennoble human nature, and still more wonderfully hast renewed it; grant that, by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be partakers of His divinity who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ Thy Son, our Lord: who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.”
Fr Lasance - “O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew: by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God; world without end. Amen.”
Angelus - “O God, Who in creating human nature didst marvelously ennoble it, and hast still more marvelously renewed it: grant that by the mystery of this water and wine, we may be partakers of His Divinity Who vouchsafed to become partaker of our humanity, Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, Who liveth and reigned with Thee, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, one God, world without end. Amen.”
1857 Missal - “O God, who, in creating human nature, hast wonderfully dignified it, and still more wonderfully reformed it: grant that by the mystery of this Water and Wine, we may be partakers of his divine nature, who vouchsafed to become partaker of our human nature, namely, Jesus Christ one Lord, thy Son, in the unity of …”
Campion - "O God, Who in creating man didst exalt his nature very wonderfully and yet more wonderfully didst establish it anew by the mystery signified in the mingling of this water and wine, grant us to have part in the Godhead of Him Who hath vouchsafed to share our manhood Jesus Christ, Thy Son, Our Lord. WHo liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.
I’d like to know a bit more about paragraph 36, which you only partially quoted.“36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.”
“Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”
“116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.”
CONSTITUTION
ON THE SACRED LITURGY
SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 4, 1963
AND:
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20091117_lingua-latina_en.html
Ed
But little did they know this would lead into translation wars. Just sayin…I’d like to know a bit more about paragraph 36, which you only partially quoted.
3.** T****hese norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See.** And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.
- Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
- But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.