Vatican makes attempted ordination of Women a grave crime

[catharina]

LINUX

Before I leave for the day, I wish to express that my resentment is towards VII and nothing personal against the previous posters. I attend a novus order church and every week things seem to be going down hill. I believe in the only and only holy church of our lord christ and its teachings that have been passed down through the ages. Also believe that our lady foretold of a time of darkness. gtg

My dear, you have moved WAY PAST complaining and resentment.

You have accused the Church of false teaching.
Have you any idea how serious that charge is???

 

[Melchior_1]

LINUX

Before I leave for the day, I wish to express that my resentment is towards VII and nothing personal against the previous posters. I attend a novus order church and every week things seem to be going down hill.

You’re one of THOSE people (Linux)

Seriously though, you’d think that someone such as yourself would appreciate the logical order of a properly set up Microsoft Environment. To much can be added, modified, changed, with Linux. There is little uniformity, and for troubleshooting you often need to hit the grassroots and you get little to know enterprise/top level support.

Sort of like what you’re accusing VII of, actually.

In an 2003/2008 Active Directory environment the Enterprise Administrator holds the keys, like the Pope does. The EA can delegate Group Policy authority to another group (say, Domain Admins). So when the Domain Admins passes down Group Policy which effects the network, sometimes the policy has multiple effects. It could include something like “change the desktop wall paper” and “install security updates”.

A more complicated, but still valid, analogy.

 

[Stylites]

Very well said Christopher. It shows a complete lack of tact on the Vatican’s part, and all the reactionary crowing doesn’t change the fact that this will only alienate more people from a Church struggling to remain relevant in the 21st century.

Our Church is badly in need of reform, and this. is. not. it.

The Church cannot ordain women because she is following the directions of Jesus; her hands are tied. It is those who whine about women wanting to be priests who are the reactionaries. If Jesus were to come and call for the ordination of women then the Church would immediately do so. Any other thoughts regarding the ordination of women are not grounded in reality (and passing fads are never revelant - only reality is always revelant.)

.

 

[curlycool89]

To use your analogy, I feel like we went from a reasonably stable Windows 95 with our previous Pope to Windows Me with Ratzinger. This current program is full of security loopholes and viruses, the best course of action would be a completely new OS.

Actually, it went from Windows 98SE to ME. Not to nit pick or anything.

LINUX

Ok then. The Catholic Church is like Debian (stable), and Her retractors are like the people who complain that Debian (stable) never has bleeding new packages, right?

 

[Melchior_1]

To use your analogy, I feel like we went from a reasonably stable Windows 95 with our previous Pope to Windows Me with Ratzinger. This current program is full of security loopholes and viruses, the best course of action would be a completely new OS.

First off, Windows 95 was never stable as it pertains to an Enterprise environment. If you’re using IT comparisons the Church is more like Windows Server 2003 w/ Active Directory because, as I stated in another post, it’s a logical and hierarchical networked environment with centralized administration. Much like the Magisteruim of the Church.

All the switch from JP2 to BXVI did was change up the Enterprise Administrator. We’re still running the same network, just someone different is administrating the Group Policies. Keep in mind that although there are SEVERAL group policies, you’re stuck with what is there (much like the Original Deposit of Faith).

In this case, JP2 implimented a Group Policy that affected all computers on the network. When these computers were turned on, a startup script launched which made clear that women should not be ordained. This Group Policy was written into a specific piece of the Windows Registry and saved into a specific location on everyone’s computer. BXVI stepped in, and modified the Group policy so that although it is the same Group Policy, it is now being saved and run from a different location.

 

[rlg94086]

You’re one of THOSE people (Linux)

Seriously though, you’d think that someone such as yourself would appreciate the logical order of a properly set up Microsoft Environment. To much can be added, modified, changed, with Linux. There is little uniformity, and for troubleshooting you often need to hit the grassroots and you get little to know enterprise/top level support.

Sort of like what you’re accusing VII of, actually.

In an 2003/2008 Active Directory environment the Enterprise Administrator holds the keys, like the Pope does. The EA can delegate Group Policy authority to another group (say, Domain Admins). So when the Domain Admins passes down Group Policy which effects the network, sometimes the policy has multiple effects. It could include something like “change the desktop wall paper” and “install security updates”.

A more complicated, but still valid, analogy.

I’m thinking Califman831 is more of an OSX sort…closed system - much more stable.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

It is a magesterial infallible teaching.

From [webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MglIrnWNxTkJ:www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/SHAWINFA.TXT+pope+jp+ii,+female+ordination,+infallible+statement&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MglIrnWNxTkJ:www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/SHAWINFA.TXT+pope+jp+ii,+female+ordination,+infallible+statement&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) 
 
"As written in <Lumen Gentium>, that is so "when, even though dispersed throughout 
the world but preserving for all that amongst themselves and with Peter's successor 
[the pope] the bond of communion, in their authoritative teaching concerning matters 
of faith and morals, they [the bishops] are in agreement that a particular teaching is to 
be held definitively and absolutely."
 
**The Second Vatican Council teaching states that four conditions must be met for an **
**infallible exercise of the ordinary magisterium of bishops around the world. These are:**
 
**1. That the bishops be in communion with one another and with the pope.**
 
**2. That they teach authoritatively on a matter of faith or morals.**
 
**3. That they agree in one judgment.**
 
**4. That they propose this as something to be held definitively by the faithful.**
 
**Conditions met**
 
**In appealing to the infallibility of "the ordinary and universal magisterium," in its Nov. 18 statement, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith implicitly was saying these conditions are met in the case of the teaching that women cannot be ordained as priests. The statement cited <Lumen Gentium>."**

I suggest that you read the entire (and very brief) article.

The bishops were not brought in on this decision. It was not debated but dictated. What does this do to infallibility? I’d like to know how it would shake anyone’s faith if women were priests.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Using Trent, the Bible, and the teachings of saints and popes prior to mid-twentieth century as the standard. How can you not conclude that these changes of Vatican II are not heretical. Modernists are the ones who are disobedient to the faith.

So Vatican II is heretical? Why in the name of all that’s holy would you say this?

 

[catharina]

The bishops were not brought in on this decision. It was not debated but dictated. What does this do to infallibility? I’d like to know how it would shake anyone’s faith if women were priests.

Of course the bishops were brought in -
through ALL of Tradition in the history of the Church.

Because Jesus Himself ordained NO women,
not even His own mother, who could support such
a change in Church teaching now?

The logic of history stands behind this teaching.
Our faith is based in both Scripture and Tradition.
Neither supports a female priesthood.
Who could desire that we become more like Protestants?
They are to become more like us!

THE END.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Catherina, I’m telling you that the the bishops were not brought in on this. I happen to be related to a bishop. I respect all of your posts and I appreciate your links to authentic information. I don’t think you can cite one source for a discussion on this ex cathedra pronouncement. I may be wrong but I have looked for this for about a year. If the bishops are not brought in on the discussion, is it still taken as ex cathedra? I’m really confused on this subject.

 

[Corki]

The bishops were not brought in on this decision. It was not debated but dictated. What does this do to infallibility? I’d like to know how it would shake anyone’s faith if women were priests.

Which decision are you referring to?

It is not necessary to “bring the bishops in” to clarify the teaching that only men can be ordained since that’s been the constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years. It was not dictated, it’s always been that way. The teaching is infallible. What do you expect - the Pope to periodically poll all the Bishops to make sure they still agree with teaching that isn’t changing??

If you mean the topic of this thread, the bishops are not generally consulted for changes to canon law. That’s disciplinary and handled administratively at the Vatican. The decision to classify attempted ordination of women in one category of offense isn’t an infallible teaching. It’s simply an administrative change in how the offense is handled.

 

[rlg94086]

Catherina, I’m telling you that the the bishops were not brought in on this. I happen to be related to a bishop. I respect all of your posts and I appreciate your links to authentic information. I don’t think you can cite one source for a discussion on this ex cathedra pronouncement. I may be wrong but I have looked for this for about a year. If the bishops are not brought in on the discussion, is it still taken as ex cathedra? I’m really confused on this subject.

Ex cathedra (literally “from the chair” of Peter) refers to papal infallibility. The infallibility of the ordinary and universal Magisterium is not ex cathedra. See Corki’s post for an explanation of the infallibility of constant teaching of the Church. Pope John Paul II’s comments regarding female ordination is that it is not something we can institute since the priesthood, as instituted by Jesus Christ, did not include women from the very beginning of the Church.

Oh, for the record, being related to a bishop doesn’t give you any sort of special authority.

 

[catharina]

Catherina, I’m telling you that the the bishops were not brought in on this. I happen to be related to a bishop. I respect all of your posts and I appreciate your links to authentic information. I don’t think you can cite one source for a discussion on this ex cathedra pronouncement. I may be wrong but I have looked for this for about a year. If the bishops are not brought in on the discussion, is it still taken as ex cathedra? I’m really confused on this subject.

What could be discussed that can’t be found in 2000 yrs of Christian history.
Should the Pope pretend, ‘hey, let’s get together and discuss this?’

There was and there is no history of such a thing in our Church.
What the heck - let every bishop pop 5-10 thousands bucks for a flight to Rome
to discuss NOTHING??? This was obviously settled within our history. Basically, the
Holy Father was saying (and did say) there is nothing new to discuss about this.
How very very very very true. Do I care about female priests in any denomination?
No. I simply don’t. Protestants have made tons of errors. What’s one more?

 

[catharina]

Which decision are you referring to?

It is not necessary to “bring the bishops in” to clarify the teaching that only men can be ordained since that’s been the constant teaching of the Church for 2000 years. It was not dictated, it’s always been that way. The teaching is infallible. What do you expect - the Pope to periodically poll all the Bishops to make sure they still agree with teaching that isn’t changing??

If you mean the topic of this thread, the bishops are not generally consulted for changes to canon law. That’s disciplinary and handled administratively at the Vatican. The decision to classify attempted ordination of women in one category of offense isn’t an infallible teaching. It’s simply an administrative change in how the offense is handled.

Thank you!

 

[catharina]

Ex cathedra (literally “from the chair” of Peter) refers to papal infallibility. The infallibility of the ordinary and universal Magisterium is not ex cathedra. See Corki’s post for an explanation of the infallibility of constant teaching of the Church. Pope John Paul II’s comments regarding female ordination is that it is not something we can institute since the priesthood, as instituted by Jesus Christ, did not include women from the very beginning of the Church.

Again, YES.
Thank you!

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

Am I wrong in thinking the the Holy Father along with the bishops make up the Magisterium. Or is only the Pope?

 

[catharina]

Am I wrong in thinking the the Holy Father along with the bishops make up the Magisterium. Or is only the Pope?

The Holy Father and the Pope make up the Magesterium.

Now PLEASE read all of the preceding posts. Thank you.
(There could be no NEW decison! Why should anyone “meet” about it?)

 

[Callin]

From my elderly Catholic cousin again:

"In other denominations women are serving as priests. The Catholics will eventually come around as they have with many things. With the shortage of priests and bringing in married Episcopalians as priests they will be pressured into it or start losing parishes because of the lack of spiritual leaders.

Even non-Catholic churches who have female priests are experiencing a similar shortage of priests.

The shortage is not due to a lack of female priests, but the declining importance of religion and spirituality in our culture.

 

[Via_Dolorosa]

The Holy Father and the Pope make up the Magesterium.

Now PLEASE read all of the preceding posts. Thank you.
(There could be no NEW decison! Why should anyone “meet” about it?)

Hold your water!! Aren’t the Holy Father and the Pope the same person? I thought the Holy Father and the BISHOPS made up the magersterium? Am i wrong?

 

[catharina]

Hold your water!! Aren’t the Holy Father and the Pope the same person? I thought the Holy Father and the BISHOPS made up the magersterium? Am i wrong?

My dear, I already SAID you’re correct.
Yes, of course, the Holy Father and Pope
are two different names for the same person.

Now, ahem? A number of people have addressed your post.
Yet you’ve responded to none of them. WHY?