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catharina
Guest
Thank you. This can’t be said often enough. God bless you.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Philiswilling, I’m not sure what it is too late for. I agree that the Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways, and rather slowly. This current movement may die out, or it may continue to attract dissident Catholics to a new sect.
I trust that God in Her infinite wisdom will guide humanity in the right path. God’t ime is not our time!
StAnastasia
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Dale_M
Guest
hmmm… would you be willing to tell us the names of these two “rebel bishops?”
I’m not saying you are wrong, and certainly God the Father is traditionally referred to with male pronouns. And (for obvious reasons) so is Christ. But the Holy Spirit?
Do you have any authoritative citations to back up that claim, or is it conjecture to say that the Holy Spirit should be referred to as male?
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philiswilling
Guest
Holy cow! Where to begin?
God: male or female. You have to be kidding? The God of the Universe, who made everything is wholly unlike anything you or I can possibly imagine. Why are flowers of many colors and the major component of stars hydrogen and helium-because that was the image and likeness God has for them. Why God decided that most creatures on earth are male and female (there are a few that are neither), none of us know. We are stuck with only the ability to TRY to imagine all the goodness and love of God and nature of God. The men who wrote the the Old and New Testament used their ability to TRY to understand and decided that the correct pronoun was “he”. Remember that there is one Godhead and three distinct persons in the trinity all in one with the Godhead. The trinity does not say there are three persons of the same sex with beards and blue eyes. I believe Jesus used “Father” because to continually say “I am who am” is difficult. And back in a wholly male dominated world-not just Hebrews, nearly EVERYONE else, it would be the most understandable. It makes sense to me that when you speak to your audience you try to relate well with them. On the other hand at that time it was mandatory for us guys to get circumsized and women missed that one. Thankfully the early church decided that non-Jewish men (Jewish men were afterall the first Church Fathers) could keep everything they were born with so we stepped up to the level of women in that case. Laws and traditions have been changing since the very beginning.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin. Is it pardonable against the Father and the Son because they are male? Probably not. But Jesus told us this. There must be soemthing different.
There is nothing at all that says the Spirit of God is either or any sex. Imagine that-the Holy Spirit can work both sides of the aisle without distinction. And if the Holy Spirit speaks to a woman the vocation of being a priest in todays world, then maybe we are on an ordained path that will get us all there. Can I totally understand the Trinity? No. But it helps me to think of them as God the Family…God the Father, God the Son and God the Mother (Holy Spirit). I understand a family. It makes it simple for me to think of the three of them in relationship in this way. That’s not written anywhere. I just happen to like it.
No I don’t know the names of the two bishops, but there is a website for these ordained Catholic women. It tells of their history and what is happening today. But in this forum I don’t feel that it is my duty to put the website out there. If you go looking for it you’ll find it. I believe them to be courageous and not scared by pronouns; it’s ok with them if men are called to be priests. I can have my sins forgiven by saying an act of contrition, as long as I am sorry. If I decide to go to a women priest to hear my confession and I am truly sorry and she forgives me I think God will accept that. A human being in the Catholic organization may be incapable of that but I think God can easily get over that hurdle. And transubstaniation is a matter of total faith. You can be told this but to know this takes faith. The words in the bible are not that specific. In fact it says that he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples (not specifically only the apostals). Right? I haven’t looked this up before writing this. It’s coming off the top of my head. So I could easily be wrong-maybe in one of the gospels in one of the verses it says “gave it to his apostles.”
But I have no faith that if a pedaphile priest blesses the host with, the same hands and blessed fingers that were also used to abuse children, that anything happens at all. My belief and I don’t care who says I’m wrong about this. This is as grave as it gets. A mortal sin-unquestionably. Can it be forgiven-sure. But if continues to occur-even venial sins don’t get forgiven in this case.
Laicization? I had to look it up. I don’t know all the terms. So now we both know its a process. So now we know that a member of the clergy who sexually abuses our children gets to go through a process and in the end might not get to be a priest anymore. Do you have children? These men have no right to be a priest much less to a process. Our church has a long history of declaring guilt without the presumption of innocence first. But these guys get a process. Here is the right process-call the police. Make that an order to all bishops and priests who know this is happening. But excommunication is out of the question for them? Not only can they continue to recieve the sacrements in prison, if the laicization process isn’t done, there can adminster the sacraments. How in the world would this be the will of God.
Is pedaphilia and homosexuality a choice or not? Whatever you believe they have been and will continue to be ordained. Again what’s the rule “don’t ask, don’t tell”? Is it Gods will that these men be ordained or could there have possibly been some mistakes made?
But they are 100% more qualified than women. Why? They have a penis. Hence their nature makes them more suitable for ordination than women; women who believe that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, knowing that many of us are not listening as this could not possibly happen occur in Gods universe (as some high ranking officials in the church TRY to imagine the nature of an infinite mind.)
I am not a literalist when it comes to the bible. I believe there are a lot of parables and much of Genesis is that. And Christ was not always a literalist as he used parables all the time to help the people underestand. He taught the meaning of the law as important, not that the actual words were the most important thing.
I’m new on this forum and I read the rules and I’m not supposed to make these posts long. I’l try to get better at brevity.
God: male or female. You have to be kidding? The God of the Universe, who made everything is wholly unlike anything you or I can possibly imagine. Why are flowers of many colors and the major component of stars hydrogen and helium-because that was the image and likeness God has for them. Why God decided that most creatures on earth are male and female (there are a few that are neither), none of us know. We are stuck with only the ability to TRY to imagine all the goodness and love of God and nature of God. The men who wrote the the Old and New Testament used their ability to TRY to understand and decided that the correct pronoun was “he”. Remember that there is one Godhead and three distinct persons in the trinity all in one with the Godhead. The trinity does not say there are three persons of the same sex with beards and blue eyes. I believe Jesus used “Father” because to continually say “I am who am” is difficult. And back in a wholly male dominated world-not just Hebrews, nearly EVERYONE else, it would be the most understandable. It makes sense to me that when you speak to your audience you try to relate well with them. On the other hand at that time it was mandatory for us guys to get circumsized and women missed that one. Thankfully the early church decided that non-Jewish men (Jewish men were afterall the first Church Fathers) could keep everything they were born with so we stepped up to the level of women in that case. Laws and traditions have been changing since the very beginning.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is the only unpardonable sin. Is it pardonable against the Father and the Son because they are male? Probably not. But Jesus told us this. There must be soemthing different.
There is nothing at all that says the Spirit of God is either or any sex. Imagine that-the Holy Spirit can work both sides of the aisle without distinction. And if the Holy Spirit speaks to a woman the vocation of being a priest in todays world, then maybe we are on an ordained path that will get us all there. Can I totally understand the Trinity? No. But it helps me to think of them as God the Family…God the Father, God the Son and God the Mother (Holy Spirit). I understand a family. It makes it simple for me to think of the three of them in relationship in this way. That’s not written anywhere. I just happen to like it.
No I don’t know the names of the two bishops, but there is a website for these ordained Catholic women. It tells of their history and what is happening today. But in this forum I don’t feel that it is my duty to put the website out there. If you go looking for it you’ll find it. I believe them to be courageous and not scared by pronouns; it’s ok with them if men are called to be priests. I can have my sins forgiven by saying an act of contrition, as long as I am sorry. If I decide to go to a women priest to hear my confession and I am truly sorry and she forgives me I think God will accept that. A human being in the Catholic organization may be incapable of that but I think God can easily get over that hurdle. And transubstaniation is a matter of total faith. You can be told this but to know this takes faith. The words in the bible are not that specific. In fact it says that he broke the bread and gave it to his disciples (not specifically only the apostals). Right? I haven’t looked this up before writing this. It’s coming off the top of my head. So I could easily be wrong-maybe in one of the gospels in one of the verses it says “gave it to his apostles.”
But I have no faith that if a pedaphile priest blesses the host with, the same hands and blessed fingers that were also used to abuse children, that anything happens at all. My belief and I don’t care who says I’m wrong about this. This is as grave as it gets. A mortal sin-unquestionably. Can it be forgiven-sure. But if continues to occur-even venial sins don’t get forgiven in this case.
Laicization? I had to look it up. I don’t know all the terms. So now we both know its a process. So now we know that a member of the clergy who sexually abuses our children gets to go through a process and in the end might not get to be a priest anymore. Do you have children? These men have no right to be a priest much less to a process. Our church has a long history of declaring guilt without the presumption of innocence first. But these guys get a process. Here is the right process-call the police. Make that an order to all bishops and priests who know this is happening. But excommunication is out of the question for them? Not only can they continue to recieve the sacrements in prison, if the laicization process isn’t done, there can adminster the sacraments. How in the world would this be the will of God.
Is pedaphilia and homosexuality a choice or not? Whatever you believe they have been and will continue to be ordained. Again what’s the rule “don’t ask, don’t tell”? Is it Gods will that these men be ordained or could there have possibly been some mistakes made?
But they are 100% more qualified than women. Why? They have a penis. Hence their nature makes them more suitable for ordination than women; women who believe that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, knowing that many of us are not listening as this could not possibly happen occur in Gods universe (as some high ranking officials in the church TRY to imagine the nature of an infinite mind.)
I am not a literalist when it comes to the bible. I believe there are a lot of parables and much of Genesis is that. And Christ was not always a literalist as he used parables all the time to help the people underestand. He taught the meaning of the law as important, not that the actual words were the most important thing.
I’m new on this forum and I read the rules and I’m not supposed to make these posts long. I’l try to get better at brevity.
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pnewton
Guest
I think your last sentence sums everything up. If you stay here, you might only be confused by what the Catholic Church really teaches and how it seriously conflicts with this religion that you have made up. It is our position to learn from the Church, as the Bride of Christ and the representative of God’s kingdom. It is not our position to judge the Church, or to judge God, by our own transient standards.
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Corki
Guest
If you respond to multiple people, you might want to learn to use the multi-quote feature for clarity. I think this is the paragraph directed to me:
Yes, I have children.
First of all, starting the laicization process doesn’t mean the police *aren’t *called. I don’t know where you live, but in the US, the police are involved in cases of suspected clergy abuse. As stated earlier in this thread, in some countries, to call the authorities might endanger the life of the victim. That’s why the “rules” are developed nationally rather than universally. Here in the US, anyone working with children, not just priests, is reported if abuse is suspected. That’s the “order” as you call it. It already exists. Many of us are teachers and other professionals in the Church and are also mandetory reporters. The authorities don’t always act the way you would like. One of the recent “big” cases involved a priest who was reported to the authorities numerous times but the police couldn’t find enough evidence to prosecute. The Church can’t throw the priest in jail on her own authority. The Bishop can remove the priest from ministry, even if the police do nothing.
The Church does not wait for the authorities to remove a priest from ministry or to start the laicization process. All three things are happening simultaneously.
As I stated before, excommunication isn’t the right punishment for this type of sin. First of all, excommunication is temporary while laicization is permanent. Second, as horrible as the sin of abuse is, it is a sin against a person, not against the Church. Same thing for murder, by the way. Excommunication is almost always for sins against the Church such as heresy.
Is your life so lineal and either-or? Probably not and the processes in the Church aren’t either.
Yes, I have children.
First of all, starting the laicization process doesn’t mean the police *aren’t *called. I don’t know where you live, but in the US, the police are involved in cases of suspected clergy abuse. As stated earlier in this thread, in some countries, to call the authorities might endanger the life of the victim. That’s why the “rules” are developed nationally rather than universally. Here in the US, anyone working with children, not just priests, is reported if abuse is suspected. That’s the “order” as you call it. It already exists. Many of us are teachers and other professionals in the Church and are also mandetory reporters. The authorities don’t always act the way you would like. One of the recent “big” cases involved a priest who was reported to the authorities numerous times but the police couldn’t find enough evidence to prosecute. The Church can’t throw the priest in jail on her own authority. The Bishop can remove the priest from ministry, even if the police do nothing.
The Church does not wait for the authorities to remove a priest from ministry or to start the laicization process. All three things are happening simultaneously.
As I stated before, excommunication isn’t the right punishment for this type of sin. First of all, excommunication is temporary while laicization is permanent. Second, as horrible as the sin of abuse is, it is a sin against a person, not against the Church. Same thing for murder, by the way. Excommunication is almost always for sins against the Church such as heresy.
This is incorrect. Once a priest has been removed from ministry, which happens long before he goes to prison, he can no longer administer the Sacraments even if he hasn’t been laicized. The only usual exception is to hear the confession of a dying man. Sometimes the Bishop will allow the priest to say private Masses, meaning only he (the priest) is present.
Please be careful with statements like this. This belief is even more seriously wrong than your support of women’s ordination. This is a heresy that was dealt with by the early Church (4th century). It’s called Donotism. The Church has very clearly stated that the personal holiness of the priest has no bearing on the validity of the Sacraments he celebrates - especially confecting the Eucharist.
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catharina
Guest
**You have invented your own religion and that’s the central fact of your post.
Jesus left for us His Church - as our mother, teacher and servant, and as His bride.
In those roles, the Church teaches us Truth, because the Church has that authority.
Your objections and inventions are simply that.**
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catharina
Guest
Perhaps you can begin with this prayer.
(My classmates and I learned it in 1956-1957 prior
to receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation.)
O my God, I believe in Thee. Increase my faith.
I hope in Thee. Confirm my hope.
I love Thee. Make me love Thee more and more.
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StAnastasia
Guest
The Holy Spirit probably does not have a beard. As for God’s eye color, or whether the divine chromosomes are XY or XX, that remains to be determined.
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StAnastasia
Guest
“Donatism.”
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catharina
Guest
Both statements: absurd.
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rlg94086
Guest
Seriously, folks?
“qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine”
Ergo; Holy Spirit = masculine.
“qui conceptus est de Spiritu Sancto, natus ex Maria virgine”
Ergo; Holy Spirit = masculine.
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catharina
Guest
Not to mention, ALL of Tradition.
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StAnastasia
Guest
So all three of them are dudes?
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rlg94086
Guest
Yes - They are one “Dude.” And, we, the Church, are the “Dude’s” spouse.
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catharina
Guest
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rlg94086
Guest
I don’t mind using euphemisms when teaching children.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Cat, you need a sense of humour!
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StAnastasia
Guest
The all-male Trinity, is, of course, one model of God, but it is not the only one. You make an elementary theological mistake if you hypostatize one model and declare it to be the exclusively legitimate one.
StAnastasia
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rlg94086
Guest
Father = masculine
Son = masculine
Holy Spirit = conceived child with Virgin Mary = masculine
Mary = our mother = feminine
Church = Christ’s bride = feminine
Of course, these roles are all theological. With the exception of Jesus, the Holy Trinity is beyond human gender as the Creator of the universe. The comments about chromosomes, eye color, beards, etc. are all juvenile.
I haven’t made any elementary theological mistakes that I can tell. Please point out my error. Make sure you include citations from the Bible and/or Church Fathers referring to the Holy Spirit as our mother, sister, great-aunt, etc.
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