VATICAN - Pope encourages the growth of cooperatives as an economic model that serves the common good [AN]

[Johann_du_Toit]

I cannot agree that money is “dung of the devil”. People can be devlish about money, no question about it. But I have come to think about it, in the ordinary course of things, as something approaching an expression of gratitude. People don’t part with money readily. And yet, if there is something they really want or need, they’ll trade money for it. For most people, money is the product of their labor. I work in a service business, and when people hand me money for my work, I take it as a sign of appreciation for my work. They can’t trade work for work directly, so they do the next best thing, and so do I.

I like something St. Thomas Aquinas said about justice in trade. A trade is just, he said, when one person gives something he values less for something he values more. Most economic relationships are actually like that. If I value, say, the utility of a car to me more than I value, say, $10,000 gained by my labor, I obviously value the car more than I value the labor it took to get the $10,000 or I wouldn’t buy the car at all. I’m not seeing “dung of the devil” in any of that.

(I know $10,000 isn’t a lot for a car. I only buy used cars myself.)

There are cooperatives in our history. My electricity comes from a cooperative that once was really a cooperative, but is now just another corporation. Cooperatives on a small scale can, I think, be viable. But I think their utility is pretty limited. Possibly the Pope is talking about something that applies more to the third world than it does to the first.

Remember the his Holiness is a Pastor, not an economist (no offence intended). Their primary concern is the salvation of souls, not your bank account. The Pope’s pronouncements in that regard are not infallible.
But the Church would be advocating it’s moral duty if it didn’t say the current system has too many cracks and is not benefiting a substantial part of the population.
To quote FDR: “Try something, and it it doesn’t work, try something else. But try something”

 

[ProVobis]

Remember the his Holiness is a Pastor, not an economist (no offence intended). Their primary concern is the salvation of souls, not your bank account. The Pope’s pronouncements in that regard are not infallible.

Indeed.

But the Church would be advocating it’s moral duty if it didn’t say the current system has too many cracks and is not benefiting a substantial part of the population.
To quote FDR: “Try something, and it it doesn’t work, try something else. But try something”

But envy over those richer than you is against moral code as well.

I think I heard it reported that pretty soon 1% of the world’s population will soon be controlling 99% of the world’s wealth. While that seems rather “unfair” do realize that 1% translates to over 70,000,000 people, hardly a number that you want to make enemies with. Just sayin…

 

[LongingSoul]

I think I heard it reported that pretty soon 1% of the world’s population will soon be controlling 99% of the world’s wealth. While that seems rather “unfair” do realize that 1% translates to over 70,000,000 people, hardly a number that you want to make enemies with. Just sayin…

• 805 million people in the world do not have enough food to lead a healthy active life. That’s about one in nine people on earth.
• Poor nutrition causes nearly half (45%) of deaths in children under five - 3.1 million children each year.

wfp.org/hunger/stats

Those figures need to mean something to the 1% controlling the 99% of wealth.

 

[LongingSoul]

There are cooperatives in our history. My electricity comes from a cooperative that once was really a cooperative, but is now just another corporation. Cooperatives on a small scale can, I think, be viable. But I think their utility is pretty limited. Possibly the Pope is talking about something that applies more to the third world than it does to the first.

I feel quite confident that the Pope is addressing his teaching (I consider this relates to ‘teaching’ in the eyes of the world)… to the whole world. I suppose it will be clearer during his aeroplane aisle interview after his Washington and United Nations visit in the US later this year. He is doing what he does in articulating the big issues, reminding people of the moral absolutes and throws the ball to the public arena for discussion. The Pope and the Church have long been respected as a guardian of human morality on the world stage.

 

[estesbob]

• 805 million people in the world do not have enough food to lead a healthy active life. That’s about one in nine people on earth.
• Poor nutrition causes nearly half (45%) of deaths in children under five - 3.1 million children each year.

wfp.org/hunger/stats

Those figures need to mean something to the 1% controlling the 99% of wealth.

And the solution is?

 

[LongingSoul]

And the solution is?

1. The Church has realized that the need to heed this plea is itself born of the liberating action of grace within each of us, and thus it is not a question of a mission reserved only to a few: “The Church, guided by the Gospel of mercy and by love for mankind, hears the cry for justice and intends to respond to it with all her might”.[153] In this context we can understand Jesus’ command to his disciples: “You yourselves give them something to eat!” (Mk 6:37): it means working to eliminate the structural causes of poverty and to promote the integral development of the poor, as well as small daily acts of solidarity in meeting the real needs which we encounter. The word “solidarity” is a little worn and at times poorly understood, but it refers to something more than a few sporadic acts of generosity. It presumes the creation of a new mindset which thinks in terms of community and the priority of the life of all over the appropriation of goods by a few.
2. Solidarity is a spontaneous reaction by those who recognize that the social function of property and the universal destination of goods are realities which come before private property. The private ownership of goods is justified by the need to protect and increase them, so that they can better serve the common good; for this reason, solidarity must be lived as the decision to restore to the poor what belongs to them. These convictions and habits of solidarity, when they are put into practice, open the way to other structural transformations and make them possible. Changing structures without generating new convictions and attitudes will only ensure that those same structures will become, sooner or later, corrupt, oppressive and ineffectual.

Pope Francis - EVANGELII GAUDIUM

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

 

[ProVobis]

Those figures need to mean something to the 1% controlling the 99% of wealth.

I’m sure there are a few producers there in the population of 700,000,000. Again, you don’t want to make enemies there.

 

[estesbob]

1. The Church has realized that the need to heed this plea is itself born of the liberating action of grace within each of us, and thus it is not a question of a mission reserved only to a few: “The Church, guided by the Gospel of mercy and by love for mankind, hears the cry for justice and intends to respond to it with all her might”.[153] In this context we can understand Jesus’ command to his disciples: “You yourselves give them something to eat!” (Mk 6:37): it means working to eliminate the structural causes of poverty and to promote the integral development of the poor, as well as small daily acts of solidarity in meeting the real needs which we encounter. The word “solidarity” is a little worn and at times poorly understood, but it refers to something more than a few sporadic acts of generosity. It presumes the creation of a new mindset which thinks in terms of community and the priority of the life of all over the appropriation of goods by a few.
2. Solidarity is a spontaneous reaction by those who recognize that the social function of property and the universal destination of goods are realities which come before private property. The private ownership of goods is justified by the need to protect and increase them, so that they can better serve the common good; for this reason, solidarity must be lived as the decision to restore to the poor what belongs to them. These convictions and habits of solidarity, when they are put into practice, open the way to other structural transformations and make them possible. Changing structures without generating new convictions and attitudes will only ensure that those same structures will become, sooner or later, corrupt, oppressive and ineffectual.

Pope Francis - EVANGELII GAUDIUM

w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

Well that is all very well and good but how is this put into practice? How do we determine what belongs to the poor?

As a small businessman I employee 7 people. Does that count or does it have to come from the govt??

 

[LongingSoul]

Well that is all very well and good but how is this put into practice? How do we determine what belongs to the poor?

As a small businessman I employee 7 people. Does that count or does it have to come from the govt??

Why not just give your voice and heart to the sociological change called for by the Pope? There was a time when women weren’t given the vote and black people were discriminated against. People rose up and tried to change those things for a long time before it happened. The reality is that it takes the support of the silent majority or at least their dropping their illogical resistance, for the movement to make inroads. For example, its obvious that a society that carries a high rate of youth unemployment or cannot provide decent health care for a great margin of its citizens… is not making full use social ethics. It’s obviously insane that people are starving in some parts of the world while others generate trash and food waste by the ton. We have to actively invite change.

 

[estesbob]

Why not just give your voice and heart to the sociological change called for by the Pope? There was a time when women weren’t given the vote and black people were discriminated against. People rose up and tried to change those things for a long time before it happened. The reality is that it takes the support of the silent majority or at least their dropping their illogical resistance, for the movement to make inroads. For example, its obvious that a society that carries a high rate of youth unemployment or cannot provide decent health care for a great margin of its citizens… is not making full use social ethics. It’s obviously insane that people are starving in some parts of the world while others generate trash and food waste by the ton. We have to actively invite change.

Because nobody has enunciated to me just what it is the Pope is calling for.What sociological change is he calling for ? For instance I provide the livelihood for 10 families and yet you tell me that’s not enough? The absolute best solution for all that ails man is a good job-yes we see the employer held out as the villain. Why s that?

 

[Phemie]

Cooperatives can be wonderful but as long as human sinners are involved greed rears its ugly head. I belong to my local Co-op grocery store. It started with the usual cooperative ethos: pool our money, buy at the cheapest rate, sell at a small profit and pay dividends to the shareholders. Worked very well.

Somewhere along the way, the board decided that it would be a good idea to pay the manager a bonus based on gross profit. What could possibly go wrong?!? Today our sales are high but so are the prices. The only person who truly benefits is the person with a vested interest in keeping prices high. Sure, the shareholders get a bigger dividend cheque at the end of the year, but most would rather see lower prices at the check out.