Vatican: Pope was 'completely extraneous' to Munich sex abuse decision [CNA]

[tweetymom]

I think you’re missing the point. It isn’t whether it’s right or wrong. It’s clearly wrong if the priest is, indeed, guilty. It’s a matter of perspective. Was it wrong for bishops to send these priests to counselling and therapy as the psychiatrists of the day suggested? Hindsight is 20/20, of course. Psychiatry has changed now and they’re saying the problem is incurable. This wasn’t known then. The bishops sent them to the psychiatrists, who “treated” them, and claimed them “cured” and “ready for duty.” The bishops usually aren’t trained, professional psychiatrists, so they have to trust those folks who are.

With regard to shouting it from the rooftops, as you seem to suggest, I don’t think that would’ve been a good idea either. Because it doesn’t just shame the priest, it shames the victim and the victim’s family. Many families begged to keep it quiet when they found out because they didn’t want their family name all over the newspapers.

There are other issues involved, too.

First, if the bishop found out because the priest confessed the sin to him, then the bishop must remain silent. He has no choice.

Second, there is the possibility of the sin of detraction, depending on circumstances.

Third, just because someone accuses a priest of abuse doesn’t mean he’s guilty, and many times it’s one person’s word against another. So, the bishop, in all fairness, must be very careful not to commit an unjustice against the priest in case he is innocent. Wouldn’t it be easy to get rid of all the priests if all we had to do is claim they abused someone? The non-Catholics could close the Church down in about a week, because we’d have no priests left. Currently, a priest who is accused is pulled off of active ministry until an investigation can be done.

So, the reality of it is that it’s not as clear-cut as it may seem to those reading a news article.

You know what shouting from the rooftops does? It lets the molested hold their chin up high, and sayI am not the guilty one and it frees you from guilt. Back when I was molested it was shhh don’t tell cause then everyone will know. Well I am glad that I am not ashamed of this thing that was done to me as a child and can talk about it.

This being kept in the dark is what makes one feel guilty. At the time the CC was not so concerned with the plight of the victims just the blot it would leave on the Church. So shh and it will all go away. Well it never goes away and those sicko’s can never be healed from this that they do.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You know what shouting from the rooftops does? It lets the molested hold their chin up high, and sayI am not the guilty one and it frees you from guilt. Back when I was molested it was shhh don’t tell cause then everyone will know. Well I am glad that I am not ashamed of this thing that was done to me as a child and can talk about it.

This being kept in the dark is what makes one feel guilty. At the time the CC was not so concerned with the plight of the victims just the blot it would leave on the Church. So shh and it will all go away. Well it never goes away and those sicko’s can never be healed from this that they do.

I don’t think that’s true in all cases. Especially in the past 10 years. Our archdiocese has Project Gennereset to help with the healing of abuse victims.

30 years ago, people didn’t understand abuse was not curable.
Oddly, the reason for that is from research done for homosexual orientation change programs.

I’m sorry you were abused by a religious. That is plain wrong and sinful. I’m glad you have found healing.

 

[silentstar]

You know what shouting from the rooftops does? It lets the molested hold their chin up high, and sayI am not the guilty one and it frees you from guilt. Back when I was molested it was shhh don’t tell cause then everyone will know. Well I am glad that I am not ashamed of this thing that was done to me as a child and can talk about it.

This being kept in the dark is what makes one feel guilty. At the time the CC was not so concerned with the plight of the victims just the blot it would leave on the Church. So shh and it will all go away. Well it never goes away and those sicko’s can never be healed from this that they do.

Shouting it from the rooftops would have helped me. I was 7 when a priest raped me (he was staying in our home overnight and my family and I were very devout) and he played these head games about “taking my virginity.” I was not old enough to understand what that meant at the time but I understood it when I got older. What I understood was that my not being “pure” or whatever, was something to be ashamed of.

b/c of what had been done to me, I could never be a good Catholic. That is what he said.

I think some people miss the fact that victims are often told they are bad, terrible people, or at least acting badly, by abusers. And if everyone else stays quiet, victims tend to think it is their own personal problem of evil or “badness.” Giving this stuff publicity provides the chance for other people to say that it’s not the child’s fault which former victims can hear that being said and then some people feel better.

That is one of the major points of therapy and it’s why so many survivors/former victims end up in therapy. Not to be self-indulgent, but b/c a lot of us had our minds messed with to the point where we don’t know what the truth is on some important issues.

Not everyone has to come forward and not every priest who did bad things will be held accountable. But the environment I grew up in was one where I was repeatedly told not to have sex until I got married, which the priest specifically said I had transgressed on and was bad about.

A Church that promotes sexual purity is really potentially messing with the minds of child victims who may feel really ashamed that it’s too late for that. I happen to believe that the sexual assaults themselves are usually not as damaging as the destructive beliefs that survivors develop based on them.

however, having said that: I do feel bad for the majority of priests who have acted well and then have to confront this. It can’t be easy. They are victims too, maybe secondary ones. I know that a small % of priests abused, but I think a problem is that many offenders abused a large number of children, as many of them tend to do.

 

[tweetymom]

Shouting it from the rooftops would have helped me. I was 7 when a priest raped me (he was staying in our home overnight and my family and I were very devout) and he played these head games about “taking my virginity.” I was not old enough to understand what that meant at the time but I understood it when I got older. What I understood was that my not being “pure” or whatever, was something to be ashamed of.

b/c of what had been done to me, I could never be a good Catholic. That is what he said.

I think some people miss the fact that victims are often told they are bad, terrible people, or at least acting badly, by abusers. And if everyone else stays quiet, victims tend to think it is their own personal problem of evil or “badness.” Giving this stuff publicity provides the chance for other people to say that it’s not the child’s fault which former victims can hear that being said and then some people feel better.

That is one of the major points of therapy and it’s why so many survivors/former victims end up in therapy. Not to be self-indulgent, but b/c a lot of us had our minds messed with to the point where we don’t know what the truth is on some important issues.

Not everyone has to come forward and not every priest who did bad things will be held accountable. But the environment I grew up in was one where I was repeatedly told not to have sex until I got married, which the priest specifically said I had transgressed on and was bad about.

A Church that promotes sexual purity is really potentially messing with the minds of child victims who may feel really ashamed that it’s too late for that. I happen to believe that the sexual assaults themselves are usually not as damaging as the destructive beliefs that survivors develop based on them.

:extrahappy: And I am so glad that I csn shout it from the roof tops. Men of God right, the abuser and the coverer up are equally gulity and need to be kicked out no matter who they are. God Bless you and you are in my prayers.

 

[Liquid47]

A couple rejoinders

1. I didn't suggest that married priests is a-solve-all solution to the problem. But it does provide a healthy, holy, loving outlet for God-given sexual needs. Marriage can also provide an intimacy apart from sex that people need. I feel that many priests lead lonely lives. Sorry, but that's my impression. Certainly, many priests left the active priesthood to marry. God bless them all - and I hope they and their spouses have been/are happy.

If priests lead lonely lives, and they felt the need to marry, then their devotion to God through the priesthood was not strong enough for them to sustain a ministerial position. Child molestation would go under that category. Marriage then, would go under this category. I’m not trying to undermine marriage, which I will elaborate in my next comment. However, the use of marriage to relieve a priest of his sexual frustration might turn the sacred union between man and woman upside down.

1. Yes, there is infidelity among a small number of ministers, to be condemned, though the vast majority (like priests) keep their vows. Still, infidelity is not comparable to predatory exploitation of teenagers, nor is it breaking the law of the land. Infidelity does not send people to jail while sex with underage teens should.

I was not talking about ministers. I was talking about any union between man and woman, whether civil or acknowledged by the Church. Generally speaking, men are, by nature, seeking the most fertile woman. Women, by nature, seek strong genes and security. Extramarital affairs can more often than not be pinned down by our spouses’ lack of primal attraction at a particular point in time. And yet we could never excuse infidelity as just being part of human nature. Likewise, we should not attempt to excuse priests from relieving their sexual frustration just because they’re biology attempts to.

 3. Personally, I honor a devoted family man as much as any clergyman, whether that clergyman is married or unmarried. Family men assume major responsibilities that priests do not undertake. I know, as I am a family man.

If you would read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, that is the stance Catholics around the world are to believe. It is why Marriage is one of the seven Sacraments, alongside Holy Orders. One is not above the other, and vice versa. They co-exist, though they generally are mutually exclusive (because there are exceptions, I believe). In fact, a priest once told me during confession that he believed Marriage is probably the more difficult of the two.

1. Mary may or may not have been a perpetual virgin.

Matt 1:25 is nothing new, and while I would gladly read all of Matthew again, I can’t understand trying to study the Bible through modern lenses, which is what many non-Catholic Christian bible classes try to do. You know our position on the implication of “until”, and it doesn’t change. The Church hasn’t imploded on itself since we made it dogma, so it might mean we’re on the right track

Nevertheless, that is not the point of the matter. Understand from a Catholic perspective, most people in ministerial positions lead single lives from the point of their ministry. Peter was married, but he left everything to lead the Church after Jesus. Paul was the same, as well as the other apostles. We’ve passed this tradition on for 2000 years, and I don’t think it will change anytime soon.

Maybe Jesus knew something. Maybe he knew we were finite. Maybe he knew we were limited in capacity. Maybe he knew this, so that when his people decided to take up a ministerial position, that is, the Priesthood, they would devote themselves fully to God and his Church in the way that keeps the Church going. I would argue that Holy Orders makes the Sacrament of Marriage all the more special, because without it, there would be no more people to populate God’s green earth.

 

[dekutrash]

Actually, it does matter if all the media points out is the Catholic Church doing it, because people then get the false impression that this is the only organization where the problem exists. In effect, it ends up ignoring 99% of the problem and ends up as a sort of lie! IF the problem is that serious, then the media should report on ALL the problems. Unless, of course, there is an anti-Catholic agenda. Then, it’s clear why they’re singling out the Catholic Church.

The media DOES point out when it happens in other places such as schools. There will be much more on the attention on our Church simply because…well it’s the Church for crying out loud! If the media reported on every molestation case then there would have to be a whole channel for it, it simply can’t be done.

And unfortunately people are getting the impression more and more that it exists only within the Church because nothing serious is being done to address the issue.

I have no idea where people get off on an anti-Catholic agenda, society as a whole whether they are Catholic or not expect much more from Priests. Naturally there will be much more coverage on it.

Jeez it feels like I just keep on repeating myself.

 

[qui_est_ce]

:extrahappy: And I am so glad that I csn shout it from the roof tops. Men of God right, the abuser and the coverer up are equally gulity and need to be kicked out no matter who they are. God Bless you and you are in my prayers.

Tweety, I have a friend who shouted abuse by her stepfather from the rooftops. She talked about it with everyone she met. Ad Nauseum. She had been in therapy for years. It wasn’t bringing her healing. She finally went on a CRHP retreat with me, and I told her to go to Confession. She had never in her life gone, even though she was Catholic. I accompanied her to the door, and then left her. She went kicking and screaming.

When she came out, she was a new person. I could see she was completely healed by the peace in her eyes.

There is much Evil in the world, and I pray always for the victims. But good will always overcome evil if you open yourself to Christ’s healing powers.

We have a very angry SNAP organization in our town. I understand their anger, but they are trying to bring the Catholic Church down. Their anger is destroying them. They foster this anger and try to get others in on their vicious agenda.

I am so happy that you found healing in Jesus. You have definitely practiced what Jesus told you to do - He desires MERCY and forgiveness. That’s supernatural!

God bless you.

 

[qui_est_ce]

The media DOES point out when it happens in other places such as schools. There will be much more on the attention on our Church simply because…well it’s the Church for crying out loud! If the media reported on every molestation case then there would have to be a whole channel for it, it simply can’t be done.

Not true. Below is one example. If you Google, you will find MANY, MANY more with similar state laws.

hakedown: Ripped off in the Name of Justice

By Francis X. Maier
The Tidings
August 25, 2006

the-tidings.com/2006/0825/maiertwo.htm

In most states — including Colorado — there’s one big difference between sexual abuse in public and private institutions, with huge consequences for public school parents like my wife and me. The fact is, it’s much easier — and much more lucrative — to sue the Catholic Church, or any church or private organization, than it is to sue the local public school district.

The reason is simple: Public school districts enjoy governmental immunity unless state law-makers say otherwise. And so far, the legislators in most states have kept that immunity in place. As a result, public school districts have a drastically reduced financial exposure with incidents of sexual abuse.

Under March 2006 Colorado law, and in many other states, my wife and I can recover a great deal more money, with much less effort, if our son Dan is abused by a priest at our local church than if he’s raped by a teacher or coach at his school. Parents in states like ours have much less time to identify, report and legally pursue sexual abuse committed by a public school employee than if the same abuse is committed by the employee of a religious or private organization. The amount of money they can recover in damages is also sharply limited — in Colorado, $150,000.

And yet, according to the data, children are more likely to be sexually abused in a public school setting than at their local parish. Most state lawmakers either don’t seem to know this or simply don’t care. The message sent to parents of public school students is clear: Sexual abuse at the hands of a public school employee is less grievous and less expensive than exactly the same abuse at the hands of a pastor or Sunday school teacher. Something is grotesquely wrong with that kind of lawmaking.

And unfortunately people are getting the impression more and more that it exists only within the Church because nothing serious is being done to address the issue.

Again, not true. There are projects in Archdioceses now to help victims and abusers are no longer shuffled around. Most of the cases you hear about today are from years ago, when priests were put in rehab and declared “cured.” Now we know better. The “cover up” in many cases was as much on the part of the families, as the Church. They didn’t want to expose their children to unwanted and embarrassing attention.

03/28/2002 - Updated 08:42 PM ET
We had a public school employee here sexually abuse a student. No background check done on him. What was reported in big headlines was “Defrocked St. Louis priest investigated” The article talks about what he did as a priest but downplays the fact the the public school system is where he was arrested for molestation. And then they lied about the recommendations they received about him.

Defrocked St. Louis priest investigated
ST. LOUIS (AP) — Prosecutors said Thursday they are investigating about 50 complaints of child sexual abuse, including up to 22 against a defrocked priest who worked as an elementary school counselor. The complaints follow a public appeal by Circuit Attorney Jennifer Joyce’s office last week for information about possible cases of sexual abuse by current or former Catholic priests. The defrocked Roman Catholic priest who worked as a counselor until last week was charged Thursday with exposing himself to two boys in an elementary school

usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/03/28/priest.htm

I have no idea where people get off on an anti-Catholic agenda, society as a whole whether they are Catholic or not expect much more from Priests. Naturally there will be much more coverage on it.

And rightly so. Just interesting that an atheist press holds the Catholic Church to a higher standard than NAMBLA.

 

[tweetymom]

Tweety, I have a friend who shouted abuse by her stepfather from the rooftops. She talked about it with everyone she met. Ad Nauseum. She had been in therapy for years. It wasn’t bringing her healing. She finally went on a CRHP retreat with me, and I told her to go to Confession. She had never in her life gone, even though she was Catholic. I accompanied her to the door, and then left her. She went kicking and screaming.

When she came out, she was a new person. I could see she was completely healed by the peace in her eyes.

There is much Evil in the world, and I pray always for the victims. But good will always overcome evil if you open yourself to Christ’s healing powers.

We have a very angry SNAP organization in our town. I understand their anger, but they are trying to bring the Catholic Church down. Their anger is destroying them. They foster this anger and try to get others in on their vicious agenda.

I am so happy that you found healing in Jesus. You have definitely practiced what Jesus told you to do - He desires MERCY and forgiveness. That’s supernatural!

God bless you.

Thank you for your post. It is not that I talk about this evil deed all the time, that wouldn’yt make sense. Bujt when and if the occaision arises like now I do. Jesus has indeed healed me. I still do feel anger when I hear of it now whoever it may be and the fact that it is covered up, no excuses for that. Get it out of the dark anf deal with it in the light.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Thank you for your post. It is not that I talk about this evil deed all the time, that wouldn’yt make sense. Bujt when and if the occaision arises like now I do. Jesus has indeed healed me. I still do feel anger when I hear of it now whoever it may be and the fact that it is covered up, no excuses for that. Get it out of the dark anf deal with it in the light.

I agree about not covering it up. But as I said earlier, I think it was more a case of they didn’t know any better at the time.

These “new” allegations against the Pope are people digging in the past for dirt. There is nothing wrong with allowing a sex offender to get psychiatric help. At the time, they thought there was a cure.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I don’t think the gravity of the situation is clearly understood. If, in the1980s, when J. Ratzinger was Abp of Munchen, this was not understood, I think I can hazzard a guess that this has been going on for centuries, and not a few centuries, either. Throughout a long period of church history, then, this has been going on. A cancer grew on the Body of Christ, that now threatens to weaken it further. I am not faulting Joseph Ratzinger for his actions, nor am I faulting the vicar who made the immediate decision concerning this priest.

Ratzinger, his brother, and a whole host of priests, bishops, cardinals and popes have grown up in a “look the other way” culture. This culture is toxic and perverse. This has been a feature of Catholic church life, probably for centuries.

Let me add that it is not only a Catholic issue. Certainly it has existed among Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox, and non-denoms, especially any group that has run schools, orphanages, etc. We hear numerous stories about other clergy, other professionals abusing their authority to abuse children. This happens everywhere. But the churches, the place where children should be safe, safe as at the feet of Jesus, have become places to be wary for the safety of children.

Our Lord cleansed the temple of money changers. He said they had made his Father’s house a den of theives. The church that does not prevent sexual abuse of children is far worse than a den of theives. If all we were dealing with were theives or money changers, how easy our task would be.

Again, in the 1980s they thought psychiatric help would cure the problem. But what did they think in the 1950s, the 1920s etc? Did they think at all?

I agree about not covering it up. But as I said earlier, I think it was more a case of they didn’t know any better at the time.

These “new” allegations against the Pope are people digging in the past for dirt. There is nothing wrong with allowing a sex offender to get psychiatric help. At the time, they thought there was a cure.

 

[tweetymom]

I agree about not covering it up. But as I said earlier, I think it was more a case of they didn’t know any better at the time.

These “new” allegations against the Pope are people digging in the past for dirt. There is nothing wrong with allowing a sex offender to get psychiatric help. At the time, they thought there was a cure.

May the allegations are true, maybe not. I wasn’t there so I do not know. One way to set it straight is for whoever was involved to stand up even if it is the Pope.

 

[tweetymom]

I don’t think the gravity of the situation is clearly understood. If, in the1980s, when J. Ratzinger was Abp of Munchen, this was not understood, I think I can hazzard a guess that this has been going on for centuries, and not a few centuries, either. Throughout a long period of church history, then, this has been going on. A cancer grew on the Body of Christ, that now threatens to weaken it further. I am not faulting Joseph Ratzinger for his actions, nor am I faulting the vicar who made the immediate decision concerning this priest.

Ratzinger, his brother, and a whole host of priests, bishops, cardinals and popes have grown up in a “look the other way” culture. This culture is toxic and perverse. This has been a feature of Catholic church life, probably for centuries.

Let me add that it is not only a Catholic issue. Certainly it has existed among Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox, and non-denoms, especially any group that has run schools, orphanages, etc. We hear numerous stories about other clergy, other professionals abusing their authority to abuse children. This happens everywhere. But the churches, the place where children should be safe, safe as at the feet of Jesus, have become places to be wary for the safety of children.

Our Lord cleansed the temple of money changers. He said they had made his Father’s house a den of theives. The church that does not prevent sexual abuse of children is far worse than a den of theives. If all we were dealing with were theives or money changers, how easy our task would be.

Again, in the 1980s they thought psychiatric help would cure the problem. But what did they think in the 1950s, the 1920s etc? Did they think at all?

The church whichever one needs to stand up and clean house from the top to the bottom like Jesus did. Tell the truth and stand up for what is right.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

This brings up an interesting point. I hope, that when it comes time for a new conclave to elect a new pope, that the pope they choose will have been a bishop with a verifiable record of dealing with this problem, and that he be still young enough to not be entrenched in the old ways of silence.

May the allegations are true, maybe not. I wasn’t there so I do not know. One way to set it straight is for whoever was involved to stand up even if it is the Pope.

 

[Alex_Luciano]

All this stuff is seriously getting to my nerves, there is another scandal coming out of Brazil, edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/03/18/brazil.sexual.abuse/ , I honestly think the Church needs to get over the whole “this happens everywhere” **** and deal with the real issue, the priesthood is infiltrated with a GAY SUBCULTURE…I have seen it myself as an ex-seminarian. There is a very palpable gay subculture in many seminaries and this continues into the priesthood. We have a Church with an alarming number of priests who do not believe what they preach. Celibacy is not really the issue here but unfortunately it seems, at least in my experience, that the fact that priests do not marry serves as an escape for many young men confused about their sexuality. If priests were expected to be married men like anyone else then you wouldn’t have an alarming number of homosexuals infiltrating. This is a real problem and the Church will suffer very much until this issue is openly discussed. A little letter ain’t gonna cut it.

 

[tweetymom]

All this stuff is seriously getting to my nerves, there is another scandal coming out of Brazil, edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/americas/03/18/brazil.sexual.abuse/ , I honestly think the Church needs to get over the whole “this happens everywhere” **** and deal with the real issue, the priesthood is infiltrated with a GAY SUBCULTURE…I have seen it myself as an ex-seminarian. There is a very palpable gay subculture in many seminaries and this continues into the priesthood. We have a Church with an alarming number of priests who do not believe what they preach. Celibacy is not really the issue here but unfortunately it seems, at least in my experience, that the fact that priests do not marry serves as an escape for many young men confused about their sexuality. If priests were expected to be married men like anyone else then you wouldn’t have an alarming number of homosexuals infiltrating. This is a real problem and the Church will suffer very much until this issue is openly discussed. A little letter ain’t gonna cut it.

Agreed except married men are also sickos sometimes. House needs cleaning from top to bottom

 

[Alex_Luciano]

Agreed except married men are also sickos sometimes. House needs cleaning from top to bottom

True, married men can have their issues, but what I’m getting at is that the celibacy thing unfortunately attracts a fairly large number of men who have sexual developmental issues. It is quite scary. If the Church wants to hold to the rule of celibacy (which I believe in) then it must stress chastity from top to bottom at the seminary. Unfortunately sexuality is not something that the seminary stresses enough. A life of chastity and celibacy (they are not the same thing) is hard but is very much desirable and expected of any faithful single Christian. The Church is looking away and not addressing the issue head on. I have reason to believe that some dioceses, due to lack in vocations, sort of ignore the psychological analysis of many of its seminarians or just hope sexual immaturity issues will disappear. I say we start writing our bishops.

 

[Liquid47]

True, married men can have their issues, but what I’m getting at is that the celibacy thing unfortunately attracts a fairly large number of men who have sexual developmental issues. It is quite scary. If the Church wants to hold to the rule of celibacy (which I believe in) then it must stress chastity from top to bottom at the seminary. Unfortunately sexuality is not something that the seminary stresses enough. A life of chastity and celibacy (they are not the same thing) is hard but is very much desirable and expected of any faithful single Christian. The Church is looking away and not addressing the issue head on. I have reason to believe that some dioceses, due to lack in vocations, sort of ignore the psychological analysis of many of its seminarians or just hope sexual immaturity issues will disappear. I say we start writing our bishops.

I would have thought celibacy would have naturally called for chastity as well. I don’t know how priests could try find a loophole in that one. It’s like thanking God and Jesus and trying to dodge the Holy Spirit.

 

[tweetymom]

I would have thought celibacy would have naturally called for chastity as well. I don’t know how priests could try find a loophole in that one. It’s like thanking God and Jesus and trying to dodge the Holy Spirit.

A perverted person never thinks what they do is wrong, for them this is normal.

 

[qui_est_ce]

This brings up an interesting point. I hope, that when it comes time for a new conclave to elect a new pope, that the pope they choose will have been a bishop with a verifiable record of dealing with this problem, and that he be still young enough to not be entrenched in the old ways of silence.

That would be Archbishop Raymond Burke

Below is an article describing what the Church in the United States is doing to to get to the root of this scandal

bishop-accountability.org/usccb/natureandscope/dioceses/stlouismo.htm