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Theo520
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But not starving,
Food insecure is also not defined as undernourished.
Face it, you resorted to hyperbole and misrepresented the situation.
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Food insecure is also not defined as undernourished.
Face it, you resorted to hyperbole and misrepresented the situation.
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Ridgerunner
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Pope Pius XII witnessed a Europe which, while it seemed nationalistic, was imperialistic with visions of multi-state governance. Pope Francis’ statement rightly reflects the inability of small and weak states to determine their own destiny in a global economy. Even the Pope Benedict encyclical seems tailored to small and potentially unstable states.
Difficult for many Americans to understand, as the U.S. is a “continental economy” itself, and with an almost seamless integration with the Canadian economy, it’s really not dependent on multinational organizations, and certainly not international political ones. If European (or Latin American) states don’t trust themselves, that’s a decision for them to make. The U.S. does not depend for political stability on any other states or group of states and most Americans trust America far more than we do other states or multinational organizations, many of which have not been in existence very long. As has been noted previously, the U.S. governmental system is one of the oldest on earth and, but for the Civil War, has remained basically stable throughout its history.
As far as I know, the Church does not disdain the U.S., particularly since, if it were not for the U.S. much or all of the world would now be ruled by some of the worst governments mankind has ever devised.
Difficult for many Americans to understand, as the U.S. is a “continental economy” itself, and with an almost seamless integration with the Canadian economy, it’s really not dependent on multinational organizations, and certainly not international political ones. If European (or Latin American) states don’t trust themselves, that’s a decision for them to make. The U.S. does not depend for political stability on any other states or group of states and most Americans trust America far more than we do other states or multinational organizations, many of which have not been in existence very long. As has been noted previously, the U.S. governmental system is one of the oldest on earth and, but for the Civil War, has remained basically stable throughout its history.
As far as I know, the Church does not disdain the U.S., particularly since, if it were not for the U.S. much or all of the world would now be ruled by some of the worst governments mankind has ever devised.
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Zzyzx_Road
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Italy is currently run by a coalition of the leftist and strong euroskeptic party Movimento Cinque Stelle, the nationalist and anti-migrant party Lega Nord and a couple of lesser parties. Though all of the parties have socialistic leanings, Wikipedia labels this coalition as center-right when they are more accurately labelled center-left.
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HarryStotle
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We can best understand Pope Pius’ point by highlighting the words, “unlimited authority.” Of course, he was addressing specifically the unlimited authority claimed by fascist, communist and national socialist states, as well as every earthly political authority, including supposed unions of nations such as the EU if they go about claiming “unlimited authority.”
It doesn’t bolster your point to claim that a supranational union of states claiming “unlimited authority” is fine as far as Pope Pius was concerned because he was only referring to “unlimited authority” claims made at the level of the national state. That would be completely misrepresenting his position.
His words don’t support a supranational union of states any more than they support any one particular state claiming “unlimited authority.” He is claiming that human rights transcend any human political organization, in the same way that the American Constitution recognizes inalienable rights – i.e., that such rights transcend every political state and CANNOT be rescinded or annulled by political states of any form whether singly or in some united super state. Neither individual states nor amalgams of states have the authority to alter or annul inalienable human rights – “this natural way that is inherent in man.” That was his point.
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abucs
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You are talking in circles, going off in tangents and bringing up sophistry on many fronts while not intelligently responding to what I say. In short you are saying very little of substance and are all over the place. Either be intelligent, stick to one subject or go away and try to control someone else’s language.
You are not getting anywhere with me with his silly non intellectual approach.
I am hearing exactly what you are attempting to say and I am disagreeing with you. Since it is my speech and I have rejected your request any continual insistence is you trying to control my speech.
The answer to your request for me to change my language is no. I have been more than patient with you in explaining why, although no explanation is really necessary. That was a courtesy to you. A wasted courtesy.
The answer is no.
You are not getting anywhere with me with his silly non intellectual approach.
I am hearing exactly what you are attempting to say and I am disagreeing with you. Since it is my speech and I have rejected your request any continual insistence is you trying to control my speech.
The answer to your request for me to change my language is no. I have been more than patient with you in explaining why, although no explanation is really necessary. That was a courtesy to you. A wasted courtesy.
The answer is no.
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abucs
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I think pope Pius XII (a great pope) was talking at a delicate time when socialism was on the rise and such ideology claimed state power for everything from economics to culture and ethics.
Many see the EU as another incarnation of what turned out to be a non democratic repressive form of secular governance.
Many support bringing it down or at the least transforming it back to the loose collection of nation states that it was originally set up to be. It is quite likely because of migration policies a nationalist bloc will emerge as the biggest grouping in the EU parliament.
I am hoping that happens this May, especially from the United Kingdom.
Many see the EU as another incarnation of what turned out to be a non democratic repressive form of secular governance.
Many support bringing it down or at the least transforming it back to the loose collection of nation states that it was originally set up to be. It is quite likely because of migration policies a nationalist bloc will emerge as the biggest grouping in the EU parliament.
I am hoping that happens this May, especially from the United Kingdom.
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AlNg
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Not according to the thesaurus which lists starving and undernourished and hungry as synonyms. And I have heard people say at Thanksgiving time: The turkey smells delicious. I can’t wait to eat. I am starving.
Further, almost everyday I bump into someone who has all of his or her belongings in a cart and is begging for money for a bite to eat. In a conversation i had recently, I asked the starving beggar if he knew about the shelter and gave him the location for it. He said that he had gone there but they were overcrowded and would not accept any more people. He asked if I could give him some money so he could buy some food.
You are in denial if you do not think that there are hungry, undernourished, miserable, homeless people on the streets of America begging for a bite to eat.
There are miserable homeless people sleeping in the local library and as long as they do not go into the children’s section, the librarians do nothing.
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PickyPicky
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Absolutely. All posters on political issues should recite this three times before breakfast.
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Vouthon
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Nazi Germany was understood by the Vatican to be, in the words of Pope Pius XI, a regime which: “exalt[ed] race, the people [and] the State above their standard value and divinize[d] them to an idolatrous level…None but superficial minds could stumble into concepts of a national God, of a national religion; or attempt to lock within the frontiers of a single people, within the narrow limits of a single race, God, the Creator of the universe” (Mit brennender Sorge , 8, 1937). This is the same pontiff who had, a decade before, uttered the following proclamation in a different encyclical:
“[It is] grave injustice when true love of country is debased to the condition of an extreme nationalism, when we forget that all men are our brothers and members of the same human family … it is “justice which exalteth a nation, but sin maketh nations miserable” (Proverbs 14:34)” (Pope Pius XI’s Ubi Arcano Deil Consilio (1922)).
Later on in 1929 that same pontiff condemned nationalism again, this time in the context of Italian Fascism and its militarism:
Divini Illius Magistri, encyclical by Pope Pius XI (1929)
You cannot deny that the church discerned ‘nationalism’ in these interwar regimes and that this particular manifestation exorcised them greatly, because it violated church doctrine concerning human solidarity, fraternal brotherhood under the natural and supernatural law of grace, and supranational society.
The Church’s reading of Nazi ideology and of nationalism taken to extremes, was one of the most insightful of the pre-war era, given that its informed sources and interlocutors were churchman on the ground in Germany, Italy and the other countries.
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Vouthon
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Then after the war, Pope Pius XII called for the formation of a supranational ‘European Union’ in 1948, above the nation-states in Europe, again condemning what he called the ‘narrow-minded nationalism’ that had provoked the preceding global conflict. He reiterated this in 1957:
Address of His Holiness Pope Pius XII to the European Parliamentary Assembly (1957)
Address of His Holiness Pope Pius XII to the European Parliamentary Assembly (1957)
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Vouthon
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And that supranational Union in Europe that Pope Pius XII desired was to look like this:
Address of His Holiness Pope Pius XI to the Congress of Europe (1957)
Address of His Holiness Pope Pius XI to the Congress of Europe (1957)
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F_Marturana
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I think Lega Nord is just Lega now.
It originally was pro- northern Italy, and believed Southern Italy was too much of a strain economically on Italy as a whole and on the north in particular.
Too much tax money went towards the south due to natural disasters like earthquakes (thus the taunt, “terremotati” used by northerners to describe southerners) and due to the high unemployment rate. There was even a disdain towards southerners relocating to the north.
I find it truly ironic for any Southern Italian to be in the Lega.
It originally was pro- northern Italy, and believed Southern Italy was too much of a strain economically on Italy as a whole and on the north in particular.
Too much tax money went towards the south due to natural disasters like earthquakes (thus the taunt, “terremotati” used by northerners to describe southerners) and due to the high unemployment rate. There was even a disdain towards southerners relocating to the north.
I find it truly ironic for any Southern Italian to be in the Lega.
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Kaninchen
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It’s still very ‘Padania’ though in organisation and objectives.
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Vouthon
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Worth mentioning that the Lega is no longer in favour of leaving the EU or Eurozone, nor is the 5Star.
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Kaninchen
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A cynic might suggest that the EU is very necessary to the Lega and M5S - blaming somebody else is likely to be a key factor in their futures.
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Ridgerunner
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The “nationalism” that prevailed in Europe almost from the very founding of nation states often went awry. It developed into a more-than-nation-state obsession. Napoleon began, of course, with a nation state, but then developed a supranational organization by conquest. The Church had specific bones to pick with particular nationalisms, like the Italian version that wiped out the Papal States, and the German one that resulted in Bismarck’s anti-Catholic laws in Germany. The Russian empire was mainly Orthodox, but was, as Lenin called it “…the prison house of nations”. The Swedish empire was another “nationalism” gone bad. The “nationalism” of Europe was the incubator of war to achieve continental empires.
As I said before, if European nations don’t trust themselves because of their past, then that’s something they need to work out. But in today’s world, it’s difficult to picture the necessity of, say, Britain, which has not sought a continental empire since the Renaissance, needing restraint.
From an American standpoint, it does seem European states seem fatefully drawn to the very kind of supranationalism that has done them far more harm than nationalism itself ever did.
As I said before, if European nations don’t trust themselves because of their past, then that’s something they need to work out. But in today’s world, it’s difficult to picture the necessity of, say, Britain, which has not sought a continental empire since the Renaissance, needing restraint.
From an American standpoint, it does seem European states seem fatefully drawn to the very kind of supranationalism that has done them far more harm than nationalism itself ever did.
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Theo520
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You didn’t use “starving” in the context of “I really want dinner”
Synonyms are not definitions.
You used it to misrepresent how well people are being fed in the US.
v. starved , starv·ing , starves
1. To suffer or die from extreme or prolonged lack of food.
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Theo520
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Referencing the primary modern definition of the word “starve” is hardly being “so technical”
You are deflecting still from your misuse of the term to facilitate hyperbole. “Food Insecure” cannot be replaced by “starving”
You are deflecting still from your misuse of the term to facilitate hyperbole. “Food Insecure” cannot be replaced by “starving”
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tomarin
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But ‘peckish’ can be substituted for ‘food insecure’.
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Vouthon
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What manner of supranationalism would that be?
With the exception of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which was a multi-national dynastic union with quasi-federal representation of the many nationalities under Hapsburg rule, every other major continental empire that I can think of was designed with a colonial nationalist master-state on top, which suppressed and extorted heavy tribute from subject peoples at their expense in the numerous client provinces.
That’s not supranationalism and again you attack the actual principle which is part of Catholic doctrine.
The Russian Empire was structured to benefit Russia as it’s imperial master; the various German Empires to benefit Germany; the Swedish Empire to benefit Sweden and so on, just like the overseas British Empire (and it’s European colonies like Malta and Gibraltar) was an edifice built to enrich Britain at the expense of natives in the colonies.
That’s a form of aggrandized nationalism, with a nation-state at the centre exploiting foreigners whom it rules. Protectionist, isolationist nation-statism is another form, and neither are endorsed by the Catholic Church.
Only the Hapsburgs lacked a national identity at the imperial level which had expanded to dominate other, subject nationalities.
These empires were therefore “nationalism” in it’s absolute worst form (huge super-nations fat on the largess reaped from their extorted, oppressed territorial holdings) and yes, their fatal competition between each other, industrialization and arms race, not to mention territorial disputes from within and without, did much to provoke the First World War (along with little nationalist Serbia whipping up ethnic unrest in Austria-Hungary).
Out of all the empires of the 19th-20th century, if you need to compare it with something, the EU is most akin to Hapsburg Austria-Hungary, a multi-national union, in asmuch as (contrary to your rather unfortunate Germanohysteria) the EU is not a “German union” or a “French union” but rather a union with a supranational European identity governed by European institutions based in Brussels which stands above the nations and limit their sovereignty by their voluntary delegation in certain areas, just as the Hapsburgs had the Catholic dynastic identity based in Vienna.
Prior to it’s collapse, the Vatican supported the Hapsburg Empire and indeed Catholics continued to pray for the health of it’s Emperor in our Latin missals for decades after the collapse of the Empire, until Vatican II removed the obligatory prayers for the Holy Roman Emperor during the Easter exsultet - including the missals used in the republican United States at this time, I will add.
Indeed, it’s last Emperor during WW1 - Blessed Karl of Austria - was posthumously beatified by our church (while his son Otto Von Hapsburg became an MEP in the European Parliament). You forgot this I take it?
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