Vatican: Receiving Eucharist kneeling will be norm at papal liturgies

[Brendan]

We read the letter. Do you understand Joysong’s post?

Did you read any of my posts? We are talking about being reasonable, and considering the whole community, not just what we are allowed to do, and our own preference. Pope Benedict himself said that this is his personal preference, but does not in any way lessen the other options or the authority of the Bishops.

What part about it being a personal preferece don’t you understand, why are you trying to add additional restrictions unto what the Church has declared to be so.

Do you, or anyone else, know more that the Vatican when it decides what is the congregation is to do as a whole, and what can be done as individuals? If you think that the Vatican did not give sufficent attention to the 'community as a whole" why don’t you write the CDWDS. That’s the only authority that can change it.

There is a hierachy of documents, but this doesn’t concern you. That is not about your “right”

You even were arrogant enough to question the GIRM. And you expect others to believe this is about reverence & devotion.

I have seen no one question the GIRM. What I have seen is you question what the Canonical Authority on the GIRM has decreed to be the authentic interpretation of it. Why do you rely on your own, instead of the interpretation that has been given by the source legally entitled to do so.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Your tunnel vision, false accusations and lack of charity noted—perhaps you missed this
GIRM

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

Furthermore, the USCCB, while indicating that Holy Communion should not be refused to a communicant who is kneeling and wants to receive on the tongue, some sort of pastoral catechesis should be given to the person. **That is not necessarily correct **because, again, kneeling is the norm, standing is the option.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

No one is debating the issue of kneeling during the EP.

What happened to the universal norm of standing for the EP? I see, so when the US adaptations suit you, you follow them, and if they don’t, you feel it is within your authority to dismiss them. Are you in the US?

I do understand your position, given your comment about the GIRM.

Any reports of action against priests or bishops who direct their congregation to stand for Holy Communion?

Lux

 

[KathleenElsie]

Your tunnel vision, false accusations and lack of charity noted—perhaps you missed this
GIRM
Quote:
160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benedictgal forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Furthermore, the USCCB, while indicating that Holy Communion should not be refused to a communicant who is kneeling and wants to receive on the tongue, some sort of pastoral catechesis should be given to the person. **That is not necessarily correct ***because, again, kneeling is the norm, standing is the option.

And then you are taken to the wood shed and told not to do it again. The reason given was that it “slows” to procession. So in the USA those of us that desire to kneel as is the NORM are given a tongue lashing and told not to do it again.

 

[KathleenElsie]

What happened to the universal norm of standing for the EP? I see, so when the US adaptations suit you, you follow them, and if they don’t, you feel it is within your authority to dismiss them. Are you in the US?

I do understand your position, given your comment about the GIRM.

Any reports of action against priests or bishops who direct their congregation to stand for Holy Communion?

Lux

That is another thread if you want to start it.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

And then you are taken to the wood shed and told not to do it again. The reason given was that it “slows” to procession. So in the USA those of us that desire to kneel as is the NORM are given a tongue lashing and told not to do it again.

How is this responding to the fact that you have placed your interpretation over the GIRM? Must you always try for the last word, even if your response is just a smokescreen?

Someone spoke if Bishops loosing credibility because they don’t provide kneeling places. I think that goes far more strongly for you.

Lux

 

[Brendan]

What happened to the universal norm of standing for the EP? I see, so when the US adaptations suit you, you follow them, and if they don’t, you feel it is within your authority to dismiss them. Are you in the US?

L&T, it is YOU who do not understand the GIRM.

First of all, there is NO Universal Norm of Stading in the Latin Rite. The Eastern Churchs have that Norm, but the Universal Norm in the Latin Rite is kneeling, not standing.

In addition, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal are the liturgical instructions and rubrics that apply to the Missal issued in 2002. In other words, it the rubrics of the OF.

The EF has it’s own set of rubrics, and Pope Benedict specifically stated in Summorum Pontificum that one should not mix the rubrics. So unless one seeks to disobey the Pope, one cannot attempt to apply the OF Particular Norm of stading to the EF.

And then you are taken to the wood shed and told not to do it again. The reason given was that it “slows” to procession. So in the USA those of us that desire to kneel as is the NORM are given a tongue lashing and told not to do it again.

No, you are incorrect. The faithful cannot be told not to do it again because the Vatican says that they have the right to do so and that it is their personal choice. In addition, they cannot be considered to be disobedient.

Any person, clergy or lay, who attemts to either restrict the right of the faithful to make this choice, or who consideres them to be disobedient, violates specific instructions to the contrary from Rome.

I have yet to see any ‘catecisis’ that does not violate the above restrictions. What type of ‘tounge lashing’ can be given to someone who claims that kneeling is a liturgical norm that applies to the entire Latin Church? Because it is true.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

BR

You really need to try and follow the discussion, and keep posts straight. It was not I who posted your second quote, and it was Bgal who questioned the GIRM.

And it is you who doesn’t understand the Communion procession or where it ends.

Perhaps you could get a refresher from Joysong’s post, but please try to remember who posted what and quote them accurately.

And after you get the posts & facts straight, do brush up on you people skills if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Lux

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

PS

L&T, it is YOU who do not understand the GIRM.

First of all, there is NO Universal Norm of Stading in the Latin Rite. The Eastern Churchs have that Norm, but the Universal Norm in the Latin Rite is kneeling, not standing…

oops wrong again—
from the GIRM on the Vatican website

1. **The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, **except at the places indicated below.
   They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.[53]

Lux

 

[fix]

Reversing the logic, it is just as much a defiance to kneel while everyone else is standing for communion.

How is it defianace when it is allowed?

It does cause one to believe that cafeteria choices are being made according to one’s feelings, rather than in obedience to the approved adaptations and intent of the GIRM towards unity.

Rome has spoken. People may kneel. Why not assume the best? If I see someone kneeling to receive when others stand I am edified.

The bickering on this issue is not about kneeling. It is about something deeper.

 

[benedictgal]

BR

You really need to try and follow the discussion, and keep posts straight. It was not I who posted your second quote, and it was Bgal who questioned the GIRM.

And it is you who doesn’t understand the Communion procession or where it ends.

Perhaps you could get a refresher from Joysong’s post, but please try to remember who posted what and quote them accurately.

And after you get the posts & facts straight, do brush up on you people skills if you want anyone to take you seriously.

Lux

I did not question the GIRM. I questioned people’s faulty and erroeous interpretations of it. Please be accurate in your assessement and in your statements.

Furthermore, what I said was that the universl norm is to receive Holy Communion kneeling and on the tongue. The adaptation allows for standing and receiving in the hand. You cannot be labeled a dissident or a rebel for simply opting to receive Holy Communion following the universal norm.

 

[benedictgal]

How is it defianace when it is allowed?

Rome has spoken. People may kneel. Why not assume the best? If I see someone kneeling to receive when others stand I am edified.

The bickering on this issue is not about kneeling. It is about something deeper.

Unfortunately, there are those who will post just to post with little regard as to accuracy and correct interpretation of the GIRM. Furthermore, as you pointed out, there is no way you can be disobedient or in defiance if you are adhering to what is the universal norm for the Church.

I suspect that the deeper issue is that there is a great deal of resistance to the Holy Father’s reform of the reform. There is not hing wrong with the OF. It’s the manner in which people, conferences and committees have tinkered with it that is the problem.

The fact that Rome has definitively spoken on the matter of kneeling to receive Holy Communion seems to fall on deaf ears.

 

[Joysong]

Fix:

How is it defianace when it is allowed?

I agree with you. It is allowed and I have said so numerous times already. However, it is not the mind of the Church, who would prefer that we all follow the directive of the pastor or bishop, and constructed the rubric accordingly. Due to man’s inability to accept the directiive of standing [the US adaptation], the Church in the US allows it by concession rather than see a person deprived of the Eucharist.

It purplexes me why the opponents are so upset about this, but have no opinion about the other universal norm to stand throughout the canon until the end of mass? This seems to be a pick-and-choose mentality based on one’s private preference. I would wager that these same people who oppose the adaptation [standing] and opt for the universal norm of kneeling for communion would yell to the rafters if they were made to stand through the canon. There, too, the adaptation for the US permits kneeling, and that one they eagerly accept.

So I ask, why is US adaptation opposed when one prefers to follow the ‘universal norm’ of kneeling for communion – yet there is another ‘universal norm’ that says to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer, which they ignore? Well, in that case they are eager to adopt the US adaptation and overule the universal norm. Fickle bunch, or rather as the GIRM calls them, “arbitrary.”

 

[Joysong]

The fact that Rome has definitively spoken on the matter of kneeling to receive Holy Communion seems to fall on deaf ears.

B’gal, you are not stating this correctly, unless you believe there is another document besides the GIRM to which you are referring. I would need to see your source, for I see nothing in the older GIRM or subsequent GIRM regulations that spells out that people are to kneel for communion. It may be traditional in many areas of the globe, but the directions I read say this:

History and Interpretation of the Norm

In the 1967 document Eucharisticum mysterium (Instruction on the Worship of the Eucharistic Mystery), the Sacred Congregation of Rites (now called the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments) established that,

1. … In accordance with the custom of the Church, the faithful may receive communion either kneeling or standing. One or the other practice is to be chosen according to the norms laid down by the conference of bishops.

At the time this directive was issued the US Bishops did not establish a posture, although Communion processions with reception standing quickly became the custom throughout the United States, as they did in much of the world.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal (3rd edition) gives the same legislation, stating,

160 … The faithful may communicate either standing or kneeling, as established by the Conference of Bishops.

Acting upon this provision of the GIRM, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) sought and obtained, in March 2002, a particular norm for the United States.

1. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
   ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_posture.htm

I see nowhere that the norm is kneeling, but “kneeling or standing.” So when you promote your theory as truth, it seems clear you are dubbing in your own opinion, which is misinformed as I see it.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Well as the person that was told NO WAY I can assure you they do so even if they are not “allowed” to do so.

Any person, clergy or lay, who attemts to either restrict the right of the faithful to make this choice, or who consideres them to be disobedient, violates specific instructions to the contrary from Rome. Tell them that, I am just a small old woman that wears a funny thing on my head.

I have yet to see any ‘catecisis’ that does not violate the above restrictions. What type of ‘tounge lashing’ can be given to someone who claims that kneeling is a liturgical norm that applies to the entire Latin Church? Because it is true./quote]

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I did not question the GIRM. I questioned people’s faulty and erroeous interpretations of it. Please be accurate in your assessement and in your statements. .

You didn’t question the GIRM???

Originally Posted by Lux et Tenebrae

GIRM

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm

.

Originally Posted by benedictgal
Furthermore, the USCCB, while indicating that Holy Communion should not be refused to a communicant who is kneeling and wants to receive on the tongue, some sort of pastoral catechesis should be given to the person. **That is not necessarily correct **because, again, kneeling is the norm, standing is the option.

 

[Joysong]

B'gal #174:

While the adaptations exist, you cannot overrule what the universal norm is. It is not arbitrary. The adaptation doesn’t overrule the universal norm.

I think you are mistaken again. Kindly provide a source that says US adaptations are to be ignored in favor of the universal norm. WHICH, by the way, is not “kneeling” but “kneeling OR standing” per all the versions of the GIRM that I have located. So there again, you are stretching it to mean something in accord with your interpretation and passing the mistruth on to the rest of us.

I almost bought it, except for that nagging inner “something” that said I should check it out. I could not substantiate your claims.

Even before the adaptation was permitted to the US for standing, the GIRM was stated as either/or, universally. Details in post #191.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I almost bought it, except for that nagging inner “something” that said I should check it out. I could not substantiate your claims.

Even before the adaptation was permitted to the US for standing, the GIRM was stated as either/or, universally. Details in post #191.

Thanks for listening to that nagging inner something,

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

After second thought —two can share the title for passing misinformation.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Actually there are a few who could share that title

We have bgal who thinks the GIRM is not correct

And Br who doesn’t know when a Communion procession ends(he leaves everyone standing or kneeling at the altar)

and certainly you, who also have trouble keeping up with the discussion.

Lux

---

I am pretty sure benedictgal has kept up with the GIRM. Not only the GIRM --but other documents as well. You might want to try that some time.

Seems the one holding the title to passing misinformation --would be you.

I’m still waiting for something other than an unfounded claim. I did quote the posts.

Lux