Vatican: Receiving Eucharist kneeling will be norm at papal liturgies

[mlchance]

No, I’m starting to wonder if you’re against someone in a particular stance that you find offensive.

That’s funny coming from someone who mischaracterized receiving Communion in the hand as a “handshake”.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[MHalsey]

I really want to kneel for communion, but nobody else does and I don’t want to stick out more than I already do. I do genuflect and that already gets me harsh stares from people.

By the way I do not genuflect to bring attention to myself, I am generally an introvert and dislike drawing attention to myself. I do it because I think is a more fitting way to prepare to receive the Lord.

Just curious, but how do you know people stare at you harshly? Does someone else tell you? Or do you just “feel” it? Perhaps you just *think *you’re being stared at because you don’t like to be the center of attention. I’d be willing to bet there are fewer people staring at you than you think.

If, on the other hand, your genuflecting is disrupting the flow or uniformity of the Mass and communion, this might be the reason for the stares not the act of genuflecting. I think that is Lux’s point. We should strive for unity, especially in the way we celebrate the Mass.

Personally, I also genuflect but tend to do so in a way that does not disrupt the flow of those going to communion. As for anyone staring at me, I have no idea, and couldn’t care less if they did.

 

[Caveman]

That’s funny coming from someone who mischaracterized receiving Communion in the hand as a “handshake”.

– Mark L. Chance.

Mark,
Even though I’ve stated that I personally disagree with it, I’ve never stated that it’s invalid or “disruptive to the spiritual good”.

 

[Caveman]

Liturgy is not private. It is the public worship of the Church, and there are liturgical norms.

Be it 10,000 people, or a single priest, The Holy sacrifice of the Mass is primarily the unbloody Sacrifice of Christ. A “community gathering” a secondary, at best… not primary.

Yes, but it is the rubrics of the NO Mass. Do you still favor readings in Latin?

Personally, yes. But were you aware that during the TLM, both the Epistle and Gospel are both in Latin and the venacular? BTW, the recent motu proprio has stated that both can be in the vernacular only, that that makes your question a moot point.

If this is what the rubrics call for, and I am able.

And what exactly would make you INable?

This is not “an interpretation”, but a direct quote from the GIRM, which is the official Catholic instruction on the NO liturgy. I do my best to comply. If I attend a TLM, I would kneel, if I am able

Lux

Enough people have already posted exerpts out of the GIRM to make any response I redundant.

 

[Walking_Home]

You are twisting my words. I was quoting the GIRM, and attempting to show you how it applies in this instance.

The celebrant has options which a member of the congregation does not have. It is not a legitimate comparison to compare the pope’s actions with those of a member of the congregation.

I am speaking of the norms for an NO Mass. Obviously the TLM norms are different. I quoted the GIRM, which apply to a NO Mass. There are only a few instructions for the congregation. I choose to follow them. Others may choose to ignore them. This is their prerogative,

Lux

Quote=Lux et Tenebrae
**The pope is the “priest” **at a papal Mass. My observation pertains to a member of the congregation choosing to use a private personal preferance in community worship.

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Twisting your words --Those were your words above --were they not.

Where you are going wrong it seems —is in making the “community” the focus/object of the Mass . You must keep in mind --the Mass does not belong to the priest or to the “community”.

Now you say the celebrants has options which the members of the community do not have. Apparently you are not aware that the Pope via the CDWDS is the authority above —any priest, any bishop, any bishop’s conference —as to the authentic interpretation of the GIRM----and how and in what manner it is to be applied. The Church Herself upholds the right for members to kneel for Holy Communion.

The following is a response from the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments addressing the suppression of the members right to kneel.

209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:rovGz1h_X_AJ:www.adoremus.org/Notitiae-kneeling.html+kneeling+responses+from+the+congregation+for+divine+worship&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments (Codex Iuris Canonici, canon 213). In view of the law that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them” (canon 843 ¶ 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person’s unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.
In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and – if the complaint is verified – that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.

 

[mlchance]

Even though I’ve stated that I personally disagree with it, I’ve never stated that it’s invalid or “disruptive to the spiritual good”.

Fair enough. All you did was roundly insult the practice of receiving Communion in the hand, as well as those who receive in such a manner. Unless, of course, you meant this as a compliment:

…then shouldn’t we approch Him in awe and reverence on our knees, vice standing with a handshake?

When you start out a thread commenting about how those who do not receive while kneeling do not exhibit a level of “awe and reverence” greater than shaking hands, you’ve pretty much lost any high ground on which to stand and express moral outrage.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[franny33]

I belong to a Catholic parish in ILL. and still waiting for a Latin Mass to come by a Church in our area. When it does, I expect to kneel for Communion just as I did before the 1960’s. I want everything to be the same. Sincerely, FB

 

[Dee_Dee_King]

what??!! the spirit of vatican ii mislead us?? i don’t believe it!!

next they’ll tell us that gregorian chant is better than “raise you up on eagles wings” or praise and worship because to each his own. i mean, as long as our hearts are in the right place, liturgical tradition is meaningless.

we don’t need latin or kneeling or insense, we need more participation, more committies, more felt banners, more circle in the rounds,… etc.

we can’t let this pope bring us back to the dark ages. we need to keep the spirit of vatican II alive. ecumenism until we are indifferent. more assisi, more gigantic hosts, more inclutrualization, more hand holding!!!

 

[rlg94086]

what??!! the spirit of vatican ii mislead us?? i don’t believe it!!

next they’ll tell us that gregorian chant is better than “raise you up on eagles wings” or praise and worship because to each his own. i mean, as long as our hearts are in the right place, liturgical tradition is meaningless.

we don’t need latin or kneeling or insense, we need more participation, more committies, more felt banners, more circle in the rounds,… etc.

we can’t let this pope bring us back to the dark ages. we need to keep the spirit of vatican II alive. ecumenism until we are indifferent. more assisi, more gigantic hosts, more inclutrualization, more hand holding!!!

I disagree. At our parish, the numbers increased threefold after our pastor arrived and brought back more reverence (silence, traditional vestments, altar boys, kneeling, incense, Gregorian Chant, Latin, emphasis on Confession, etc.).

I’ve experience many different types of liturgy. I even trained as a cantor with Tom Conry and Jim Hansen (sp?), so I’ve sung “Eagle’s Wings” and a host of other modern liturgical songs. Some are better than others, but IMHO Gregorian Chant is far superior.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I belong to a Catholic parish in ILL. and still waiting for a Latin Mass to come by a Church in our area. When it does, I expect to kneel for Communion just as I did before the 1960’s. I want everything to be the same. Sincerely, FB

Diocese of Rockford, Diocese of Joliet, Archdiocese of Chicago, Diocese of Belleville and Diocese of Peoria ALL have the Extraordinary Form, complete with kneeling for reception of Holy Communion on the tongue.

I know for a fact the Diocese of Rockford offers 5 different parishes, two run by Institute of Christ the King. I also know that both the Diocese of Rockford and the Archdiocese had a Latin Mass in place LONG BEFORE last year. I know Bishop Braxton has EF Masses all over the Belleville diocese including DuQuoin, and Bishop Jenky has them in the Peoria area. Maybe you should contact one of the coordinators for EF in your area to assist you in getting to one of these Masses. They are usually listed on each diocese web site, or web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm#illinois.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

---

Twisting your words --Those were your words above --were they not.

Where you are going wrong it seems —is in making the “community” the focus/object of the Mass . You must keep in mind --the Mass does not belong to the priest or to the “community”.

Now you say the celebrants has options which the members of the community do not have. Apparently you are not aware that the Pope via the CDWDS is the authority above —any priest, any bishop, any bishop’s conference —as to the authentic interpretation of the GIRM----and how and in what manner it is to be applied. The Church Herself upholds the right for members to kneel for Holy Communion.

May I ask who is the priest celebrant at a papal Mass?

And as to your “letter”, I never said anyone should be denied communion, and again I did not say we should worship as a community, this is the GIRM (approved by everyone, and the highest documentation on the rubrics of the Mass.)

Lux

 

[benedictgal]

May I ask who is the priest celebrant at a papal Mass?

And as to your “letter”, I never said anyone should be denied communion, and again I did not say we should worship as a community, this is the GIRM (approved by everyone, and the highest documentation on the rubrics of the Mass.)

Lux

However, there are letters from the Congregation for Divine Worship indicating that kneeling to receive Holy Communion is indeed permissible. In fact, one cannot deny Holy Communion smply because the communicant chooses to kneel.

Furthermreo, Redemptionis Sacramentum indicates that:

[91.] In distributing Holy Communion it is to be remembered that “sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who seek them in a reasonable manner, are rightly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them”.177 Hence any baptized Catholic who is not prevented by law must be admitted to Holy Communion. Therefore, it is not licit to deny Holy Communion to any of Christ’s faithful solely on the grounds, for example, that the person wishes to receive the Eucharist kneeling or standing.

Now, regarding receiving Holy Communion in the hand, the same document goes on to note:

[92.] Although each of the faithful always has the right to receive Holy Communion on the tongue, at his choice,178 if any communicant should wish to receive the Sacrament in the hand, in areas where the Bishops’ Conference with the recognitio of the Apostolic See has given permission, the sacred host is to be administered to him or her. However, special care should be taken to ensure that the host is consumed by the communicant in the presence of the minister, so that no one goes away carrying the Eucharistic species in his hand. If there is a risk of profanation, then Holy Communion should not be given in the hand to the faithful.179

[93.] The Communion-plate for the Communion of the faithful should be retained, so as to avoid the danger of the sacred host or some fragment of it falling.180

Therefore, even then, it’s not a blanket permission because if the danger of profanation exists, then the default method for receiving Holy Communion is on the tongue.

 

[Walking_Home]

May I ask who is the priest celebrant at a papal Mass?

**And as to your “letter”, I never said anyone should be denied communion, **and again I did not say we should worship as a community, this is the GIRM (approved by everyone, and the highest documentation on the rubrics of the Mass.)

Lux

Quote=Lux et Tenebrae
The celebrant has options which a member of the congregation does not have. It is not a legitimate comparison to compare the pope’s actions with those of a member of the congregation.

I am speaking of the norms for an NO Mass. Obviously the TLM norms are different. I quoted the GIRM, which apply to a NO Mass. There are only a few instructions for the congregation. I choose to follow them. Others may choose to ignore them. This is their prerogative,

---

Who is the priest celebrant —the Pope — and he does not stop being the Pope when he offers Mass.

Nice try side stepping the issue. The discussion centered on a persons right to kneel for communion. Your statement as it stands is —the celebrants has the options --the members do not.
The letter proves you false.

Again – the authentic interpreter of the GIRM is the Pope via the CDWDS. The CDWDS clarified how the GIRM is to be interpreted and applied in the matter of kneeling for communion—that being the people have the right to kneel. You ignoring this very important point —is not going to change that people have the right.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

We can go round and round. The GIRM does state

1. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

OK, so we have a stalemate here. I personally understand the norms, and I kneel (if I can) at other times, rather than for Communion. Others cannot understand the norms, so be it.

As I said, you do what you choose, but I personally would not go against the norms of the Mass I attend. I would kneel (again, if i am able) at a Mass where this is the norm.

Lux

 

[Michael_Neal]

Just curious, but how do you know people stare at you harshly? Does someone else tell you? Or do you just “feel” it? Perhaps you just *think *you’re being stared at because you don’t like to be the center of attention. I’d be willing to bet there are fewer people staring at you than you think.

If, on the other hand, your genuflecting is disrupting the flow or uniformity of the Mass and communion, this might be the reason for the stares not the act of genuflecting. I think that is Lux’s point. We should strive for unity, especially in the way we celebrate the Mass.

Personally, I also genuflect but tend to do so in a way that does not disrupt the flow of those going to communion. As for anyone staring at me, I have no idea, and couldn’t care less if they did.

Of course I don’t know with absolute certainty but I am pretty good at reading people’s facial expressions.

I don’t disrupt the flow of the line at all, I genuflect smoothly as I am stepping forward so the person behind me does not have to stop short.

 

[Walking_Home]

We can go round and round. The GIRM does state

OK, so we have a stalemate here. I personally understand the norms, and I kneel (if I can) at other times, rather than for Communion. Others cannot understand the norms, so be it.

As I said, you do what you choose, but I personally would not go against the norms of the Mass I attend. I would kneel (again, if i am able) at a Mass where this is the norm.

Lux

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The only one going round and round is you. There is no stalemate.
As I said prior —ignoring the fact that the Pope via the CDWDS is the supreme authority to interpret and apply the GIRM — you are in are error. So go ahead spin yourself dizzy.

 

[MHalsey]

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The only one going round and round is you. There is no stalemate.
As I said prior —ignoring the fact that the Pope via the CDWDS is the supreme authority to interpret and apply the GIRM — you are in are error. So go ahead spin yourself dizzy.

So if the Pope is the supreme authority as you say, then why didn’t just come out and say that receiving on your knees IS the norm for everywhere?

It seems to me that the Pope was only declaring how to receive communion during Papal Masses. Therefore, although he is the supreme authority on church teaching, he is allowing, as is stated in the GIRM, that Priests can determine what the norm is. This, though, does not mean they have the right to deny communion to those who wish to receive while kneeling.

So, while the Pope does have the supreme authority, he did not exercise it in this case and only declared the norm for Papal Masses, not all Masses.

Your uncharitable comments not withstanding, Lux is right about this.

 

[Walking_Home]

**So if the Pope is the supreme authority as you say, then why didn’t just come out and say that receiving on your knees IS the norm for everywhere? **

It seems to me that the Pope was only declaring how to receive communion during Papal Masses. Therefore, although he is the supreme authority on church teaching, he is allowing, as is stated in the GIRM, that Priests can determine what the norm is. This, though, does not mean they have the right to deny communion to those who wish to receive while kneeling.

So, while the Pope does have the supreme authority, he did not exercise it in this case and only declared the norm for Papal Masses, not all Masses.

Your uncharitable comments not withstanding, Lux is right about this.

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Rome has been clarifying this for some time now. The faithful not only cannot be denied communion because they kneel —but they are **not to be accused of disobedience for doing so. **This has been the mind of the Church even before Pope Benedict XVI.

Read the following responses from Rome to the matter of communion kneeling.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling.htm

 

[Caveman]

Fair enough. All you did was roundly insult the practice of receiving Communion in the hand, as well as those who receive in such a manner. Unless, of course, you meant this as a compliment:

If kneeling before The Lord equates to awe and reverence, then how would you equate standing as equals? If you so desire to look upon my comments as insulting, that most certainly is your call.

When you start out a thread commenting about how those who do not receive while kneeling do not exhibit a level of “awe and reverence” greater than shaking hands, you’ve pretty much lost any high ground on which to stand and express moral outrage.

– Mark L. Chance.

According to who, Mark… you? I would say that being a proponent of the most submissive stance and posture to The Lord IS the highest ground one could take morally, theologically and spiritually. That is, of course, if one is under the assumption that God is worthy of our being subservient to.

 

[Holly3278]

Awesome! I wish all Catholic Churches did this!