Vatican: Receiving Eucharist kneeling will be norm at papal liturgies

[mlchance]

If kneeling before The Lord equates to awe and reverence, then how would you equate standing as equals?

Two assumptions that aren’t necessarily true: (1) kneeling “equates to awe and reverence” and (2) standing represents equality. One is perfectly capable of going through the motions with no thought of awe and reverence even when kneeling or when receiving on the tongue.

Your fundamental error is a sweeping generalization that presumes to judge the interior disposition of others. When I receive Communion, I do so consciously reminding myself about Who I receive and why, and the only conscience I judge during Mass is my own.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Caveman]

Two assumptions that aren’t necessarily true: (1) kneeling “equates to awe and reverence”

I’m just going off of the example of 2,000 years of Catholicism and the example set by Christ during The Agony in the Garden. If kneeling’s good enough for Jesus… well, I’m sure you kow where I’m going with that one.

and (2) standing represents equality. One is perfectly capable of going through the motions with no thought of awe and reverence even when kneeling or when receiving on the tongue.

…only if one is going through the motions. Please reference the past 5,000 years of the Judeo-Christian tradition. You will clearly see the example and difference between the submissive stance and the equal ground stance. And it’s a sight deeper than the flippant “just kneeling vice standing” argument that many so-called Progressives adhere to.

Your fundamental error is a sweeping generalization that presumes to judge the interior disposition of others.

One’s outward appearance is a direct reflection of one’s interior disposition towards The Almighty.

I’m afraid your fundamental error is being a proponent of a lackadasical attitude that has essentially fostered and promoted the notion that The Eucharist is really nothing to get all that excited about. But I shouldn’t be all that shocked, seeing that most practicing Catholics don’t even believe in The Real Presence.

When I receive Communion, I do so consciously reminding myself about Who I receive and why, and the only conscience I judge during Mass is my own.

Does your examination of your own conscience negate the any thoughts you may have to drop in reverence to Christ physically present in The Eucharist?

 

[LilyM]

If kneeling before The Lord equates to awe and reverence, then how would you equate standing as equals? If you so desire to look upon my comments as insulting, that most certainly is your call.

I beg to differ. Standing too equates to respect, and certainly doesn’t automatically imply equality. Think of a court full of people ‘rising’ for the entrance of the judge, or the prisoner and their lawyers rising to hear the verdict while the judge and everyone else remains seated. Is Christ not our judge?

Or the servant who while in the master’s presence must remain standing. Are we not Christ’s servants?

Think too of the fact that old-fashioned etiquette books mandated that a lady (being the social superior) always stayed seated, at least in the presence of a gentleman of equal or inferior social rank, rather than rising to greet them, a proceeding which indicated inferior rank.

 

[LilyM]

I beg to differ. Standing too equates to respect, and certainly doesn’t automatically imply equality. Think of a court full of people ‘rising’ for the entrance of the judge, or the prisoner and their lawyers rising to hear the verdict while the judge and everyone else remains seated. Is Christ not our judge?

Or the servant who while in the master’s presence must remain standing. Are we not Christ’s servants?

Think too of the fact that old-fashioned etiquette books mandated that a lady (being the social superior) always stayed seated, at least in the presence of a gentleman of equal or inferior social rank, rather than rising to greet them, a proceeding which indicated inferior rank.

 

[Caveman]

I beg to differ. Standing too equates to respect, and certainly doesn’t automatically imply equality. Think of a court full of people ‘rising’ for the entrance of the judge, or the prisoner and their lawyers rising to hear the verdict while the judge and everyone else remains seated. Is Christ not our judge?

Or the servant who while in the master’s presence must remain standing. Are we not Christ’s servants?

Think too of the fact that old-fashioned etiquette books mandated that a lady (being the social superior) always stayed seated, at least in the presence of a gentleman of equal or inferior social rank, rather than rising to greet them, a proceeding which indicated inferior rank.

Lilly,
You give first-rate examples. But unfortunantly, they are examples from the secular world. Like I had pointed out to another commenter, the tradition of a physically subservient posture is the more previlant one on the Catholic tradition.

I’ve already given the example of Christ in The Garden. Let’s not forget the visionary Saints through-out the centuries in regards not only Christ, but also His Blessed Mother. No one “stood” to greet either of them, did they? They dropped to their knees to greet them, and in the case of Christ, remained on their knees!

There’s a reason for that, Lilly. And I persoanlly think they’ve set a wonderful example for us all to emulate.

May God bless the Holy Father.

 

[bellaknock]

if we had an appointment to meet royality or anybody in authority would we not be preparing for months so that we would know how to ACT in their presence and our first instinct would be to “bow lower our eyes and greet with a handshake” well here is the lord of lords kings of kings coming into our house to sit at table with us to teach us how to love and enter into his kingdom should we not greet him with humilty and reverence its a yes for me and “humilty” taught

 

[MHalsey]

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Rome has been clarifying this for some time now. The faithful not only cannot be denied communion because they kneel —but they are **not to be accused of disobedience for doing so. **This has been the mind of the Church even before Pope Benedict XVI.

Read the following responses from Rome to the matter of communion kneeling.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/kneeling.htm

No one here has said anyone kneeling should be refused communion or that they should be accused.

There is a difference between what is the *norm *and what is allowed. You seem to thing that just because kneeling is allowed, then it is the norm, when in fact, it has only been declared the norm for Papal Masses.

 

[saylo]

Fair enough. All you did was roundly insult the practice of receiving Communion in the hand, as well as those who receive in such a manner. Unless, of course, you meant this as a compliment:

So, then, Communion in the hand is the same thing? Is that an “Outward Sign” of adoration?

When you start out a thread commenting about how those who do not receive while kneeling do not exhibit a level of “awe and reverence” greater than shaking hands, you’ve pretty much lost any high ground on which to stand and express moral outrage.

Kneeling before the Host evokes “outrage” by you? How can this be?

There will be a returning to kneeling and on the tongue; this will be a sign of the Church returning to its roots. The realization of the actual Body and Blood of the Savior is accented by that kind of reverence. The “casualness” and the abuses we have endured will disappear.

The White House band plays “Hail to the Chief” when a President approaches and he is just a mortal/flawed human being and CANNOT bring us eternal life.

 

[Walking_Home]

No one here has said anyone kneeling should be refused communion or that they should be accused.

There is a difference between what is the *norm *and what is allowed. You seem to thing that just because kneeling is allowed, then it is the norm, when in fact, it has only been declared the norm for Papal Masses.

---

When Rome allowed the bishops the poster of standing – it was not with the intent to abrogate/undermine the universal norm of kneeling and on the tongue. Kneeling and on the tongue was to remain and remains a valid norm.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0803381.htm

He said “it is necessary not to forget that the distribution of Communion in the hand, from a juridical standpoint, remains up to now an indult,” which is an exemption from a general requirement that is granted by the Vatican to the bishops’ conferences which have requested it. He said the pope’s adoption of the traditional practice of distributing Communion "aims to highlight the force of the valid norm for the whole church."

 

[benedictgal]

Two assumptions that aren’t necessarily true: (1) kneeling “equates to awe and reverence” and (2) standing represents equality. One is perfectly capable of going through the motions with no thought of awe and reverence even when kneeling or when receiving on the tongue.

Your fundamental error is a sweeping generalization that presumes to judge the interior disposition of others. When I receive Communion, I do so consciously reminding myself about Who I receive and why, and the only conscience I judge during Mass is my own.

– Mark L. Chance.

Mark, have you read Pope Benedict’s book, The Spirit of the Liturgy. I thnk that you will find that there is a shap difference of opinion between your position and the Holy Father’s.

This is what Pope Benedict notes:

If we look at history, we can see that the Greeks and Romans rejected kneeling. In view of the squabbling, partisan deities described in mythology, this attitude was thoroughly justified. It was only too obvious that these gods were not God, even if you were dependent on their capricious power and had to make sure that, whenever possible, you enjoyed their favor. And so they said that kneeling was unworthy of a free man, unsuitable for the culture of Greece, something the barbarians went in for. Plutarch and Theophrastus regarded kneeling as an expression of superstition.

Aristotle called it a barbaric form of behavior (cf. Rhetoric 1361 a 36). Saint Augustine agreed with him in a certain respect: the false gods were only the masks of demons, who subjected men to the worship of money and to self-seeking, thus making them “servile” and superstitious. He said that the humility of Christ and His love, which went as far as the Cross, have freed us from these powers. We now kneel before that humility. The kneeling of Christians is not a form of inculturation into existing customs. ***It is quite the opposite, an expression of Christian culture, which transforms the existing culture through a new and deeper knowledge and experience of God.

Kneeling does not come from any culture – it comes from the Bible and its knowledge of God.*** The central importance of kneeling in the Bible can be seen in a very concrete way. The word proskynein alone occurs fifty-nine times in the New Testament, twenty-four of which are in the Apocalypse, the book of the heavenly Liturgy, which is presented to the Church as the standard for her own Liturgy.

Furthermore, the Holy Father writes that:

The Christian Liturgy is a cosmic Liturgy precisely because it bends the knee before the crucified and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture - the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos.

There is much more that we might add. For example, there is the touching story told by Eusebius in his history of the Church as a tradition going back to Hegesippus in the second century. Apparently, Saint James, the “brother of the Lord”, the first bishop of Jerusalem and “head” of the Jewish Christian Church, had a kind of callous on his knees, because he was always on his knees worshipping God and begging forgiveness for his people (2, 23, 6). Again, there is a story that comes from the sayings of the Desert Fathers, according to which the devil was compelled by God to show himself to a certain Abba Apollo. He looked black and ugly, with frighteningly thin limbs, but most strikingly, he had no knees. The inability to kneel is seen as the very essence of the diabolical.

But I do not want to go into more detail. I should like to make just one more remark. The expression used by Saint Luke to describe the kneeling of Christians (theis ta gonata) is unknown in classical Greek. We are dealing here with a specifically Christian word. With that remark, our reflections turn full circle to where they began. It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture – insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

There is a deep theology to kneeling, moreso than to standing. Therefore, what Pope Benedict has done is to bring that understanding back into the forefront. If you carefully read the Spirit of the Liturgy and examine what is now transpiring, you will find that this book pretty much provides the blueprint for what is happening in the Church under the Benedictine reforms.

 

[MHalsey]

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When Rome allowed the bishops the poster of standing – it was not with the intent to abrogate/undermine the universal norm of kneeling and on the tongue. Kneeling and on the tongue was to remain and remains a valid norm.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0803381.htm

He said “it is necessary not to forget that the distribution of Communion in the hand, from a juridical standpoint, remains up to now an indult,” which is an exemption from a general requirement that is granted by the Vatican to the bishops’ conferences which have requested it. **He said the pope’s adoption of the traditional practice of distributing Communion “aims to highlight the force of the valid norm **for the whole church.”

Why didn’t you quote the next paragraph in the article:

However, the pope’s preference for the traditional practice is not meant to “take anything away from the other” permissible form of standing or receiving the Eucharist in the hand, he said.

What I make from all this is that the Pope is leading by example. He is not calling into question anyone’s reverence to the Eucharist when they receive while standing. I imagine (and hope) that many more bishops will follow the Pope’s lead and do the same.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote=Walking_Home
e said “it is necessary not to forget that the distribution of Communion in the hand, from a juridical standpoint, remains up to now an indult,” which is an exemption from a general requirement that is granted by the Vatican to the bishops’ conferences which have requested it. He said the pope’s adoption of the traditional practice of distributing Communion "aims to highlight the force of the valid norm for the whole church."

Why didn’t you quote the next paragraph in the article:

Quote:
However, the pope’s preference for the traditional practice is not meant to “take anything away from the other” permissible form of standing or receiving the Eucharist in the hand, he said.

What I make from all this is that the Pope is leading by example. He is not calling into question anyone’s reverence to the Eucharist when they receive while standing. I imagine (and hope) that many more bishops will follow the Pope’s lead and do the same.

Quote=Mhalsey
There is a difference between what is the norm and what is allowed. You seem to thing that just because kneeling is allowed, then it is the norm, when in fact, it has only been declared the norm for Papal Masses.​

The basis of my argument is not that communion standing is not permissible. What I was explaining —was in response to your statement that communion kneeling is only a norm for Papal Masses. This is not the case. When Rome allowed communion standing —it was not to be used to abrogate/undermine communion kneeling in the Church. Kneeling has always been and is a valid norm for the whole Church—not just for the Papal Mass. That is a point our Pope is making.

 

[Brendan]

We can go round and round. The GIRM does state

OK, so we have a stalemate here. I personally understand the norms, and I kneel (if I can) at other times, rather than for Communion. Others cannot understand the norms, so be it.

As I said, you do what you choose, but I personally would not go against the norms of the Mass I attend. I would kneel (again, if i am able) at a Mass where this is the norm.

Lux

FYI, the standing is what is called a “Particular Norm”. Kneeling is what is called a “Universal Norm”

A Particular Norm of standing has been approved for the US. But, Canoncally, a Particular Norm does not override a Universal Norm unless it is specifically approved to do so.

The Particular Norm of standing was not approved in that way ( which was the point of the question posed to Cardinal Arinze).

So it is normative in the NO Masses to either stand or kneel, depending on one’s personal preference.

 

[MHalsey]

The basis of my argument is not that communion standing is not permissible. What I was explaining —was in response to your statement that communion kneeling is only a norm for Papal Masses. This is not the case. When Rome allowed communion standing —it was not to be used to abrogate/undermine communion kneeling in the Church. Kneeling has always been and is a valid norm for the whole Church—not just for the Papal Mass. That is a point our Pope is making.

I like how Brendan explains it. And it makes sense.

FYI, the standing is what is called a “Particular Norm”. Kneeling is what is called a “Universal Norm”

A Particular Norm of standing has been approved for the US. But, Canoncally, a Particular Norm does not override a Universal Norm unless it is specifically approved to do so.

The Particular Norm of standing was not approved in that way ( which was the point of the question posed to Cardinal Arinze).

So it is normative in the NO Masses to either stand or kneel, depending on one’s personal preference.

Can we agree on this? From his explanation I gather that at a Papal Mass, you *must *kneel to receive communion from the Pope as this is the “Universal Norm”, while at a Mass that observes the “particular norm” you can, if you wish, receive kneeling.

Based on previous posts, it is up to the Bishop to decide what the norm should be for his diocese, followed by a priest deciding. I gather that if a bishop decides that the universal norm will be practiced in his diocese, it cannot be overridden by a priest wanting to use the particular norm. However, a priest can choose to practice the universal norm in his parish even if the bishop decides the particular norm will be the practice in the diocese.

Is this correct? Or am I missing something? I don’t want an argument, I just want to know.

 

[Walking_Home]

I like how Brendan explains it. And it makes sense.

Can we agree on this? From his explanation I gather that at a Papal Mass, you *must *kneel to receive communion from the Pope as this is the “Universal Norm”, while at a Mass that observes the “particular norm” you can, if you wish, receive kneeling.

Based on previous posts, it is up to the Bishop to decide what the norm should be for his diocese, followed by a priest deciding. I gather that if a bishop decides that the universal norm will be practiced in his diocese, it cannot be overridden by a priest wanting to use the particular norm. However, a priest can choose to practice the universal norm in his parish even if the bishop decides the particular norm will be the practice in the diocese.

Is this correct? Or am I missing something? I don’t want an argument, I just want to know.

---

A bishop can allow or Not – the particular norm for his diocese. A bishop who has allowed the particular norm–can have parishes in his diocese where the universal norm of communion kneeling on the tongue is the practice. What neither bishop and/or priest have is the authority to abrogate/suppress the universal norm of kneeling and/or the tongue.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I really don’t know about the difference between a universal and a particular norm, but I really can’t see why anyone would think that kneeling is more pleasing to the Lord, than worshipping in community as the Pastor wishes. Just because you have the right to do something, it is not necesserily the best choice, or the most pleasing to the Lord. Sounds pretty “me” centered to me.

Personaly, if I couldn’t attend where my preference was the norm, I would do as the Pastor wishes, unless it was sometning actually wrong. Obviously others here disagree, and some are very rude in doing so.

Peace,

Lux

 

[Digitonomy]

Furthermore, the Holy Father writes that:

The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core

These are rather strong words. Does the Holy Father mean to suggest that Eastern liturgies are “sick at the core,” or am I overlooking some context to his remarks?

 

[Walking_Home]

I really don’t know about the difference between a universal and a particular norm, but I really can’t see why anyone would think that kneeling is more pleasing to the Lord, than worshipping in community as the Pastor wishes. Just because you have the right to do something, it is not necesserily the best choice, or the most pleasing to the Lord. Sounds pretty “me” centered to me.

Personaly, if I couldn’t attend where my preference was the norm, I would do as the Pastor wishes, unless it was sometning actually wrong. Obviously others here disagree, and some are very rude in doing so.

Peace,

Lux

The true community is the Church. Each parish community forms part of the Church community. This is the community you are I belong to —the Church. You in your parish, me in mine, others in theirs – together worship united in prayer as a community —not separate from one another --following the mind of the Church. When a bishop and/or priest over-rides the mind of the Church (suppresses kneeling) —he in essence is segregating his community from the Church community.

True worship in community – is worship in union with the mind of the Church.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Talk about private interpretation! That is one of the biggest stretches I haave ever seen. Have you ever heard of inculturalization? or different Bishops conferences? The Bishop is the High Priest of his diocese (Pope Benedict reaffirmed this in the letter about the TLM)

And the instruction is for the Mass you are attending. How on earth could you even have the 2 forms with your illogical reasoning?

Lux

 

[saylo]

Didn’t Jesus, at Gethsemane KNEEL while praying to the Father? Shouldn’t we kneel as we are about to receive the Body of Christ to dwell within us for that short while?