Vatican refuses to share sex abuse investigations with U.N. panel

[Lochias]

Careful now. That’s a description that’s eerily similar to those given of the Church by non-Catholics.

People say a lot of things. They often say them without logic, like non-Catholics do when talking about that which they know absolutely squat about. I will not tiptoe around the willfully ignorant.

Regardless of personal opinions of the UN, the Vatican seems to disagree at least in large part.

To a point; I’d say they’re just making the best of a bad situation. If the UN vanished overnight, the world would still be just fine, however.

 

[georget]

Again, the Church willingly participates with the UN and signed the Convention at the heart of this issue. Clearly it doesn’t unilaterally view the UN as “corrupt.”

The UN is a corrupt organization, it isn’t fit to sit in judgment of any country, to think of Saudi Arabia, Iran, South Korea, China, Syria etc. etc. judging the Vatican over human rights, or anything else is absurd in the extreme. The UN needs to be reformed or done away with, the Vatican also needs to be reformed, I trust the Pope to do the job, not the UN.

 

[Lochias]

The UN is a corrupt organization, it isn’t fit to sit in judgment of any country, to think of Saudi Arabia, Iran, South Korea, China, Syria etc. etc. judging the Vatican over human rights, or anything else is absurd in the extreme. The UN needs to be reformed or done away with, the Vatican also needs to be reformed, I trust the Pope to do the job, not the UN.

Amen and well-said.

 

[Corki]

I’m not sure why this would need to be stated again but the Holy See signed off on this sort of inquiry when it signed the Convention. Other countries and institutions are beholden to the requirements set forth in the Convention, of which they were aware when they agreed to it, so I’ve no clue why the Vatican would be reticent to comply.

Show me where in the treaty the Vatican signed did it say it would provide reports of activities conducted in other nation states that may or may not have also signed the treaty. I looked and I can’t find any such provision.

There is nothing wrong with the Vatican saying that it will cooperate to the extent of the treaty but not to go beyond that scope.

 

[gracepoole]

Show me where in the treaty the Vatican signed did it say it would provide reports of activities conducted in other nation states that may or may not have also signed the treaty. I looked and I can’t find any such provision.

There is nothing wrong with the Vatican saying that it will cooperate to the extent of the treaty but not to go beyond that scope.

The problem is that the Vatican has failed to cooperate to the extent of the treaty, as well.

The UN committee requires governments of signatory countries of the convention and its two optional protocols on child trafficking and on armed conflict to submit a comprehensive review of how convention regulations are being implemented, as well as progress reports every five years.

The Vatican has been party to the 1989 convention since 1990, but had been lagging behind in turning in its mandatory reports.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/07/12/un-asks-vatican-to-account-for-every-abuse-allegation-it-has-received/

For the record, there are only three UN member states that have not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child: the U.S., Somalia, and South Sudan (which only became a nation in 2011).

 

[gracepoole]

If the UN vanished overnight, the world would still be just fine, however.

I trust it goes without saying that many in developing countries couldn’t disagree more.

 

[CarolNoel]

I don’t blame the Vatican, for a variety of reasons, but the U.N. is one of the last groups I would share much of anything.

I agree.

 

[KrazyKat]

In other words, throw the perverts to the dogs because they are beyond the possibility of redemption?

Do you think the United Nations is at all concerned with redemption, rehabilitation or respect for the human dignity of these sinners?

Whatever happened to hate the sin but love the sinner?

Or do you think that position only applies to sinners we are comfortable defending like homosexuals, adulterers, thieves and murderers, but rapists, child abusers and pedophiles should not expect sanctuary?

Jesus came to heal the mildly afflicted but not severe cases, which only the UN can properly dispense with.

For what reason is the UN requesting the information in the first place? What does it hope to accomplish besides a public spectacle? Is the UN more trustworthy than the Church to provide compassion where compassion is needed?

Why does the Church need to pass inspection by the UN? Do you have more faith in the UN than you do the Church to do what is right?

Do you think the UN should have access to the national “secrets” of any country, for example, all the privileged documents that are classified under “National Security” by the US government?

If we all have a “right to know,” why does that right not apply to all of the secrets harbored by your neighbors, the companies doing business downtown, governments at every level, etc. etc. What about every thought that goes through your own head? Does everyone have a right to access those?

Why is there any kind of inherent right for anyone to know these things?

Perhaps from a degenerative lack of trust?

For my part, I refuse to want to know. My sole responsibility is to BE trustworthy and let God take care of the rest. I see no reason to pretend to play God and demand everyone around me be held accountable to me or worthy of my trust, I gave up that pretense long ago. I trust that God takes care of “God stuff” because I am fully encumbered trying to act in accord with my own responsibilities. Can I trust myself, is sufficiently challenging for my puny little brain to deal with. When I’ve perfected my own trustworthiness, I might think past that, but for now I know where my priorities are - removing the log in my own eye./QUOTE

Gosh, did I say throw anyone to the dogs?

In other words: Protect the young from priests who perform perverted acts. Is this too much to expect?

 

[CarolNoel]

The UN is a corrupt organization, it isn’t fit to sit in judgment of any country, to think of Saudi Arabia, Iran, South Korea, China, Syria etc. etc. judging the Vatican over human rights, or anything else is absurd in the extreme. The UN needs to be reformed or done away with, the Vatican also needs to be reformed, I trust the Pope to do the job, not the UN.

Yes. The UN is not worth much and should be done away with.

 

[Lochias]

I trust it goes without saying that many in developing countries couldn’t disagree more.

I trust that the method of that “development” is what’s being disputed.

The UN needs to be disbanded.

 

[gracepoole]

I trust that the method of that “development” is what’s being disputed.

The UN needs to be disbanded.

First, I’ve no disagreement that there are those in first-world countries who dispute the method of development in third-world countries. Of course, the hundreds in South Sudan with whom I’ve spoken think these folks are more than a bit misguided.

Second, this isn’t an argument about whether the UN should disband. If people are insistent on this point, perhaps they should pen a letter to Francis asking why the Vatican is in partnerships with such a corrupt, useless organization.

 

[Corki]

The problem is that the Vatican has failed to cooperate to the extent of the treaty, as well.

catholicherald.co.uk/news/2013/07/12/un-asks-vatican-to-account-for-every-abuse-allegation-it-has-received/

For the record, there are only three UN member states that have not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child: the U.S., Somalia, and South Sudan (which only became a nation in 2011).

Could that be because the questions are not appropriate for a nation state such as the Holy See? The question list that was posted earlier in this thread isn’t about the Vatican State at all. It is about the Church world-wide. That is beyond the scope of the Holy See as a signor to this treaty.

This is the title of the article you linked “UN asks Vatican to account for every abuse allegation it has received”

The Vatican receives allegation from all over the world. That is way beyond the scope of the Holy See as a nation state.

The first paragraph reads (bolding mine):

A United Nations committee concerned with children’s rights is requesting that the Vatican provide complete details about every accusation it has ever received of the sexual abuse of minors by clergy.

There is no way the UN can claim jurisdiction for compliance with the treaty for activities that mostly occurred well before the treaty was ratified let alone hold the Holy See responsible for reporting and/or monitoring those activities beyond it’s borders.

 

[Lochias]

First, I’ve no disagreement that there are those in first-world countries who dispute the method of development in third-world countries. Of course, the hundreds in South Sudan with whom I’ve spoken think these folks are more than a bit misguided.

So as long as there’s a little bit of incidental good, the overwhelming bad is tolerated? Don’t even think so.

Second, this isn’t an argument about whether the UN should disband. If people are insistent on this point, perhaps they should pen a letter to Francis asking why the Vatican is in partnerships with such a corrupt, useless organization.

Again, making the best of a bad situation. Very bad, indeed.

 

[seekerz]

I trust it goes without saying that many in developing countries couldn’t disagree more.

I agree with you there. Somehow the UN has become a favorite football for those who do not depend on its expertise and resources to find refuge from war, get food in times of famine, access basic health services, see justice done to war criminals and oversee elections so that most contemporary leaders don’t get to be “president for life”. And because of the UN, most leaders do not rob their citizens of rights, property and life with zero accountability even if that accountability sometimes equals a slap on the wrist…Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, for most of the developing world the UN serves these vital functions.

 

[gracepoole]

Could that be because the questions are not appropriate for a nation state such as the Holy See? The question list that was posted earlier in this thread isn’t about the Vatican State at all. It is about the Church world-wide. That is beyond the scope of the Holy See as a signor to this treaty.

This is the title of the article you linked “UN asks Vatican to account for every abuse allegation it has received”

The Vatican receives allegation from all over the world. That is way beyond the scope of the Holy See as a nation state.

The first paragraph reads (bolding mine):

There is no way the UN can claim jurisdiction for compliance with the treaty for activities that mostly occurred well before the treaty was ratified let alone hold the Holy See responsible for reporting and/or monitoring those activities beyond it’s borders.

Hypothetically, if this is the case, why, oh why did the Vatican agree to the Convention? It seems beyond implausible that it didn’t foresee this series of challenges.

 

[gracepoole]

I agree with you there. Somehow the UN has become a favorite football for those who do not depend on its expertise and resources to find refuge from war, get food in times of famine, access basic health services, see justice done to war criminals and oversee elections so that most contemporary leaders don’t get to be “president for life”. And because of the UN, most leaders do not rob their citizens of rights, property and life with zero accountability even if that accountability sometimes equals a slap on the wrist…Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, for most of the developing world the UN serves these vital functions.

Agreed.

 

[Lochias]

Hypothetically, if this is the case, why, oh why did the Vatican agree to the Convention? It seems beyond implausible that it didn’t foresee this series of challenges.

Maybe the Vatican assumed the U.N. would be, say, reasonable in its dealings?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

I agree with you there. Somehow the UN has become a favorite football for those who do not depend on its expertise and resources to find refuge from war, get food in times of famine, access basic health services, see justice done to war criminals and oversee elections so that most contemporary leaders don’t get to be “president for life”. And because of the UN, most leaders do not rob their citizens of rights, property and life with zero accountability even if that accountability sometimes equals a slap on the wrist…Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, for most of the developing world the UN serves these vital functions.

You are assuming its the UN that helps those in need. Whenever you hear of those horrible disasters and listen to the news, its particular charities and countries that go to their end…I’m not saying the UN should be disbanded necessarily I don’t know enough about it only that those countries and charities would still help! And of course you have all the religions that send aid too

 

[seekerz]

You are assuming its the UN that helps those in need. Whenever you hear of those horrible disasters and listen to the news, its particular charities and countries that go to their end…I’m not saying the UN should be disbanded necessarily I don’t know enough about it only that those countries and charities would still help! And of course you have all the religions that send aid too

The UN has a major role in coordinating international disaster response. Ask any major international charity. Yes, there are many countries and charities which respond. No, there aren’t many which have near the experience and expertise of the UN.

 

[gracepoole]

Maybe the Vatican assumed the U.N. would be, say, reasonable in its dealings?

I suppose it depends on one’s definition of reasonable.

You are assuming its the UN that helps those in need. Whenever you hear of those horrible disasters and listen to the news, its particular charities and countries that go to their end…I’m not saying the UN should be disbanded necessarily I don’t know enough about it only that those countries and charities would still help! And of course you have all the religions that send aid too

This is factually incorrect. As Seekerz noted, individual charities are certainly involved – but discounting the positive and very real impact of the UN (in terms of natural disasters, yes, but in many, many other issues, as well) is factually problematic.