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10gr8kids
Guest
I did not retread the article you linked to about abortion, but I have read it in the past.
If memory serves me right and I read it correctly, i don’t think you are correct in thinking abortion is not an intrinsic evil. That is assuming when we say ‘abortion’ we are referring to the intentional killing of a baby in the womb. Anytime a woman loses a child it is medically referred to as an abortion, but when it is not intentional we usually refer to that as a miscarriage.
A woman may receive medical care that in all likelihood will cause the child to die, but that is not the intentional killing of a child. It is against Catholic teaching to intentionally and directly kill a baby in the womb. Even in the case of an ecoptic pregnancy a child is not directly killed, but rather the woman’s tube is removed.
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godisgood77
Guest
From the top of the USCCB page you reference. ‘The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law” (No. 2271).’
I don’t think our two points are conflicting… this page and the Church’s position is referencing procured abortion… birth control in other words. The double effect scenario I referenced is not in reference to abortion as birth control, but instead to terminating a pregnancy when trying to save a mothers life as the first intention.
I fully understand that this is tiny sliver compared to the common usage, but when using absolute terms like intrinsic evils, we should be precise.
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godisgood77
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10gr8kids
Guest
Even to save a mother’s life, we can not directly kill a child. I think you misunderstand double effect.
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ProdigalSun
Guest
QUOTE=godisgood77;14821893]Have you heard of or read the encyclical Laudato Si? This document lays out the Church’s position on human ecology and the environment. An encyclical is second only to apostolic constitutions in terms of formal authority… so to a Catholic, this one would be pretty important. Yes I have heard of it 
I agree with the fact that we must look after our planet to the best of our ability and help our fellow man in everything. These are Moral arguments That bear much weight on me and should on any Moral citizen. I however disagree with the premise that CC is strictly and man made problem that can be fixed by disrupting our economy and controlling our population. These are scientific and political issues that the church allows us a great deal of leniency and contemplation. Please show me a line in LS that clearly indicates that All the Catholic faithful must believe in Climate change and that the only way to combat it is by doing this: 1, 2., 3.
Relative to capitol punishment, you are correct that Church allows this a possibility in very, very specific circumstances. You may also know that Pope Saint John Paul II said that the conditions under which capitol punishment is an option are virtually non-existent. so simply saying that the Church allows it is misleading (at best) So that is a yes the church allows for this to happen. and in fact JPII also says that whether or not it does happen can be left up to the nation.
Again you’re right that the Church teaches that a nation has the right to protect itself and its citizens, but it must do so in accord with Catholic teaching and christian moral norms. Not to mention that it can control its own borders to allow for legal controlled imimigration. Where does anything the US immigration is doing is against christian Morals.
On your abortion question… No, abortion is not an intrinsic evil with is always and everywhere wrong… see this article for a pretty clear explanation of abortion and double effect. catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/abortion-and-double-effect
Of course Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Murder is always wrong. Abortion is the direct killing of an Innocent Human Being. This is always wrong and intrinsically evil if you don’t understand the difference between abortion and the unfortunate death of a fetus because of Double affect then you better go back to your philosphy 101.
Nice try though, it amazes me that instead of admitting that this abortion/murder is indeed an intrinsic evil you would rather dress it up in a fur coat and lip stick so you can be win an argument at the expense of truth.
On your last question, yes the Church allows for varying opinions on topics on politics and open scientific questions. Great so I guess I’m correct then.
Thank You!
Sorry about my last post this is how it should have read!
I agree with the fact that we must look after our planet to the best of our ability and help our fellow man in everything. These are Moral arguments That bear much weight on me and should on any Moral citizen. I however disagree with the premise that CC is strictly and man made problem that can be fixed by disrupting our economy and controlling our population. These are scientific and political issues that the church allows us a great deal of leniency and contemplation. Please show me a line in LS that clearly indicates that All the Catholic faithful must believe in Climate change and that the only way to combat it is by doing this: 1, 2., 3.Relative to capitol punishment, you are correct that Church allows this a possibility in very, very specific circumstances. You may also know that Pope Saint John Paul II said that the conditions under which capitol punishment is an option are virtually non-existent. so simply saying that the Church allows it is misleading (at best) So that is a yes the church allows for this to happen. and in fact JPII also says that whether or not it does happen can be left up to the nation.
Again you’re right that the Church teaches that a nation has the right to protect itself and its citizens, but it must do so in accord with Catholic teaching and christian moral norms. Not to mention that it can control its own borders to allow for legal controlled imimigration. Where does anything the US immigration is doing is against christian Morals.
On your abortion question… No, abortion is not an intrinsic evil with is always and everywhere wrong… see this article for a pretty clear explanation of abortion and double effect. catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/abortion-and-double-effect
Of course Abortion is an intrinsic evil. Murder is always wrong. Abortion is the direct killing of an Innocent Human Being. This is always wrong and intrinsically evil if you don’t understand the difference between abortion and the unfortunate death of a fetus because of Double affect then you better go back to your philosphy 101.
Nice try though, it amazes me that instead of admitting that this abortion/murder is indeed an intrinsic evil you would rather dress it up in a fur coat and lip stick so you can be win an argument at the expense of truth.
On your last question, yes the Church allows for varying opinions on topics on politics and open scientific questions. Great so I guess I’m correct then.
Thank You!
Sorry about my last post this is how it should have read!
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ProdigalSun
Guest
You are correct is saying that not talking about other Catholic voters with regards to who they voted for makes these authors in correct. My point was that they are being hypocritical on these issues and makes their credibility suspect. I believe they are wrong on a completely different level as opposed to biased “OPINION”.
Sorry not your opinion but the Opinion of the authors about Hard line Catholics
This was a confusing post even for me!.
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Operations66
Guest
You would have preferred Hillary, the warmonger and lover of taxpayer-funded baby killing?
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Ridgerunner
Guest
A man who finds himself sliding into an abyss is enthusiastically grateful for a tree root he happens to grasp on the way down. And he remains so, holds on, and hopes the root will not come off in his hand.
It’s no great mystery why many still support Trump. If I had to guess, I would guess if the election were held again today, the result would be the same, despite all the efforts of the left to persuade people to let go of that tree root. Hard to convince people to do that.
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Seamus_L
Guest
For many of us, we like the President for the very reasons others detest him. And the same goes for Putin, Orban, the Polish government, etc.
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GEddie
Guest
I thought the Church Militant was all Catholics currently humanly alive?
Or is there an organization having that formal name?
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godisgood77
Guest
Fair enough… I get your point, although, tree root analogy doesn’t work for me with Trump. I’d go with the man who built his house on sand.
The good news that the majority of people do not support him - in this country and around the world. You’re right that the left is going bananas daily about the many, many controversies surrounding Mr. Trump. What’s different is that many who supported him are voluntarily letting go of the ‘root’. We’re seeing it now with the Republican congress taking steps to box him in… so bi-partisan resistance is happening… That may be the silver lining actually - so bad a president that a divided country united to stop him. Praise God.
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godisgood77
Guest
and what are some of those reasons?
I think the reason most detest him as a leader is because of the lying.
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Seamus_L
Guest
I think the two biggest issues President Trump is hated for is his position on illegal aliens and refugees from certain Muslim majority countries. that’s what brings the protesters out.
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commenter
Guest
The media has created a new ecclesiastic category, “Vatican-vetted” publication. This goes along with the new Church rank they have created, “Friend of the Pope” which I think is ranked somewhere between bishop and cardinal. There are 147 “Friends of the Pope” at last count, each of whom has left their employment to work full time conducting press interviews.
This is the media trying to manipulate the Church. I suppose one might argue that the Remnant is a Vatican-vetted publication, seeing as how priests sometimes write for it, and they are under a bishop, who is under a pope.
The reality is that this publication contains articles that may or may not reflect the views of the Pope. The Pope is perfectly capable of communicating directly, rather than by inference and innuendo, letting people guess what views are his or papal-compatible. This is fake news.
(While I was writing this post, the number of officially quotable Friends of the Pope increased to 149).
This is the media trying to manipulate the Church. I suppose one might argue that the Remnant is a Vatican-vetted publication, seeing as how priests sometimes write for it, and they are under a bishop, who is under a pope.
The reality is that this publication contains articles that may or may not reflect the views of the Pope. The Pope is perfectly capable of communicating directly, rather than by inference and innuendo, letting people guess what views are his or papal-compatible. This is fake news.
(While I was writing this post, the number of officially quotable Friends of the Pope increased to 149).
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GEddie
Guest
Well, the world does not vote in our elections.
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JHC
Guest
So I can believe it is ok to heavily vet immigrants, have market-based healthcare, and understand the government is incapable of solving climate change.
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10gr8kids
Guest
Would you rather see a president who opposeses any abortion restrictions? Trump may not be the best, but we came close to much worse! Maybe if more people had voted for a better Republican nominee instead of for Hilary or Bernie, we would not be in this shape. We can’t just blame those who nominated Trump.
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godisgood77
Guest
Sure, you believe what you want to believe.
The Church’s teaching does have some standards that I try to be mindful of… the USCCB has been pretty good about expressing the Church’s view on some of the recent major proposals… like denouncing the proposed healthcare bill and denouncing the immigration rhetoric and recommended actions. The Pope has been pretty explicit about the impact of the throwaway culture on the poor and the environment and laying out our duties as individuals to respect the planet.
I try to form my opinions according to the Church’s guidance… you?
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godisgood77
Guest
If that is all you have an issue with in my note, then I’m good.
The world’s opinion of Trump is of minor importance. We do live in a globally connect world these days and as the largest consumer in the world, I’m sure you would agree that, the US bears a special responsibility for how we conduct ourselves
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