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Ridgerunner
Guest
In numbers perhaps, but not in the electoral count.
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10gr8kids
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Here is a good article by a bishop to help you understand why there was not a proportionate reason to vote for Hilary.Well I don’t live in the US, so my choice is neither. However, pope Benedict XVI, when he was still Card. Ratzinger and prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the faith, said it was morally permissible to vote for a pro-abortion candidate for proportionate reasons. What is not morally permissible is to vote for a candidate because (s)he is pro-abortion.
It would thus have been morally permissible to vote for Hillary Clinton if you felt she was the better candidate to lead the country. That would count as remote material cooperation with evil. Voting for her because she is pro-abortion, would be direct moral cooperation with evil and thus gravely sinful.
If you google it, you’ll find his letter to this effect.
catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=6159
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Jig_Saw
Guest
Actually, I think the Vatican is beginning to recognize a problem in American Catholicism and trying to figure out how to deal with it.Unlike the National Catholic Reporter, Church Militant removed the name “Catholic” from its title when asked to do so by its bishop. NCR simply ignored the bishop, actually two of them.
It’s strange to think that a fringe organization such as Church Militant inspired an article in a Vatican magazine.
First, there is the tying together of religion and politics where conservative Catholics are often confusing their religion with their party affiliation.
Second, there is a growing amount of American “Catholic” organizations that are acting very much like evangelists. All brim and firestone, can’t trust any bishop, willing to attack the Pope, confusing politics and religion and, FINALLY, nearly constant fundraising. I think Church Militant may have been mentioned because they are the most prominent example, but then there is LifeSiteNews, which may be worse. And, even though it won’t get mentioned, I think EWTN and Priests for Life are examples of things going amok as well.
Personally, I think this problem has been around for a few decades now, but becoming much more obvious in the last few years.
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10gr8kids
Guest
Basically, anyone who doesn’t want to march in lockstep with secular values.Actually, I think the Vatican is beginning to recognize a problem in American Catholicism and trying to figure out how to deal with it.
First, there is the tying together of religion and politics where conservative Catholics are often confusing their religion with their party affiliation.
Second, there is a growing amount of American “Catholic” organizations that are acting very much like evangelists. All brim and firestone, can’t trust any bishop, willing to attack the Pope, confusing politics and religion and, FINALLY, nearly constant fundraising. I think Church Militant may have been mentioned because they are the most prominent example, but then there is LifeSiteNews, which may be worse. And, even though it won’t get mentioned, I think EWTN and Priests for Life are examples of things going amok as well.
Personally, I think this problem has been around for a few decades now, but becoming much more obvious in the last few years.
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twf
Guest
Not fair. There is a whole spectrum of approaches here. One can be faithful to the Magisterium and live out the Gospel in charity without taking on the approach and worldview of American fundamentalist evangelists.Basically, anyone who doesn’t want to march in lockstep with secular values.
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JimG
Guest
And yet, the Civilita Catolica article mixes religion and politics, and expects that the correct mixture would be the European model, which is primarily a leftist one. One cannot deny that even within the Vatican there are various factions.Actually, I think the Vatican is beginning to recognize a problem in American Catholicism and trying to figure out how to deal with it.
First, there is the tying together of religion and politics where conservative Catholics are often confusing their religion with their party affiliation.
Second, there is a growing amount of American “Catholic” organizations that are acting very much like evangelists. All brim and firestone, can’t trust any bishop, willing to attack the Pope, confusing politics and religion and, FINALLY, nearly constant fundraising. I think Church Militant may have been mentioned because they are the most prominent example, but then there is LifeSiteNews, which may be worse. And, even though it won’t get mentioned, I think EWTN and Priests for Life are examples of things going amok as well.
Personally, I think this problem has been around for a few decades now, but becoming much more obvious in the last few years.
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10gr8kids
Guest
EWTN?Not fair. There is a whole spectrum of approaches here. One can be faithful to the Magisterium and live out the Gospel in charity without taking on the approach and worldview of American fundamentalist evangelists.
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Jig_Saw
Guest
I’m not really a mixing of religion and politics in the article that you are. I see it more as a warning to not follow a false Gospel often propagated by the worst elements of the Fundamentalist movement and then apply it to politics.And yet, the Civilita Catolica article mixes religion and politics, and expects that the correct mixture would be the European model, which is primarily a leftist one. One cannot deny that even within the Vatican there are various factions.
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Jig_Saw
Guest
Eh…I don’t think so. They made a bunch of severely flawed priests into media superstars to the detriment of the Faith.EWTN?
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Jig_Saw
Guest
I’ve noticed a tendency among those who take the view advocated by those “Catholic” sites that there are somehow the true Catholics and are being persecuted for their beliefs while attacking the Bishops and Pope.Basically, anyone who doesn’t want to march in lockstep with secular values.
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10gr8kids
Guest
So who are the unflawed you’d recommend?Eh…I don’t think so. They made a bunch of severely flawed priests into media superstars to the detriment of the Faith.
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Jig_Saw
Guest
There is no one that is unflawed. I prefer listening to my priests and bishop.So who are the unflawed you’d recommend?
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10gr8kids
Guest
Well, I don’t know who your priest and bishop are, so I don’t know what they have to say, but my priest says a lot of the same things I hear on EWTN. TBH, I don’t hear EWTN often as I don’t pay for TV or radio, but what I have heard was not contrary to anything my priest teaches. What is it that EWTN teaches that you find so…eh?There is no one that is unflawed. I prefer listening to my priests and bishop.
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Jig_Saw
Guest
They make rockstar priests that revel in their superstardom and lose touch with their mission leaving the priesthood.Well, I don’t know who your priest and bishop are, so I don’t know what they have to say, but my priest says a lot of the same things I hear on EWTN. TBH, I don’t hear EWTN often as I don’t pay for TV or radio, but what I have heard was not contrary to anything my priest teaches. What is it that EWTN teaches that you find so…eh?
They have a bad habit of leaning Republican on political issues even giving a forum for a pro-torture advocate in their news programs.
EWTN-UK has gone out of its way to attack the Vatican. I don’t know if they are related to the EWTN in the US.
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twf
Guest
I haven’t watched much EWTN content of late, but I was a fan in the past.EWTN?
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twf
Guest
Yes, some conservative American Catholics have been unduly influenced by an Evangelical Protestant approach to faith. They and they alone understand the Magisterium as the pope and bishops sound too “Democrat” to their ears on certain topics. There’s also a strain of anti-intellectualism that has no place in Catholicism - issues like evolution and climate change come to mind. In general, a very “us” vs “them” approach to evangelism.I’ve noticed a tendency among those who take the view advocated by those “Catholic” sites that there are somehow the true Catholics and are being persecuted for their beliefs while attacking the Bishops and Pope.
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OraLabora
Guest
I agree completely.Yes, some conservative American Catholics have been unduly influenced by an Evangelical Protestant approach to faith. They and they alone understand the Magisterium as the pope and bishops sound too “Democrat” to their ears on certain topics. There’s also a strain of anti-intellectualism that has no place in Catholicism - issues like evolution and climate change come to mind. In general, a very “us” vs “them” approach to evangelism.
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JimG
Guest
By anti-intellectualism, are you referring to people like Archbishop Charles Chaput, Bishop Conley, Robert George, Robert Royal, George Weigel, Fr. Raymond de Souza, or institutions like Franciscan University of Steubenville, Belmont Abbey College, Mount St. Mary’s University, Benedictine College? Do persons and institutions get more points for intellectualism by being somewhat less orthodox in their Catholicism than others?Yes, some conservative American Catholics have been unduly influenced by an Evangelical Protestant approach to faith. They and they alone understand the Magisterium as the pope and bishops sound too “Democrat” to their ears on certain topics. There’s also a strain of anti-intellectualism that has no place in Catholicism - issues like evolution and climate change come to mind. In general, a very “us” vs “them” approach to evangelism.
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OraLabora
Guest
Straw man. He wasn’t referring to Catholic orthodoxy, in fact he specifically said that it was possible to be faithful to the Magisterium without taking on an American conservative world view, and by “anti-intellectualism” he was referring to rejection of scientific principles, not of the doctrinal teaching of the Church.By anti-intellectualism, are you referring to people like Archbishop Charles Chaput, Bishop Conley, Robert George, Robert Royal, George Weigel, Fr. Raymond de Souza, or institutions like Franciscan University of Steubenville, Belmont Abbey College, Mount St. Mary’s University, Benedictine College? Do persons and institutions get more points for intellectualism by being somewhat less orthodox in their Catholicism than others?
Which is why I agreed with him, because his observations are quite astute; N. American conservative Catholicism does very much resemble the world-view of N. America evangelical protestantism. I rejected that world view, being openly wooed by evangelicals back when I was flirting with a return to Christianity, by coming back to Catholicism. As a scientist, I truly appreciated the fact that Catholicism welcomed scientific inquiry and intellectual development. It shows through in fact, in the Church’s theology which is IMHO the most profoundly intellectual and developed theology in Christianity. There is a beautiful logic to Aquinas, the Immaculate Conception, etc.
Being Catholic did not require that I reject scientific principle, but that instead I assent to Catholic doctrine, which is in no way incompatible with scientific discovery, evolution, climate change, etc.
Alas the points he brings up are seen all too frequently on this forum where the ability for critial thought seems lost among many of the self-described “conservatives”.
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