Vatican Shot Across the Bow for Hard-Line U.S. Catholics

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The article seems to generally call out those Catholics and christians that support Donald Trump… on things like immigration, healthcare, the planet… All things that the Pope and several American bishops have spoken about clearly…

The authors are simply stating the fact that many conservative American christians are currently out of step with the Church on these issues… and it is a dangerous thing

I often think that we over complicate things like this… this one is quite simple
 
godisgood77 said:
The article seems to generally call out those Catholics and christians that support Donald Trump… on things like immigration, healthcare, the planet… All things that the Pope and several American bishops have spoken about clearly…

The authors are simply stating the fact that many conservative American christians are currently out of step with the Church on these issues… and it is a dangerous thing

I often think that we over complicate things like this… this one is quite simple
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It may indeed be simpler than we think. It may be just an expression of dissatisfaction with the results of the last U.S. election, clothed in theological language and European political thought.
 
Peebo said:
Well…I agree…you only have to look at some of the posters on CAF…especially those here in the US…they pretty much are in sync with right wing Evangelicals on certain major issues…Immigration… Healthcare…Capitalism V Socialism…Capital Punishment…Climate Change…yet when ever the Pope (or the Bishops of the Catholic church) says anything counter to their beliefs on these issues then they just brush it off as the Pope isn’t speaking “ex cathedra” so they can just disagree with or ignore him…same goes towards the Bishops of the church…Evangelical politics has become the new religion here in the US for some Catholics…the left is no better on the other extreme…( I thought I’d add that in case I get accused of being a left wing liberal…instead of the RINO which I am )
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So please tell me why it is wrong to hold an opposite opinion on a particular politcal issue to that of the heirarchy of the church? The Church teaches that captiol punishment can be permissable. The Cathoic Church teaches that a country needs to look aftetr the safety of its citizens. CLimate Change is a scientific inquiry. The Church has no teaching on whether or not CLimate change is real.

I’m really not sure where you are coming from.

Can I ask you something?

Is a abortion an Intrinsic evil and always wrong?

Does the Church allow for different opinions and Ideas with regards to political and scientific issues?

A simple yes or no is sufficient.

Thank You!
 
JimG said:
It may indeed be simpler than we think. It may be just an expression of dissatisfaction with the results of the last U.S. election, clothed in theological language and European political thought.
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The simple - at face value - answer is normally where the truth lies.

I wouldn’t be able to agree with you that the article is an expression of dissatisfaction with the election results though. Although most in the US and abroad are indeed dissatisfied with the outcome and the first 8 months of the Trump presidency.

I think a more accurate interpretation would be that the authors are expressing concern at the Catholic and christian block of voters that got behind a man that is clearly not in line with the Church.
 
JimG said:
It may indeed be simpler than we think. It may be just an expression of dissatisfaction with the results of the last U.S. election, clothed in theological language and European political thought.
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I think this is exactly what is going on here an is below the dignity of the office these prelates hold.

They have no problem singling out Catholics that differ from their own opinions but Catholics who clearly and blatantly reject christian truths are not to be judged lest we be judged. Truly mind boggling!
 
godisgood77 said:
The simple - at face value - answer is normally where the truth lies.

I wouldn’t be able to agree with you that the article is an expression of dissatisfaction with the election results though. Although most in the US and abroad are indeed dissatisfied with the outcome and the first 8 months of the Trump presidency.

I think a more accurate interpretation would be that the authors are expressing concern at the Catholic and christian block of voters that got behind a man that is clearly not in line with the Church.
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So where was their disappointment with Catholics who Voted for a clearly Proabortion President and Prime Minister. I have a Prime minister who beleives that a Woman should be able to murder there Child up to the day they are born. Passed laws allowing for Euthansia with no restrictions. Believes that men should be allowed to walk around nude in a woman’s change room.

I find there concern how people voted laughable at best and sinister at worst!
 
godisgood77 said:
I think a more accurate interpretation would be that the authors are expressing concern at the Catholic and christian block of voters that got behind a man that is clearly not in line with the Church.
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As opposed to getting behind a woman who supported abortion all her life, who in recent years supported the gay lifestyle and who has expressed her disdain for the Church?

Just pointing out that there is no win here.
 
godisgood77 said:
The article seems to generally call out those Catholics and christians that support Donald Trump… on things like immigration, healthcare, the planet… All things that the Pope and several American bishops have spoken about clearly…

The authors are simply stating the fact that many conservative American christians are currently out of step with the Church on these issues… and it is a dangerous thing

I often think that we over complicate things like this… this one is quite simple
Click to expand...
The church has determined how I must think of these issues politically?
 
Peebo said:
Well…I agree…you only have to look at some of the posters on CAF…especially those here in the US…they pretty much are in sync with right wing Evangelicals on certain major issues…Immigration… Healthcare…Capitalism V Socialism…Capital Punishment…Climate Change…yet when ever the Pope (or the Bishops of the Catholic church) says anything counter to their beliefs on these issues then they just brush it off as the Pope isn’t speaking “ex cathedra” so they can just disagree with or ignore him…same goes towards the Bishops of the church…Evangelical politics has become the new religion here in the US for some Catholics…the left is no better on the other extreme…( I thought I’d add that in case I get accused of being a left wing liberal…instead of the RINO which I am )
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Maybe there are a lot of people who could take more of a middle ground on some of the issues you mentioned, but what is one suppose to do when the Democrats want abortion on demand for any reason and up until the time the baby is born.

I’m all for helping the poor, making it easier for immigrants to come into the country, and locking someone up (with no frills) for life rather than the death penalty. A child’s right to life outweighs all the other issues.

As for the article, as I posted in the other thread about this, I don’t think Archbishop Fulton Sheen would agree with it at all.
(2) Jews, Protestants and Catholics alike, and men of good will, must realize that the world is serving your souls with an awful summons-the summons to heroic efforts at spiritualization. Catholics ought to stir up their faith, hang a crucifix in their homes to remind them that we too have to carry a cross, gather the family together every night to recite the rosary that through corporate prayer there might be intercession for the world; go to daily Mass that the spirit of love and sacrifice might be sprinkled in our business, our social life and our duties. More heroic souls might undertake the Holy Hour daily, particularly in parishes conscious of the needs of prayers of reparation as well as petition, conducting such devotions in their churches. As for Jews, Protestants and Catholics alike an alliance is necessary not to fight against an external enemy, for our “wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places,”(Ephesians6:12) but rather a unity on the basis of men of good will, who believe in the moral law, the family, God and the Divinity of Christ. It is not a unity of religion we plead for that is impossible when purchased at the cost of the unity of truth, but a unity of religious peoples, wherein each marches separately according to the light of his conscience, but strikes together for the moral betterment of the world, through prayer, not hate. In a word, if anti-Christ has his fellow-travelers then why should not God and His Divine Son? The Roman sergeant who built a temple for the Jews was a fellow traveller with them in their belief in God. The woman at Tyre and Sidon became a fellow traveler of Christ. The forces of evil are united; the forces of good are divided. We may not be able to meet in the same pew-would to God we did-but we can meet on our knees.
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the-american-catholic.com/2017/02/26/fulton-sheen-on-the-anti-christ/
 
JimG said:
Didn’t we discuss a similar article recently published in L’Osservatore Romano? The authors of this article seem to have little understanding of U.S. Catholics or Evangelicals, focusing as they do on minor figures. They seem to impose a peculiarly European worldview on U.S. Religion and politics.
Here is a recent article from Catholic World Report:
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I agree. They don’t seem to really know much. They do manage to get in the customary swipe at a White southerners. If there is hate afoot it is always because of those terrible White southerners. The right kind of racism is still well regarded.
 
Peebo said:
Well…I agree…you only have to look at some of the posters on CAF…especially those here in the US…they pretty much are in sync with right wing Evangelicals on certain major issues…Immigration… Healthcare…Capitalism V Socialism…Capital Punishment…Climate Change…yet when ever the Pope (or the Bishops of the Catholic church) says anything counter to their beliefs on these issues then they just brush it off as the Pope isn’t speaking “ex cathedra” so they can just disagree with or ignore him…same goes towards the Bishops of the church…Evangelical politics has become the new religion here in the US for some Catholics…the left is no better on the other extreme…( I thought I’d add that in case I get accused of being a left wing liberal…instead of the RINO which I am )
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I don’t know that my particular views of immigration, healthcare, Capitalism vs Socialism, Capital Punishment or climate change are particularly “right wing”. Nor are they necessarily shared by all or even most Evangelicals. Evangelicals are an extremely varied lot and cannot be universally characterized even in terms of religious beliefs, let alone political beliefs. It seems to be a term used on people who are not Jewish, mainline protestant, Muslim or Catholic. In other words, the majority of protestants.

And I don’t think anyone can say the Pope has declared any of his views on those items (except Capital Punishment) mandatory on Catholics. As to immigration, he actually seems to take a “middle course”, allowing that nations have a right to control their borders, yet encouraging immigration within a legal framework…a position not so very different from Trump’s. And irony of ironies, many, many, many of the Hispanic immigrants to this country have abandoned Catholicism in favor of Evangelical sects; one of the worst aspects of “open borders”. And some of them return and spread it in their own countries. Open borders in the U.S. is one of the worst things the Church has ever experienced, as it has caused massive apostasy.

Traditional American Catholics have not “joined the Evangelicals”. If anyone really knew many Evangelicals (or Fundamentalists, which are not the same thing) they would know, as Flannery O’Connor said, that they hold more beliefs in common with the Catholic Church than they do with mainline Protestantism. It is not we who have joined them, it is they who (if O’Connor’s prediction is correct, and I think it is) are likely to join us.

Perhaps of at least some interest, my son wrote a paper about that in college. His professor, a Baptist minister, gave him an A+ on the paper and commented that it gave him much to think about. it was about how, being almost entirely bereft of formal doctrinal teachings, but having pretty definite religious beliefs, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists are actually following the Catholic Church, which really does have teachings that have “informed” them in bits and pieces through the culture. Seeing who the converts are in my parish, I am very much inclined to believe that.

The real danger of “apostasy to join Evangelical sects” is among Hispanic immigrants, and particularly Central Americans. Mexicans, to my observation, are a bit more resistant to it; probably because of the nearly universal reverence among them of Guadalupana. That’s a story all its own.

As to Capital punishment, I am not personally persuaded that it is immoral per se. I don’t think the Church takes that position either, doctrinally speaking. But because Pope JPII was against it, so am I “right winger” though I am, because it’s a fairly clear teaching and I think he simply neglected to add the premise that nations that can afford secure prisons should have them.
 
ProdigalSun said:
So please tell me why it is wrong to hold an opposite opinion on a particular politcal issue to that of the heirarchy of the church? The Church teaches that captiol punishment can be permissable. The Cathoic Church teaches that a country needs to look aftetr the safety of its citizens. CLimate Change is a scientific inquiry. The Church has no teaching on whether or not CLimate change is real.

I’m really not sure where you are coming from.

Can I ask you something?

Is a abortion an Intrinsic evil and always wrong?

Does the Church allow for different opinions and Ideas with regards to political and scientific issues?

A simple yes or no is sufficient.

Thank You!
Click to expand...
Have you heard of or read the encyclical Laudato Si? This document lays out the Church’s position on human ecology and the environment. An encyclical is second only to apostolic constitutions in terms of formal aurthority… so to a Catholic, this one would be pretty important.

Relative to capitol punishment, you are correct that Church allows this a possibility in very, very specific circumstances. You may also know that Pope Saint John Paul II said that the conditions under which capitol punishment is an option are virtually non-existent. so simply saying that the Church allows it is misleading (at best)

Again you’re right that the Church teaches that a nation has the right to protect itself and its citizens, but it must do so in accord with Catholic teaching and christian moral norms.

On your abortion question… No, abortion is not an intrinsic evil with is always and everywhere wrong… see this article for a pretty clear explanation of abortion and double effect. catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/abortion-and-double-effect

On your last question, yes the Church allows for varying opinions on topics on politics and open scientific questions.
 
exnihilo said:
I agree. They don’t seem to really know much. They do manage to get in the customary swipe at a White southerners. If there is hate afoot it is always because of those terrible White southerners. The right kind of racism is still well regarded.
Click to expand...
Ha!

Among other things Catholic writer Flannery O’Connor said was that the future richest ground for conversions in the U.S. would be among Southern Fundamentalists. A Southerner and a Catholic herself, she knew both very, very well.

And I agree with her.
 
From the article, with the NY Times interpretation but still …

The authors of the article argue that American evangelical and ultraconservative Catholics risk corrupting the Roman Catholic faith with an ideology intended to inject “religious influence in the political sphere.” They suggest that so-called values voters are using the banners of religious liberty and opposition to abortion to try to supplant secularism with a “theocratic type of state.”

We are not supposed to inject “religious influence in the public sphere”?
 
Zzyzx_Road said:
As opposed to getting behind a woman who supported abortion all her life, who in recent years supported the gay lifestyle and who has expressed her disdain for the Church?

Just pointing out that there is no win here.
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agreed.

a woman who supports abortion now or a man who did a little as a year ago…

I completely get those that held their nose and pulled the lever for Trump. I do not understand those that supported him enthusiastically or those that still support him.
 
ProdigalSun said:
So where was their disappointment with Catholics who Voted for a clearly Proabortion President and Prime Minister. I have a Prime minister who beleives that a Woman should be able to murder there Child up to the day they are born. Passed laws allowing for Euthansia with no restrictions. Believes that men should be allowed to walk around nude in a woman’s change room.

I find there concern how people voted laughable at best and sinister at worst!
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The pro-abortion president and prime minister question is a totally separate issue. You shouldn’t conflate the two… with that said, pro-abortion leaders are terrible and what you describe is despicable.

That doesn’t make the statements by the authors of the article wrong. It seems that you have a problem that they spoke out at all on these issues when there are other issues that you would prefer they talk about.
 
godisgood77 said:
Have you heard of or read the encyclical Laudato Si? This document lays out the Church’s position on human ecology and the environment. An encyclical is second only to apostolic constitutions in terms of formal aurthority… so to a Catholic, this one would be pretty important.

Relative to capitol punishment, you are correct that Church allows this a possibility in very, very specific circumstances. You may also know that Pope Saint John Paul II said that the conditions under which capitol punishment is an option are virtually non-existent. so simply saying that the Church allows it is misleading (at best)

Again you’re right that the Church teaches that a nation has the right to protect itself and its citizens, but it must do so in accord with Catholic teaching and christian moral norms.

On your abortion question… No, abortion is not an intrinsic evil with is always and everywhere wrong… see this article for a pretty clear explanation of abortion and double effect. catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/abortion-and-double-effect

On your last question, yes the Church allows for varying opinions on topics on politics and open scientific questions.
Click to expand...
 
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