Vatican squelches rumors of new rules on Mass facing east

[JimR-OCDS]

not blaming you.

But it isn’t rumor. I mean Sarah flat out called for priests to start saying it ad orentem. Nothing rumor about it.

I guess we are arguing semantics.

Again, the “rumor,” was that the Vatican(not Cardinal Sarah) was going to change to Ad Orientum as the norm.

Jim

 

[CatholicSooner]

The point is that the focus at Mass isn’t the tabernacle, but what is taking place at the altar. Although the tabernacle is located in the front, its generally off to a side area, of prominence, as directed by the Bishop.

Also remember, the priest doesn’t say prayers to Jesus in the tabernacle.

The Eucharistic prayers are to the Father and the priest is Christ en persona, during the Mass.

Jim

This is why I think it makes sense to face east and not the people ( in the grand scheme it really doesn’t matter). I think that the visual of seeing the priest looking away from the people reminds the people that this is a sacrifice to GOD. This is Jesus offering himself to the father…not the priest offering us Jesus

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This is why I think it makes sense to face east and not the people ( in the grand scheme it really doesn’t matter). I think that the visual of seeing the priest looking away from the people reminds the people that this is a sacrifice to GOD. This is Jesus offering himself to the father…not the priest offering us Jesus

But again, God is not away from the people, but omnipresent and dwelling within each and everyone.

The priest doesn’t have to pray to God out in the cosmos somewhere.

God is present among us.

Jim

 

[CatholicSooner]

But again, God is not away from the people, but omnipresent and dwelling within each and everyone.

The priest doesn’t have to pray to God out in the cosmos somewhere.

God is present among us.

Jim

of course he is

But as you know, tradition and symbolism, is a huge part of the Catholic Church.

I mean that reasoning is correct, but it is kind of like responses we hear from protestants no? Why do I need to go to a priest for confession? Why do I actually need to go to church, God is present everywhere.

While it is true that God is everywhere at all times, that doesn’t mean we give up traditions or symbolism. God can also be present in various forms as well

Anyways, I think we are going round and round so I’m going to call a truce

 

[ProVobis]

But again, God is not away from the people, but omnipresent and dwelling within each and everyone.

The priest doesn’t have to pray to God out in the cosmos somewhere.

God is present among us.

Jim

How does this jive with Exodus 25?

 

[gilliam]

How does this jive with Exodus 25?

For those of us in the New Covenant it is superseded by Matt 18:20

 

[jeannetherese]

When you say the “front” of the church, does this mean the tabernacle is behind the congregation?

Hi Padres1969,
No, what I mean is what we have been calling liturgical East in this thread. We face the Tabernacle (and genuflect to it when entering or before turning to leave church. The priest the tabernacle is either next to or on the altar at three churches. Parishioners enter at the back of the church and walk forwards (towards the altar at the front) as they seek places to sit.
In the fourth instance, the Tabernacle is at the back of the church (behind the pews) in an open adoration room, behind those who are assisting at Mass.
May God bless you.
jt

 

[Padres1969]

Hi Padres1969,
No, what I mean is what we have been calling liturgical East in this thread. We face the Tabernacle (and genuflect to it when entering or before turning to leave church. The priest the tabernacle is either next to or on the altar at three churches. Parishioners enter at the back of the church and walk forwards (towards the altar at the front) as they seek places to sit.
In the fourth instance, the Tabernacle is at the back of the church (behind the pews) in an open adoration room, behind those who are assisting at Mass.
May God bless you.
jt

Ah ok that makes more sense. I mean I’ve seen Catholic churches with the tabernacle not on the high altar or somewhere in the chancel or nave. But I always figured those were few and far between. And even when that were the case the tabernacle was usually somewhere in the vicinity of the altar be it behind the high altar, in a back room near the altar, etc… Never seen a Catholic church with the tabernacle behind the people.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How does this jive with Exodus 25?

Exodus must be understood that it is written in the context of tribal theology on who God is.

However, we are people of the New Testament, and God has revealed Himself in Jesus Christ.

In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;

in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe.

who is the refulgence of his glory,
the very imprint of his being,

and who sustains all things by his mighty word.
When he had accomplished purification from sins,
he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

as far superior to the angels
as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs
Hebrews 1:1-4

And God dwells within us:

So,

Jesus answered and said to him, “Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. John 14:23

Then St Paul wrote,

Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you 1 Corinthians 3:16

In contemplative prayer, we close our eyes and go to the interior of our being where God dwells, to be in His presence.

The indwelling of the Holy Trinity is taught throughout Catholic history by the mystics such as St John Cassian, St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross.

So, when a priest says Mass facing the people, he is facing God who is omnipresent and dwelling in each of us.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Padres1969,
No, what I mean is what we have been calling liturgical East in this thread. We face the Tabernacle (and genuflect to it when entering or before turning to leave church. The priest the tabernacle is either next to or on the altar at three churches. Parishioners enter at the back of the church and walk forwards (towards the altar at the front) as they seek places to sit.
In the fourth instance, the Tabernacle is at the back of the church (behind the pews) in an open adoration room, behind those who are assisting at Mass.
May God bless you.
jt

But in either of the cases, during the Mass, the priest doesn’t face the tabernacle and offer the Body and Blood of Jesus to Jesus in the tabernacle, but to the Father.

So it doesn’t matter where the tabernacle is in the church when it comes to the celebration of the Mass.

Jim

 

[jeannetherese]

But in either of the cases, during the Mass, the priest doesn’t face the tabernacle and offer the Body and Blood of Jesus to Jesus in the tabernacle, but to the Father.

So it doesn’t matter where the tabernacle is in the church when it comes to the celebration of the Mass.

Jim

Hi Jim,
That is true. He lifts it up (along with our hearts which we offer to God) as an offering to God the Father.
The extent to which arguments abound regarding Tabernacle placement seems to suggest that it (placement) does matter and that people differ in their understandings of why this might or might not be so.
Many of the arguments seem to focus on traditions; other arguments seem to focus upon Tabernacle placement as having a catechetical value. I would not argue that there is not value or that placement is meaningless.
At Mass We have God present in His Word and within the Tabernacle. The location of the tabernacle in the front of the church helps me engage more of my senses as I focus on God. I think it has a very strong catechetical value.
The Mass is still the Mass, in my church which has the Tabernacle in the back, but it does seem dismissive, putting our Lord behind us. And I think that has a catechetical value as well.
May God bless you.
jt

 

[PatrickKennedy]

I’m pleased it was a retrograde step. I certainly don’t want the priest’s back to me

 

[Randolph]

I’m pleased it was a retrograde step. I certainly don’t want the priest’s back to me

This is precisely the attitude Cardinal Sarah warned us about. The Mass has never been about “me”. When the “me” attitude creeps in and takes its forms in the Mass, liturgical abuses (disrespecting Christ) become common place. The Mass is centered on Christ. In Ad Orientem, it is wrong to presume the priest turns his back on the people. Rather, symbolically it is the priest facing Christ and leading his flock to Christ. It is that simple.

 

[ProVobis]

So, when a priest says Mass facing the people, he is facing God who is omnipresent and dwelling in each of us.

If this is true, then it wouldn’t matter what direction he is facing.

Forcing the priest to face the people is strictly done from pastoral concerns. Sorry but no one here has demonstrated a sound theological reason for doing so.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If this is true, then it wouldn’t matter what direction he is facing.

.

It would matter, because we’re celebrating the Mass together, not as individuals.

Jim

 

[Randolph]

It would matter, because we’re celebrating the Mass together, not as individuals.

Jim

It does matter when the Mass is not centered on Christ, but rather centered on people celebrating together be it as individuals or as a group. It is true that there are great values when people come together and celebrate. But with Christ not being in the center of worship, it is not a Mass. It is simply at best a great gathering of people.

Christ is of course everywhere. We pray daily to Him from anywhere while facing any direction. That is not the issue. In Ad Orientem, when the priest faces and leads his flock to Christ from the liturgical East, it is a clear, faithful, communal act leading by the priest focused completely on Christ.

 

[ProVobis]

It would matter, because we’re celebrating the Mass together, not as individuals.

Then it would make more sense to be all facing the same direction, led by the priest. Individuals belong in trading pits where they face each other. But what do I know?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It does matter when the Mass is not centered on Christ, but rather centered on people celebrating together be it as individuals or as a group. It is true that there are great values when people come together and celebrate. But with Christ not being in the center of worship, it is not a Mass. It is simply at best a great gathering of people.

Christ is of course everywhere. We pray daily to Him from anywhere while facing any direction. That is not the issue. In Ad Orientem, when the priest faces and leads his flock to Christ from the liturgical East, it is a clear, faithful, communal act leading by the priest focused completely on Christ.

You mixing apples and oranges here. At no time did I even suggest that the Mass is not centered on Christ.

But Christ also instituted the Mass for us, not for himself and we as a people of faith, come together in union, and receive as a community, which is where Holy Communion derives from.

Lastly, read the article, it provides why the priest facing the people is not going to be replaced with ad orientum as a mandate.

Jim

 

[Randolph]

You mixing apples and oranges here. At no time did I even suggest that the Mass is not centered on Christ.

But Christ also instituted the Mass for us, not for himself and we as a people of faith, come together in union, and receive as a community, which is where Holy Communion derives from.

Lastly, read the article, it provides why the priest facing the people is not going to be replaced with ad orientum as a mandate.

Jim

After reading your explanation, I agree with you.

 

[Wannabe_Monk_16]

Lastly, read the article, it provides why the priest facing the people is not going to be replaced with ad orientum as a mandate.

Jim

I know it’s not a mandate, but can a priest celebrate the Mass ad orientem??