Vatican Supports Two-State Solution

[someguy14]

Israel is small enough already and having muslims slowly try and take over Israel from the hebrews in a two state leap, doesnt help that situation.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

I agree that Palestinians should get their own state, in Iran.

 

[GEddie]

There will finally be a Palestine state, if for no other reason that the Palestinians are out-multiplying the Jews of Israel and, if not let go, will outnumber the Israelis.

If the Jewish state is to be maintained without an increasingly draconian and burdensome administration over the Palestinians, a separate state must be formed.

However, the fact that Palestinian refugees will not be citizens of the new state says it all: these human beings will remain pawns in the ongoing stalemate; the 2 sides seem not to be really trying for a solution at all.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Contarini]

This is a very worrying position for the Vatican to take. For the life of me I find it sickening that the Church would side with a people that is calling for the blood of Israel. Has the Vatican forgot the dancing on the streets of Gazza after 9/11?
The land was promised to the Jews by **God !!! **

THE LAST THING THE MIDDLE EAST NEEDS IS ANOTHER ISLAMIC STATE !!!

I find it sickening that you put feelings of revenge and dubious Protestant interpretations of Biblical prophecy above the basic claims of human dignity as rightly upheld by the Catholic Church.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I don’t mean this as a personal criticism of Catholicism but the
understanding of prophesy by the laity seems to be very poor.
Just as the understanding of Sacramental Spirituality is poorly
understood by Protestantism.
Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

It’s not about the “laity.” It’s about the longstanding exegetical tradition of the Church, which was rejected by J. N. Darby and those misguided Protestants who follow him.

It’s not a lack of understanding. It’s an orthodox tradition vs. a modern heretical innovation.

Actually, I don’t have a problem with the idea that God’s promise of land remains in effect. I certainly understand why the Jews continue to believe this, and I differ from much of the Christian tradition in not holding dogmatically that they are wrong. However, a literal interpretation of the OT prophecies on these points is not the traditional Christian view, and certainly does not take priority over basic questions of ethics, such as those the Vatican uses to guide its policy.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

We both know you know what I meant. No one who commits wilful murder against others can be a true and genuine Christian.

If you mean “in a state of grace,” sure.

But it is not the traditional usage to speak of only those in a state of grace as Christians. This would be a rather useless way of speaking, since in fact we can’t judge who is in a state of grace.

A person who commits an act of terrorism may be honestly convinced that their actions are not murder, or they may not be in their right mind, or they may have lapsed through passion and repented soon afterwards. Thus, saying that terrorists cannot be Christians is an abuse of both language and orthodox soteriology.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

One state? It might not be an alternative you or I like, but it’s a possibility to be sure.

The US tried a 2 state solution back in the 1860s…didn’t work out.

No, the U.S., under the leadership of President Lincoln, adamantly refused to try a two-state solution. We don’t know how it would have worked out. Maybe it would have preserved slavery for decades and ultimately resulted in a longstanding system of racial injustice much worse than the historical “Jim Crow.” But maybe it wouldn’t have. We will never know.

And, of course, the special circumstance there was the abominable institution of race-based chattel slavery. It is not valid to trade on our abhorrence for that particular institution to make a general point about “two-state solutions.” Though, of course, many people feel a similar abhorrence for Islam and for anything that challenges Israel’s “right to the land.”

Edwin

 

[JimR-OCDS]

How dare you make this assumption!! You see, this is what I am talking about!! History is history, it is in the past. And I wasn’t even around then!! Neither was the majority of people today!! How dare anyone accuse me of being sub-conciously and naturally anti-Semitic and ready to persecute Jews at the drop of a hat!! Are they spychic? Are they God? Can they read the hearts and mnds of all non-Jews?

This inflammatory and slanderous accusation does not make me want to support them. They need to try another tactic.

-Chris

I don’t know why you’re reacting to my statement this way?

It’s a irrefutable fact that Jews have been the targets of discrimination throughout Europe for centuries.

Why you took this personal I can’t understand, but my apologies if I missed something to cause you to react in such a way.

Jim

 

[Contarini]

It,s totally ok. If you had ever lived in a country were people were regularly scraped of the street you would know.

This logic escapes me. The fact that some injustices are worse than others does not make any injustice OK.

The logic escapes me in spite of the fact that my father not only thinks as you do but (being a man of great honor, honesty, and courage) actually tried out this argument on a Palestinian cab-driver. My father’s friend who was in the cab with him was terrified that the driver would retaliate, but he didn’t, though I believe he became rather angry.

Edwin

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t like benig falsely accused of something, like being secretly anti-Semitic. Of course I am going to react passionately.

-Chris

I did not, nor have I accuse you or anyone in particular in my statement.

You over reacted.

Jim

 

[chosen_people]

This is one of the three or four areas where I have a different opinion than the Catholic Church does. And, I think it is one of the few allowable areas as well, as it is political.

I definitely agree with what Ricky Rasper has been saying about this. I believe that there are 22 or 23 Arabic Muslim states in the Middle East. Why should the ONLY Jewish state in the Middle East be divided into two? Making a small state even more small.

The Arab countries are equally to blame for the plight of the Palestinians. They don’t want the Palestinians living in their countries, any more than the Jews want them living in Israel.

However, there isn’t a solution in any of that. So, my solution would that the Palestinian state already exists: Jordan. Politicans have already said as much. So, this is definitely a legitimate school of thought. One that happens to agree with the actions of the Israeli settlers.

So, more simply. I don’t want to see a Palestinian state, unless it is in Jordan. And I want Israel to have all the land it currently claims.

Well actually what we have here is a proposal for a four state solution. First we have the Palestinian Arab majority state of Jordan made up of 76% of the land of the British mandate intended for the Jewish state. This is currently a monarchy but in the wake of the “Arab spring” is in real danger of coming under radical Muslim Brotherhood control (along with Egypt). Then we have the radical Islamic fundamentalist Palestinian state of Hamas controlled Gaza, bitter enemies not only of all Jews but also of Abbas and the PLO. Then we have Abbas calling for a third Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria. Now the only common factor linking these Arab Palestinian states is their insistence that any and all areas under their control be completely 100% Jew free (the way you get around this problem is to accuse Israel, with full equal rights for its Arab citizens, as being an “apartheid state”, just as one poster got around the problem of such acts as the massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929 and the Arab Ben Yehuda st. bombing in Jerusalem (February 1948) and the constant and cruel Arab terror against Jews (like the recent Fogel family terrorist murders) by claiming that Israel was “founded in terrorism”). Now the Catholics on the other hand have come along way. It was just over a hundred years ago that Pius X explained to Herzl who had come seeking Catholic Church support for a Jewish state that “The Jews have not recognised our Lord, therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people,” to today’s full diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Israel.

 

[RICKY_RASPER]

Well actually what we have here is a proposal for a four state solution. First we have the Palestinian Arab majority state of Jordan made up of 76% of the land of the British mandate intended for the Jewish state. This is currently a monarchy but in the wake of the “Arab spring” is in real danger of coming under radical Muslim Brotherhood control (along with Egypt). Then we have the radical Islamic fundamentalist Palestinian state of Hamas controlled Gaza, bitter enemies not only of all Jews but also of Abbas and the PLO. Then we have Abbas calling for a third Palestinian state in Judea and Samaria. Now the only common factor linking these Arab Palestinian states is their insistence that any and all areas under their control be completely 100% Jew free (the way you get around this problem is to accuse Israel, with full equal rights for its Arab citizens, as being an “apartheid state”, just as one poster got around the problem of such acts as the massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929 and the Arab Ben Yehuda st. bombing in Jerusalem (February 1948) and the constant and cruel Arab terror against Jews (like the recent Fogel family terrorist murders) by claiming that Israel was “founded in terrorism”). Now the Catholics on the other hand have come along way. It was just over a hundred years ago that Pius X explained to Herzl who had come seeking Catholic Church support for a Jewish state that “The Jews have not recognised our Lord, therefore we cannot recognise the Jewish people,” to today’s full diplomatic relations between the Vatican and Israel.

I’m so sorry for the huge amount of anti-Semitic sentiment you have found on these pages.
I have noticed a trend in verbal abuse and bullying when a pro-Israel Christians make a post supporting Israel. But please remember not all Christians want to see an end to God’s People Israel.
Blessings Richard .

 

[cmforte]

I don’t know why you’re reacting to my statement this way?

It’s a irrefutable fact that Jews have been the targets of discrimination throughout Europe for centuries.

Why you took this personal I can’t understand, but my apologies if I missed something to cause you to react in such a way.

Jim

Because, if you go back over all the posts in our discussion, you will see that some people are saying the Jews need their own State because that history of discrimination in Europe (especially the Holocaust) has caused them not to trust Europeans (and Americans) not to one-day persecute them again. I am an American of European descent, so by extension, they are talking about me.

-Chris

 

[Matthew_Holford]

If you mean “in a state of grace,” sure.

But it is not the traditional usage to speak of only those in a state of grace as Christians. This would be a rather useless way of speaking, since in fact we can’t judge who is in a state of grace.

A person who commits an act of terrorism may be honestly convinced that their actions are not murder, or they may not be in their right mind, or they may have lapsed through passion and repented soon afterwards. Thus, saying that terrorists cannot be Christians is an abuse of both language and orthodox soteriology.

Edwin

With my limited abilities that’s all I could muster.

 

[Caldera]

Benjamin Netanyahu U.N. Address 9/23/11 (Full Version)
youtube.com/watch?v=t2g_vGU7FIE&feature=related

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Because, if you go back over all the posts in our discussion, you will see that some people are saying the Jews need their own State because that history of discrimination in Europe (especially the Holocaust) has caused them not to trust Europeans (and Americans) not to one-day persecute them again. I am an American of European descent, so by extension, they are talking about me.

-Chris

Most of us Americans in this forum are of European descent, but don’t take it personal what our ancestors of generations past did.

The historical facts are that Jews were discriminated against throughout history, and the Church is guilty of some of the persecution that took place, not just in Europe BTW, but here in the USA as well.

Jim

 

[Roy5]

A couple of thoughts

1. **There is plenty of blame to go around**. Terrorism needs to be condemned, whether by Arab terrorists or the terrorism practiced by the Israeli army - when it invaded Gaza, for example, and killed civilians well beyond what was necessary.

 2. **The best way to assure the security of Israel and the USA is to deal justly with the Palestinians**. They were driven from their homes in 1948, and again in 1967. Except for the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt sought to regain the Sinai, all the wars - it can be argued - were initiated by Israel, despite popular belief. Check the facts. Read especially the book "The Israel Lobby and US Foriegn Policy". 

 3. **As we give unquestioned support for Israel** - billions each year for decades, plus our latest military equipment plus diplomatic backing in the UN - most of the world will continue to see us as a puppet of Israel. This will also increase Muslim bitterness and help Al Qaeda. Gen. Patraeus, among others, has emphasized how much our one-sided policy re Israel has hurt us amd our troops in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

 4.** Why is it that the USA has pleaded with Israel to refrain from building and expanding settlements on the West Bank but Israel continues to do that** - and with our tax money! The arrogance of Netanyahu is outrageous. How can Israel claim to approve of a Palestinian state when it continues to build on Palestinian territory, build Jews-only roads, and in other ways make a Palestinian state all but impossible? 

 5. **Now, as for the Bible**, if I read Genesis correctly, God promised Abraham everything from the river in Egypt (Nile) to the Euphrates. So, should the US insist that Israel not only have the West Bank but part of Egypt, all of Jordan, and major portions of Syria, Iraq, etc.? Nonsense. Two things. (1) God is not in the real estate business. God wants justice and peace. (2) Many believe that the Arabs also are the heirs of Abraham through Ishmael, so one has to bear that in mind. 

  **As for now. America can be the greatest help to Israel by achieving peace with justice.** Unfortunately, our politicians are afraid of the Israel lobby with its $millions to use against them and the Christian Zionists who have been misled by false prophets and warped interpretations of scripture.

  God bless America, Israel, the Arabs and all of his children of every color, creed, culture and country. I have been to Israel four times on pilgrimage and admire Israel very much. However, Christ would want his followers to be bridges to peace rather than barriers who promote hostility and spread false propaganda. Muslim extremists are dangerous dogmatists - but so are Christians who have a twisted and closed view of the world situation. Curiously, they work together against the best interests of the US, Israel and the world.

 

[cmforte]

Most of us Americans in this forum are of European descent, but don’t take it personal what our ancestors of generations past did.

The historical facts are that Jews were discriminated against throughout history, and the Church is guilty of some of the persecution that took place, not just in Europe BTW, but here in the USA as well.

Jim

What I was sid was that some are saying that that historical discrimination will happen again unless the Jews have thier own State.

-Chris

 

[cmforte]

A couple of thoughts

1. **There is plenty of blame to go around**. Terrorism needs to be condemned, whether by Arab terrorists or the terrorism practiced by the Israeli army - when it invaded Gaza, for example, and killed civilians well beyond what was necessary.

 2. **The best way to assure the security of Israel and the USA is to deal justly with the Palestinians**. They were driven from their homes in 1948, and again in 1967. Except for the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt sought to regain the Sinai, all the wars - it can be argued - were initiated by Israel, despite popular belief. Check the facts. Read especially the book "The Israel Lobby and US Foriegn Policy". 

 3. **As we give unquestioned support for Israel** - billions each year for decades, plus our latest military equipment plus diplomatic backing in the UN - most of the world will continue to see us as a puppet of Israel. This will also increase Muslim bitterness and help Al Qaeda. Gen. Patraeus, among others, has emphasized how much our one-sided policy re Israel has hurt us amd our troops in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

 4.** Why is it that the USA has pleaded with Israel to refrain from building and expanding settlements on the West Bank but Israel continues to do that** - and with our tax money! The arrogance of Netanyahu is outrageous. How can Israel claim to approve of a Palestinian state when it continues to build on Palestinian territory, build Jews-only roads, and in other ways make a Palestinian state all but impossible? 

 5. **Now, as for the Bible**, if I read Genesis correctly, God promised Abraham everything from the river in Egypt (Nile) to the Euphrates. So, should the US insist that Israel not only have the West Bank but part of Egypt, all of Jordan, and major portions of Syria, Iraq, etc.? Nonsense. Two things. (1) God is not in the real estate business. God wants justice and peace. (2) Many believe that the Arabs also are the heirs of Abraham through Ishmael, so one has to bear that in mind. 

  **As for now. America can be the greatest help to Israel by achieving peace with justice.** Unfortunately, our politicians are afraid of the Israel lobby with its $millions to use against them and the Christian Zionists who have been misled by false prophets and warped interpretations of scripture.

  God bless America, Israel, the Arabs and all of his children of every color, creed, culture and country. I have been to Israel four times on pilgrimage and admire Israel very much. However, Christ would want his followers to be bridges to peace rather than barriers who promote hostility and spread false propaganda. Muslim extremists are dangerous dogmatists - but so are Christians who have a twisted and closed view of the world situation. Curiously, they work together against the best interests of the US, Israel and the world.

Best post so far!! I agree!

-Chris

 

[Tsuwano]

A couple of thoughts

1. **There is plenty of blame to go around**. Terrorism needs to be condemned, whether by Arab terrorists or the terrorism practiced by the Israeli army - when it invaded Gaza, for example, and killed civilians well beyond what was necessary.

 2. **The best way to assure the security of Israel and the USA is to deal justly with the Palestinians**. They were driven from their homes in 1948, and again in 1967. Except for the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt sought to regain the Sinai, all the wars - it can be argued - were initiated by Israel, despite popular belief. Check the facts. Read especially the book "The Israel Lobby and US Foriegn Policy". 

 3. **As we give unquestioned support for Israel** - billions each year for decades, plus our latest military equipment plus diplomatic backing in the UN - most of the world will continue to see us as a puppet of Israel. This will also increase Muslim bitterness and help Al Qaeda. Gen. Patraeus, among others, has emphasized how much our one-sided policy re Israel has hurt us amd our troops in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

 4.** Why is it that the USA has pleaded with Israel to refrain from building and expanding settlements on the West Bank but Israel continues to do that** - and with our tax money! The arrogance of Netanyahu is outrageous. How can Israel claim to approve of a Palestinian state when it continues to build on Palestinian territory, build Jews-only roads, and in other ways make a Palestinian state all but impossible? 

 5. **Now, as for the Bible**, if I read Genesis correctly, God promised Abraham everything from the river in Egypt (Nile) to the Euphrates. So, should the US insist that Israel not only have the West Bank but part of Egypt, all of Jordan, and major portions of Syria, Iraq, etc.? Nonsense. Two things. (1) God is not in the real estate business. God wants justice and peace. (2) Many believe that the Arabs also are the heirs of Abraham through Ishmael, so one has to bear that in mind. 

  **As for now. America can be the greatest help to Israel by achieving peace with justice.** Unfortunately, our politicians are afraid of the Israel lobby with its $millions to use against them and the Christian Zionists who have been misled by false prophets and warped interpretations of scripture.

  God bless America, Israel, the Arabs and all of his children of every color, creed, culture and country. I have been to Israel four times on pilgrimage and admire Israel very much. However, Christ would want his followers to be bridges to peace rather than barriers who promote hostility and spread false propaganda. Muslim extremists are dangerous dogmatists - but so are Christians who have a twisted and closed view of the world situation. Curiously, they work together against the best interests of the US, Israel and the world.

I heartily agree. Good post!