Vatican Supports Two-State Solution

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Roy5 said:
A couple of thoughts
Code: 
1. **There is plenty of blame to go around**. Terrorism needs to be condemned, whether by Arab terrorists or the terrorism practiced by the Israeli army - when it invaded Gaza, for example, and killed civilians well beyond what was necessary.
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We have made it a point that Israel and the Jews always get blamed, we have to admit that.

What we always see in the news are the response of Israel against those thugs, that we labeled as ‘Overkill’. The use of powerful weapons against those thugs that are hiding behind crowded areas are seriously condemned simply because there are ‘innocent’ bystanders in the area.

For one, the civilians support the iran sponsored Islamic terrorist that cowardly hides behind civilian homes in Gaza. They frequently use these places to stage acts of terrorism like launching their rockets towards Israel. These civilians approved these terroristic acts, which make them accomplices to terrorism. Sorry but I have to admit that these people were made political Pawns and were made dispensable commodities in the cause of jihad.
 
Roy5 said:
A couple of thoughts
Code: 
 2. **The best way to assure the security of Israel and the USA is to deal justly with the Palestinians**. They were driven from their homes in 1948, and again in 1967. Except for the Yom Kippur War, when Egypt sought to regain the Sinai, all the wars - it can be argued - were initiated by Israel, despite popular belief. Check the facts. Read especially the book "The Israel Lobby and US Foriegn Policy".
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Well 5 arabian armies invaded Israel and lost during the War for Independence in 1948. Maybe we should be reminded that even news broadcast abroad, specifically in London knew who urged the arabs to leave Israel.

“The most potent factor [in the flight of Palestinians] was the announcements made over the air by the Arab-Palestinian Higher Executive, urging all Haifa Arabs to quit… It was clearly intimated that Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades.”
– London Economist October 2, 1948
 
Roy5 said:
A couple of thoughts
Code: 
3. **As we give unquestioned support for Israel** - billions each year for decades, plus our latest military equipment plus diplomatic backing in the UN - most of the world will continue to see us as a puppet of Israel. This will also increase Muslim bitterness and help Al Qaeda. Gen. Patraeus, among others, has emphasized how much our one-sided policy re Israel has hurt us amd our troops in places like Afghanistan and Iraq.
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If the world sees the US as a puppet of Israel then we should equally affirm that every muslims states in the region are ‘Tyrants’ against the Palestinian people. They just want all the land of the ME for the muslims alone, and with all means including the destruction of a Jewish State.

Why cant Jordan absorbed the refugees when majority of its population are really Palestinians in the first place? Why can’t Saudi Arabia?
 
Roy5 said:
A couple of thoughts
4.** Why is it that the USA has pleaded with Israel to refrain from building and expanding settlements on the West Bank but Israel continues to do that** - and with our tax money! The arrogance of Netanyahu is outrageous. How can Israel claim to approve of a Palestinian state when it continues to build on Palestinian territory, build Jews-only roads, and in other ways make a Palestinian state all but impossible?
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You also give aid to the Palestinians through your tax money via UNESCO. One Palestinian diplomat admitted that the authorities’ lost billions of dollars of aid and can not account where those billions went. This was from the time of Arafat. Now does anyone know where it was used? Americans should equally demand to these ‘authorities’, where are the infrastructures that were supposedly funded by American Tax payers?

Be glad, Israel is transparent about where the aid, that came from American tax money, is really going and is easily accounted for.
 
Roy5 said:
A couple of thoughts
Code: 
5. **Now, as for the Bible**, if I read Genesis correctly, God promised Abraham everything from the river in Egypt (Nile) to the Euphrates. So, should the US insist that Israel not only have the West Bank but part of Egypt, all of Jordan, and major portions of Syria, Iraq, etc.? Nonsense. Two things. (1) God is not in the real estate business. God wants justice and peace. (2) Many believe that the Arabs also are the heirs of Abraham through Ishmael, so one has to bear that in mind.
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Okay but we have to admit that God’s covenants were made in the line of Isaac and Jacob. It is also good to point out God owns the Land of Israel and never waived His covenants concerning Eretz Israel.

Even Vatican 2 echoes that God gifts to Israel are irrevocable, particularly the land of Israel. The importance and permanence of this gift is repeated and emphasized dozens of times in Scripture. To deny the connection of the Jews to Eretz Israel thus means nothing less than denying the faithfulness of God’s promises and the truth of His Word.
 
For what it’s worth, here is exactly what Msgr Momberti said (in French, auto-translated by Google Translate):

A final observation concerns the application for recognition of Palestine as a Member State of the United Nations, presented right here on Sept. 23 by the President of the Palestinian National Authority, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas. The Holy See considers the initiative in the context of attempts to find a final solution, with support from the international community, the question already faced by Resolution 181 of the General Assembly of the United Nations, dated 29 November 1947. This paper raises the fundamental legal basis for the existence of two states. One of them has already been created, while the other has not yet been established, although nearly sixty-four years have passed. The Holy See is convinced that if we want peace, you have to take courageous decisions. He hoped that the bodies of the United Nations take a commitment to help effectively implement the ultimate objective, that is to say, the realization of the right of Palestinians to have their own independent and sovereign state and the rights of Israelis security, both states being provided with internationally recognized borders. The United Nations’ response, whatever it is, will not constitute a complete solution and we will not achieve lasting peace through negotiations in good faith between Israelis and Palestinians, avoiding actions or conditions that contradict the statements of goodwill. The Holy See, therefore, urges the parties to resume negotiations with determination and address an urgent appeal to the international community to increase its commitment and stimulate creativity and initiative, so that we arrive at a lasting peace , respecting the rights of Israelis and Palestinians.

If anybody reads French, you can see the original at the Vatican Secretary of State site here.

The information reported in America magazine makes it sounds like the Vatican threw Israel under the bus. What he actually said sounds like a re-statement of the US position since the days of Pres. Clinton.

Interesting how that works.
 
Yes the Church advocates a two state solution, but the church must also be cautious on these questions,

What will be the assurance of Israel in the event of the establishment of a Palestinian State without going through a brokered deal towards Peace?

How sure is Israel that this event is NOT viewed as a first step towards the destruction of the Jewish State of Israel?
 
trdchubi
Code: 
**This isn't the place, and I don't have the time, to respond fully to your points**. In my mind - no offense - you are one of millions of decent, well-intentioned  Americans who have been thoroughly indoctrinated by Israel partisans. Understandable. But I regard that view as destructive of Israel, against US interests, and a serious threat to world peace. 

 **I strongly suggest that those interested in the facts read *The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy*.** There are many other sound sources, also, such as *Link*, an excellent periodical that presents a view at odds with what is carried in bthe US media. The media, of course, is heavily biased in favor of Israel, There are several Jewish groups that show sympathy for and understanding og both sides, such as Jews for Peace, the *Tikkun* magazine, J St. and others. We have a responsibility as Americans and Christians to give both sides an honest hearing.

 **Years ago I was 100% for Israel**. I began to realize that there were two sides in 1956 when Israel, Britain and France attacked Israel in what seemed to me to be an antiquated colonialist invasion. Fortunately, President Eisenhower demanded that the invasion and bombing stop, which it did. Bravo for Eisenhower!

**One concrete illustration**. In our area, a newspaper editorial was slightly critical of Sharon and the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, including shelling of Beirut, etc. The local rabbi, a militant, boasted that he had enough merchant-advertizers in his congregation to close the paper down. Since then the paper has never carried an editorial word critical of Israel.

 **Just one further point. You talk about UNESCO giving US tax money to the Palestinians.** Hm. Is that UNESCO? I do know that the UN has helped feed the refugees displaced by the Israelis. I don't think that involves UNESCO. Now, of course, some in Congress want that pittance stopped. In any case, the amount going to Palestinian relief is miniscule when one compares it to the billions annually of our tax money that go to Israel. Probably over $100 billion to date, and even much more when inflation is considered.
** I repeat. The best defense for Israel is a just peace**, living in harmony with a Palestinian state next door. Why is it that Israel keeps building and expanding settlements on land that would become a Palestinian state? How many - maybe 400,000 settlers, or some such figure, already. ‘Facts on the ground.’ No wonder Israel is so despised by nearly all the world. Under Netanyahu it displays such outrageous arrogance that even former allies/friends like Turkey, Jordan and Egypt are being alienated. How does that help Israel or the cause of peace?
Code: 
 ** I am a true friend of Israel. Friends don't let friends drive drunk.** The US must not let Israel run amok - and with our money. And how silly it appears to the world that this great country is led around by the nose by that tiny nation because of domestic politics - votes, but especially campaign contributions - here at home.  

 **Lots of other points, if time.** Did you know that Hamas was encouraged by the Israeli government because it opposed Arafat. One example of unintended consequences. Why was Hamas elected in gaza? In large part because of years and year and years of occupation with no end in sight. The best way to squelch Hamas is to work for justice for the Palestinians. Why do we have such a blind spot when it comes to compassion? 

  **The Pope has taken a stand for a two-state solution**. When will we see progress? Instead, Netanyahu thumbs his nose at the US and new buildings on disputed territory are announced. His arrogance is unbounded, and Israel will pay the price if it doesn't change its tune. The Old Testament prophets keep warning of that. "Let justice roll down like aters and righetousness as a mighty stream!"

   God bless Israel and Jerusalem with peace. That will come when there is justice. Meanwhile, read both sides. I am sure that this will make you agree that the best US policy is both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, the only way through this mess.
 
Roy5 said:
trdchubi
Code: 
**This isn't the place, and I don't have the time, to respond fully to your points**. In my mind - no offense - you are one of millions of decent, well-intentioned  Americans who have been thoroughly indoctrinated by Israel partisans. Understandable. But I regard that view as destructive of Israel, against US interests, and a serious threat to world peace. 

 **I strongly suggest that those interested in the facts read *The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy***. There are many other sound sources, also, such as *Link*, an excellent periodical that presents a view at odds with what is carried in bthe US media. The media, of course, is heavily biased in favor of Israel, There are several Jewish groups that show sympathy for and understanding og both sides, such as Jews for Peace, the *Tikkun* magazine, J St. and others. We have a responsibility as Americans and Christians to give both sides an honest hearing.

 **Years ago I was 100% for Israel**. I began to realize that there were two sides in 1956 when Israel, Britain and France attacked Israel in what seemed to me to be an antiquated colonialist invasion. Fortunately, President Eisenhower demanded that the invasion and bombing stop, which it did. Bravo for Eisenhower!

**One concrete illustration**. In our area, a newspaper editorial was slightly critical of Sharon and the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, including shelling of Beirut, etc. The local rabbi, a militant, boasted that he had enough merchant-advertizers in his congregation to close the paper down. Since then the paper has never carried an editorial word critical of Israel.

 **Just one further point. You talk about UNESCO giving US tax money to the Palestinians.** Hm. Is that UNESCO? I do know that the UN has helped feed the refugees displaced by the Israelis. I don't think that involves UNESCO. Now, of course, some in Congress want that pittance stopped. In any case, the amount going to Palestinian relief is miniscule when one compares it to the billions annually of our tax money that go to Israel. Probably over $100 billion to date, and even much more when inflation is considered.
** I repeat. The best defense for Israel is a just peace**, living in harmony with a Palestinian state next door. Why is it that Israel keeps building and expanding settlements on land that would become a Palestinian state? How many - maybe 400,000 settlers, or some such figure, already. ‘Facts on the ground.’ No wonder Israel is so despised by nearly all the world. Under Netanyahu it displays such outrageous arrogance that even former allies/friends like Turkey, Jordan and Egypt are being alienated. How does that help Israel or the cause of peace?
Code: 
 ** I am a true friend of Israel. Friends don't let friends drive drunk.** The US must not let Israel run amok - and with our money. And how silly it appears to the world that this great country is led around by the nose by that tiny nation because of domestic politics - votes, but especially campaign contributions - here at home.  

 **Lots of other points, if time.** Did you know that Hamas was encouraged by the Israeli government because it opposed Arafat. One example of unintended consequences. Why was Hamas elected in gaza? In large part because of years and year and years of occupation with no end in sight. The best way to squelch Hamas is to work for justice for the Palestinians. Why do we have such a blind spot when it comes to compassion? 

  **The Pope has taken a stand for a two-state solution**. When will we see progress? Instead, Netanyahu thumbs his nose at the US and new buildings on disputed territory are announced. His arrogance is unbounded, and Israel will pay the price if it doesn't change its tune. The Old Testament prophets keep warning of that. "Let justice roll down like aters and righetousness as a mighty stream!"

   God bless Israel and Jerusalem with peace. That will come when there is justice. Meanwhile, read both sides. I am sure that this will make you agree that the best US policy is both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, the only way through this mess.
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An excellent and unemotional response! 👍
 
markomalley said:
For what it’s worth, here is exactly what Msgr Momberti said (in French, auto-translated by Google Translate):

A final observation concerns the application for recognition of Palestine as a Member State of the United Nations, presented right here on Sept. 23 by the President of the Palestinian National Authority, Mr. Mahmoud Abbas. The Holy See considers the initiative in the context of attempts to find a final solution, with support from the international community, the question already faced by Resolution 181 of the General Assembly of the United Nations, dated 29 November 1947. This paper raises the fundamental legal basis for the existence of two states. One of them has already been created, while the other has not yet been established, although nearly sixty-four years have passed. The Holy See is convinced that if we want peace, you have to take courageous decisions. He hoped that the bodies of the United Nations take a commitment to help effectively implement the ultimate objective, that is to say, the realization of the right of Palestinians to have their own independent and sovereign state and the rights of Israelis security, both states being provided with internationally recognized borders. The United Nations’ response, whatever it is, will not constitute a complete solution and we will not achieve lasting peace through negotiations in good faith between Israelis and Palestinians, avoiding actions or conditions that contradict the statements of goodwill. The Holy See, therefore, urges the parties to resume negotiations with determination and address an urgent appeal to the international community to increase its commitment and stimulate creativity and initiative, so that we arrive at a lasting peace , respecting the rights of Israelis and Palestinians.

If anybody reads French, you can see the original at the Vatican Secretary of State site here.

The information reported in America magazine makes it sounds like the Vatican threw Israel under the bus. What he actually said sounds like a re-statement of the US position since the days of Pres. Clinton.

Interesting how that works.
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Actually the article from America Magazine stated what you posted above.

Jim
 
A two-state solution is just. I think we need to put the issues into different buckets:

Geopolitical Argument

There is no incentive for either side to cease-fire, as it were, while the issue is undecided. The Palestinians want a homeland. The Israelis want security. The question, then, is how much less security will Israel have should a two-state solution come about which restores the '67 borders? There are certainly arguments to be made that the pre-1967 borders increases Israeli vulnerability. But in the age of assymetric warfare, this vulnerability is less important than encouraging the Palestinian “government” to disarm their terrorist organizations from within. This will not happen as long as the occupied territories remain occupied, and especially if Israel keeps building settlements on them . Should the Palestinians be granted national borders, an act of terrorism not addressed by the Palestinian Government becomes a state-sanctioned act of war. One could argue that this would give the Israelis much more latitude to directly strike at and decapitate groups like Hamas. The “moral” justification would rise considerably, because these groups can no longer be portrayed as freedom fighters or “revolutionaries”. They would be considered state-sponsored terrorists unless the Palestinian gov’t removes the threat. Israel could simply invoke the Bush Doctrine and have at it. So, in some ways, statehood for the Palestinians removes a lot of ambiguity from the question of what is appropriate for Israel to respond with in self-defense.

**Humanitarian Argument **

Innocent men, women, and children are suffering on both sides. Promoting peace in the region is a moral obligation we have to them. Part of that obligation is seeking a just remedy to the conflict. Since the Palestinians have been effectively “ghettoized” by Israel’s occupation, the onus is on Israel to alleviate this suffering by earnestly pursuing a solution whereby the Palestinians can be self-governed. The Israelis cannot argue that innocent men and women and children who do not ascribe to terrorism are being treated justly by keeping them behind a fence.

Messianic Argument

Some believe that the geopolitical situation in Israel is a fulfillment of prophecy, or that God wants us to preserve the Israeli homeland because He gave it to them in the first place.

Unfortunately, the influence of dispensationalism and other fundamentalist exegesis has led Catholics to believe that the Israeli homeland is to be solemnly protected because of God. This is not a tenable position for a few reasons:
  1. We have become self-appointed saviors of Israel, which leads to blind alliance, regardless of the geopolitical situation. Some among us believe this is an alliance that must be preserved at any cost, and under any circumstance, because of point number 2 (below).
  2. Israel proper is only negatively germane to the end times. The New Jerusalem is not located on the Mediterranean. The New Jerusalem is the Church. God made that perfectly clear when He prophesied and allowed the Romans to destroy the Temple. So “special protection of Israel” because of God seems to belie God’s own willingness to chastise them for their rejection of 1) the prophets, 2) Jesus Christ, 3) and God Himself as they believe Him to be.
As a matter of historical importance - as a matter of protecting the dignity of the resting place of so many of the Judeo-Christian saints, and the sacred soil upon which Jesus was crucified - yes, we should promote peace in the region. But our arm-chair foreign policy shouldn’t be based on the false belief that some of us need to compel the Jews to rebuild the Temple so Christ can return. To promote such an event is to promote the abomination that is prophesied by Our Lord in the Apocalypse, and that, I would presume, is a gravely sinful wish.

Let’s not forget that God has scattered the Jews multiple times, because they have turned away from Him. He scattered them when the Babylonians conquered them. He scattered them when the Romans conquered them. They returned 60 years ago, but Israel is predominantly a secular state of non-practicing Jews who are bound by cultural tradition and nothing more. In this respect, the Vatican views Israel as a geopolitical phenomenon. The only prophetic fulfillment remaining is the Return of Christ. It’s not up to the Catholic Church to defend the land of Israel if Israel acts in a morally unjust way. She is always going to side with the poor and the innocent, and self-determination for the segregated Palestinian population seems appropriate.

It’s not our job to speed up God’s timetable (if there were such a thing). What is ordained to come, will come, and we mock His wisdom by attempting to manufacture it. He wants us to help the poor and suffering, not root for their destruction. Both nations can live side by side. We shouldn’t prolong the suffering of the innocent over misguided exegesis of the end times.
 
Re: New Jerusalem on the Mediterranean

Jerusalem proper is NOT on the Mediterranean, as the map in the back of a Bible will show. It’s about 30 miles inland.

Rome, however, is on the Mediterranean coast of Italy.

The “New Jerusalem” is neither in Israel nor in Italy, biblically; it is the Kingdom of Heaven. “Jerusalem above is free.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Actually the article from America Magazine stated what you posted above.

Jim
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There are some differences: For example, the America article, for some unknown reason, said this:
Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, the Vatican’s secretary for relations with states, did not say whether the Vatican explicitly supported the Palestinians’ U.N. initiative. But he said…This tends to make a reader think that reading between the lines, there is implicit support for Abbas’ petition.

Reading Mamberti’s actual comments does not leave one with that impression. (Or at least it doesn’t leave me with that impression)
 
A psalm from David -

PSALM 122*
A Pilgrim’s Prayer for Jerusalem

1A song of ascents. Of David.

I rejoiced when they said to me,

“Let us go to the house of the LORD.”

2And now our feet are standing

within your gates, Jerusalem.

3Jerusalem, built as a city,

walled round about.*

4There the tribes go up,

the tribes of the LORD,

As it was decreed for Israel,

to give thanks to the name of the LORD.

5There are the thrones of justice,

the thrones of the house of David.

6**For the peace of Jerusalem pray:

“May those who love you prosper!**

7May peace be within your ramparts,

prosperity within your towers.”

8For the sake of my brothers and friends I say,

“Peace be with you.”

9For the sake of the house of the LORD, our God,

I pray for your good."
Code: 
Recommended as the Responsorial Psalm 
in a Holy Hour for Peace by the USCCB.

[nccbuscc.org/liturgy/holyhourpeace.shtml](http://nccbuscc.org/liturgy/holyhourpeace.shtml)
 
catharina said:
A psalm from David -

PSALM 122*
A Pilgrim’s Prayer for Jerusalem

1A song of ascents. Of David.

I rejoiced when they said to me,

“Let us go to the house of the LORD.”

2And now our feet are standing

within your gates, Jerusalem.

3Jerusalem, built as a city,

walled round about.*

4There the tribes go up,

the tribes of the LORD,

As it was decreed for Israel,

to give thanks to the name of the LORD.

5There are the thrones of justice,

the thrones of the house of David.

6**For the peace of Jerusalem pray:

“May those who love you prosper!**

7May peace be within your ramparts,

prosperity within your towers.”

8For the sake of my brothers and friends I say,

“Peace be with you.”

9For the sake of the house of the LORD, our God,

I pray for your good."
Code: 
Recommended as the Responsorial Psalm 
in a Holy Hour for Peace by the USCCB.

[nccbuscc.org/liturgy/holyhourpeace.shtml](http://nccbuscc.org/liturgy/holyhourpeace.shtml)
Click to expand...
Join us as we say A Prayer for Jerusalem
 
GEddie said:
Re: New Jerusalem on the Mediterranean

Jerusalem proper is NOT on the Mediterranean, as the map in the back of a Bible will show. It’s about 30 miles inland.

Rome, however, is on the Mediterranean coast of Italy.

The “New Jerusalem” is neither in Israel nor in Italy, biblically; it is the Kingdom of Heaven. “Jerusalem above is free.”

God Bless and ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
Rome is not on the Mediterranean.Rome sits inside the Aurelian Walls which in turn sit’s inside the county of Lazio. Rome has no coast.

Israel is unique in all the word for being the country for not having county boundaries.It is simply Judah or Israel. Towns,cities and places are defined by area as God forbid the Jews to or anyone else divide of his land. That means that All of Israel is on the Med.

You are correct in saying that the New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of Heaven.

Your Brother in Christ,
Richard.

Sun, 9 October 2011 = 11th of Tishrei, 5772
 
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