Vatican Survey on Summorum Pontificum Sent to the Bishops of the World

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Oh my. Would upvote this a million times if I could.

Also I have a near pathological detestation of terms such as ‘grow the Church’.
 
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I agree.
With all due respect, and acknowledging that some EF devotees are less than ‘welcoming’, it never ceases to amaze me that, considering we are told so often of how ‘few’ these. People are, they seem to cause so much worry and upset to the supposedly tolerant, ‘normal’, OF crowd. There seems to be such an element of detestation toward the EF (with a lot of psychological ‘projection’ of these feelings onto EF attendees and fans), and aside from the sock puppet accounts that usually miraculously arise just when there have been good and calm posts made by EF fans but then suddenly the loud and ‘hateful’ posters who supposedly embody the ‘REAL EF” people come charging in, to be met with gleeful, “YOU SEE?” From the OF posters who so love to disparage the EF. I’m sure pretty soon we will see posts from newbie “SSPXrocks” or “TLMrulz” posters who will somehow talk exactly as the OF posters claimed that “EF fans” do. How strange!

Yes, this thread will probably soon be locked and once more it will made manifest that EF bad, OF good, no NEED for EF, all the old ‘charges’ will be happily ‘confirmed’ and all the virtue-shamers confident that their nemesis will SURELY be gone leaving them ‘on the winning side’ and all their own visions of what the OF is ‘justified’.

After all, unless something like the EF is truly terrible, how can one ‘justify’ one’s dislike of it? There is a vested interest in finding the EF flawed, failed, and hateful for some. . .I hope not for as many as they might believe would feel that way though!
 
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Emeraldlady:
The best way forward I can see is to unite in a reform of the reformed 1962 Mass.
Why? The percentage of people who would want a kind of tridentinesque mass is very small. Maybe less than 1%.
I’m in a bit of a unique position I guess in that I’ve happily embraced the Mass that I’ve attended since the change in the late 60’s. However, 2 of my 3 kids who have remained practicing the faith, have a love of the regular Sunday Solemn Mass. My daughter did attend the Latin Mass for a couple of months but although she liked the Mass she didn’t gel with the anti Pope Francis crowd. We are a Francis lovin’ family! Or rather a proper papist family.

For people like my kids, I’d like to see more availability of the traditional rituals so they aren’t dragged into the anti Francis circles.
 
acknowledging that some EF devotees are less than ‘welcoming’,
Nonsense! I have been to EF Masses in several different locations and have never felt the slightest bit unwelcome. This is just more stereotyping designed to paint people in a bad light.

And if you really think about it for one moment - why would anyone at an EF Mass not want to welcome someone? They understand that EF Masses are rare, and growing support for EF Masses is the best way to see more of them.

Sorry, but I grow tired of vague attacks.
 
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“(e)nforcing it Church-wide” who, exactly, is proposing that? There are, what, 23 rites in the Western church plus the Anglican Use? As it relates to the topic of the OP, that the result of said survey would be “OK, only the EF now” is something that would never happen.

“in my part of the world people took to the vernacular” What percentage of Catholics attend Mass weekly in your part of the world?

I can agree that many things about VII are not clear, and I am not going to assert that the OF caused the drop in attendance at Mass, reduction in vocations, etc. by itself; nor do I think that a majority of the faithful were advocating for the changes ultimately implemented, not that that should be the be-all, end-all standard by which the Church should necessarily decide on various changes.

OT but related: can you explain Jansenism in your own words, or point me in the right direction online? Every time I try to look it up, I end up more confused, and you seem to have a good feel for it, so to speak. If you think this too off topic or you just do not have time/interest, no pressure.
 
No disrespect to a priest intended, but he is using strawman arguments - “I’m not accusing anyone here of this, but we have a real problem with X.” He never says, “In the last 6 months I have seen 4 cases where a stranger came in and was shunned.” My own experiences are a very small sample, but I have never felt unwelcome at an EF Mass that I have attended.
 
Hey I’m on your side here. I also personally have never witnessed anything but kindness, but even Father Z has mentioned that there are a few people who may be PERCEIVED at the least as being ‘unwelcoming’, especially if they are PERCEIVED by Joe Extrovert Hugsalot.

The whole problem here is that unless you allow for the ‘hypothetical’ that is hysterically claimed by the crowd whose preference for the OF has somehow led to a disdain and hostility to the EF (and that, while not a small number, is not by any means the attitude of the majority of people who prefer the OF). See, I can come out and say that and mean it. I don’t know WHY those few EF ‘disparagers’ cannot be equally unbiased; to them, ALL EF fans are closet haters.

Like you, I am saddened that all attempts at dialog ultimately dissolve into a “EF is BAD and they admit it, OF is perfect, and if you say anything less you are a hater, you’re hysterical, you’re a liar, if there WERE problems in some one area at one time they don’t exist anymore BLAH BLAH YELL CHEST THUMP surely if we are loud enough and proclaim our misunderstandings as TRUTH LONG enough your EF will die. DIE DIE DIE.
(Pardon the hyperbole).
 
Exactly. Plus, it is always the one argument that “Father Rippinger said in this interview sound bite’, never any mention from any other equally well known and respected experts who have a different opinion.

One of these days I have a good mind to write to Father Rippinger and say, “Dear Father, you may not be aware that your comments in interview X of date X have been taken out of context in various Catholic media to claim that you find ‘traditionalists’ (defined as ‘anybody who wants to attend an EF) problematic. Do you really feel that way? Can you tell us why?”

I’ll bet we would get one heck of a reply back on the order of, “I most certainly do not find the majority of people who would enjoy an EF problematic at ALL!!:
 
Thanks! I couldn’t resist that low-hanging fruit. 🙂
 
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No disrespect to a priest intended, but he is using strawman arguments - “I’m not accusing anyone here of this, but we have a real problem with X.” He never says, “In the last 6 months I have seen 4 cases where a stranger came in and was shunned.” My own experiences are a very small sample, but I have never felt unwelcome at an EF Mass that I have attended.
That’s Fr Ripperger, a traditionalist Priest with FSSP, expressing a worrisome trend among traditionalists. The particular problem he notes which matters to me is the Pope bashing. I really value Pope Francis eschatological guidance. We need to be preparing ourselves and our children for the coming again of Christ. What if when Christ comes again He is not ‘kosher’? He might present as what some would call a radical humanist like He did last time. I personally don’t want to be like the scribes and Pharisees once again. I want to be attentive and discerning to the Godly virtues that guided the first followers of Jesus.

That’s the main reason that I post here. I’m compelled to express a truth that others, new and younger Catholics can contemplate in their faith journey, against the false witness of others.
 
One of these days I have a good mind to write to Father Rippinger and say, “Dear Father, you may not be aware that your comments in interview X of date X have been taken out of context in various Catholic media to claim that you find ‘traditionalists’ (defined as ‘anybody who wants to attend an EF) problematic. Do you really feel that way? Can you tell us why?”
How can a long detailed recorded analysis be “taken out of context”? I’d really like to know what Fr responded to you so please present your objections to him. Personally I think that traditionalists have turned on him for not condemning Pope Francis. I think that is a big no no in traditionalist circles.
 
Well, at least you say ‘you think’, not “It is’.

I’m a ‘traditionalist’ and I haven’t turned on Father one bit; nor have I turned on Pope Francis. His poster as well as that of Pope St John Paul II and that of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI is and has been on the wall of my home.

What I find so very sad is that there seems to be (and this is not a personal ‘remark’) an attitude that paints a small group of Catholics as “anti-Francis’ and uses wild and incorrect stereotypes about that group to the extent that they seriously cannot seem to stop themselves from constantly ‘pointing the finger’ and virtue shaming and “Oh how glad I am to be a ‘plain old regular OF loving Catholic who follows all the real rules and loves God PROPERLY, not like those publi—I mean “TRADS” (cue loud hissing and shouts of “unclean”) who hate Pope Francis and cling to outdated unintelligible ‘rites’ instead of our incredible OF with all its options and cozy simple participatory joys’. “What do you MEAN, people who like the EF can like the OF too??? That isn’t part of the narrative! They can’t be appreciative of the OF but prefer the EF!!! If they prefer the one, they must hate the other!!! Because that’s what we feel, if we’re honest. We love the OF so we hate the EF! But we can’t say that because then we don’t sound all happy and tolerant. I know! We’ll accuse the EF people of that!!”

As I have said constantly, most EF fans like or even love the OF too. And most OF fans like the EF too. While we constantly hear of the supposed disparagement of the OF by EF fans, somehow the far greater number of OF fans who disparage the EF goes ‘unnoticed’, because either “EF did it first” (Ha) or “But WE, the OF fans, are in the RIGHT”.
 
Does anyone here remember the comments Pope Francis made to Fr. Spadaro about young people who prefer the Latin Mass?
Pope Francis told Father Spadaro he wonders why some young people, who were not raised with the old Latin Mass, nevertheless prefer it.

“And I ask myself: Why so much rigidity? Dig, dig, this rigidity always hides something, insecurity or even something else. Rigidity is defensive. True love is not rigid.”
https://www.catholicworldreport.com...t-the-old-latin-mass-rigidity-and-insecurity/
Now why in the world would you question why young people are attracted to the Latin Mass? And then, go on to say that they’re rigid??? It seems to me that these young Catholics have discovered something that they’ve never quite experienced before, and they’re captivated by it!

Now I don’t know about the rest of you, but those comments from Pope Francis are extremely disturbing to me! And that’s why I have a very, very bad feeling about this questionnaire the Pope sent out on the Extraordinary Form. It’s no wonder why so many people who attend the Latin Mass are very unnerved by this!
 
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This Father has put into words many things that were difficult to understand particularly here in CAF , and also among some persons one may know. It makes sense and he has a very calm tone to explain it.
And also for us not trads, interesting questions to ask oneself as individuals as well.
He is the first FSSP priest I’ ve ever had the chance to listen to .
Thank you.
 
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This Father has put into words many things that were difficult to understand particularly here in CAF , and also among some persons one may know. It makes sense and he has a very calm tone to explain it.
And also for us not trads, interesting questions to ask oneself as individuals as well.
He is the first FSSP priest I’ ve ever had the chance to listen to .
Thank you.
Graciew, My daughter Johanna, put me on to Fr Ripperger and several other orthodox internet Priests and theologians. She is unlike her mother, not caught up in too much of the debate stuff and I value her (name removed by moderator)ut for that. 😀
 
And you know what? It is moving from our comfort zones…
 
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expressing a worrisome trend among traditionalists.
While there may be some individuals who act this way, they are not the norm. I believe that accepting a stereotype as fact makes it a fact for those who want to denigrate us. This “trads are rude” mentality is right there with, “the Church is hostile to those with SSA.” I have never seen anyone mistreated in a church - for any reason , yet the bishops on the USCCB apologize for our behavior.
 
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