Vatican thanks Muslims for returning God to Europe

[AlanF]

if someone comes up with a religion that is not exactly catholic. That makes it Satan? That sounds crazy. Humans are inherently flawed. You don’t need Satan to make a mistake. People used to think the Earth was flat. Was that Satan’s doing too? I think not. Before the bases of faith were laid out, before official Judaism. People worshipped God in the best ways they could. The complex ideas about how God SHOULD be worshipped had not been established. The three major religions of the Holy land have the most in common. They are all convinced they are right and they all are in one way or another. But calling out Satan isn’t helping anything. Especially if the followers are making an effort to obey God the best they know how. The world is full of faiths much older than Christianity. What motivation will they have to convert considering theirs is older and they view Christianity as either a cult or pop religion. Zoroastaism is a good example of this. The Persions of Iran were monotheisitic long before Islam was brought into their country by the cultural revolution. Now Iran is labeled as a muslim country, but the people there still worship in their old ways and are deeply religious. I wouldn’t call it Satanic though. The Greek philosophers had Ideas about one god and Salvation as well. But unless you are concretely exposed to Catholic Christianity, you’re going to miss alot of stuff. Calling this ignorance Satanic, is like calling you Satanic for not knowing Algebra at five even though you knew all the basic arithmatic.
It’s better to belive in some god than no god at all. Otherwise you think you’e the hottest thing in the universe. It’s a matter of humility. And yes I do believe a bhuddist can go to heaven. It’s Silly to think they can’t. God grades us on our own ability to do what is good. It wouldn’t be fair to compare a boy raised in a monastery with a boy raised in the streets with little understanding of any faith. Now apostasy is an entirely diiferent thing altogether. But this isn’t the arguement is it?

It’s my opinion and it isn’t opposed to the catholic faith. It seems right to me though.
Think about it, 2000 years ago happened the greatest triumph against Satan ever in the world, Christ died for our sins and resurrected, defeating death and Satan. All of humanity now can gain salvation through baptism in Christ; Satan has to do something, he can’t let this happen, he has to get people away from Christ because he want’s them damned. 700 years later a “prophet” gets “revelations” from “God” which are written in the Koran, revelations which expressly deny the divinity of Christ and deny Him as saviour of mankind. Revelations than expressly say that the christians are wrong and muslims are not to convert to christianity or even converse with the christians (III:CXVIII, V:LI, V:LXXIII, VIII:XXXIX &c.).
Who would be revealing these “revelations” other than Satan? It certainly wouldn’t be God. Why would he intentionally draw people from Christ, the saviour of mankind and the way to salvation (John XIV:VI). And he’s been very successful, Islam is the second biggest religion, imagine how many people would be christians if Islam had never existed. The Devil’s plan was always to make people turn their back on God.

Islam is like apostity really because the Koran explains that christians accept Christ as saviour and our doctrine of the Trinity, and it makes them reject it. They no longer even have invincible ignorance.

 

[AlanF]

I would strongly suggest that you read some theological works on ecclesiaology, including those of Bonaventure, Robert Bellarmine, Therese of Liseux, Mother Teresa, John XXIII, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. You may get a better grasp of how the Church views salvation for those outside of the Catholic faith.

Good luck to you.

Fraternally,

JR

I know quite well the teachings of the Church on this matter, the doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. Outside the Church there is not salvation, anyone who rejects Christ goes to Hell. Although those with invincible ignorance of Christ, as I did say in another post, who do still try to find God and follow the Natural Law possibly can gain salvation.

The teaching of the Church - ignoring inincible ignorance - is told in the Papal Bull by Pope Boniface VIII: Unam Sanctam.

 

[AlanF]

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: ‘One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,’ and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.

We venerate this Church as one, the Lord having said by the mouth of the prophet: ‘Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword and my only one from the hand of the dog.’ [Ps 21:20] He has prayed for his soul, that is for himself, heart and body; and this body, that is to say, the Church, He has called one because of the unity of the Spouse, of the faith, of the sacraments, and of the charity of the Church. This is the tunic of the Lord, the seamless tunic, which was not rent but which was cast by lot [Jn 19:23-24]. Therefore, of the one and only Church there is one body and one head, not two heads like a monster; that is, Christ and the Vicar of Christ, Peter and the successor of Peter, since the Lord speaking to Peter Himself said: ‘Feed my sheep’ [Jn 21:17], meaning, my sheep in general, not these, nor those in particular, whence we understand that He entrusted all to him [Peter]. Therefore, if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John ‘there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.’ We are informed by the texts of the gospels that in this Church and in its power are two swords; namely, the spiritual and the temporal. For when the Apostles say: ‘Behold, here are two swords’ [Lk 22:38] that is to say, in the Church, since the Apostles were speaking, the Lord did not reply that there were too many, but sufficient. Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: ‘Put up thy sword into thy scabbard’ [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered for the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest.

However, one sword ought to be subordinated to the other and temporal authority, subjected to spiritual power. For since the Apostle said: ‘There is no power except from God and the things that are, are ordained of God’ [Rom 13:1-2], but they would not be ordained if one sword were not subordinated to the other and if the inferior one, as it were, were not led upwards by the other.

For, according to the Blessed Dionysius, it is a law of the divinity that the lowest things reach the highest place by intermediaries. Then, according to the order of the universe, all things are not led back to order equally and immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary, and the inferior by the superior. Hence we must recognize the more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and in nobility any temporal power whatever, as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment, benediction, and consecration of the tithes, but the acceptance of power itself and by the government even of things. For with truth as our witness, it belongs to spiritual power to establish the terrestrial power and to pass judgement if it has not been good. Thus is accomplished the prophecy of Jeremias concerning the Church and the ecclesiastical power: ‘Behold to-day I have placed you over nations, and over kingdoms’ and the rest. Therefore, if the terrestrial power err, it will be judged by the spiritual power; but if a minor spiritual power err, it will be judged by a superior spiritual power; but if the highest power of all err, it can be judged only by God, and not by man, according to the testimony of the Apostle: ‘The spiritual man judgeth of all things and he himself is judged by no man’ [1 Cor 2:15]. This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, ‘Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven’ etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2], unless he invent like Manicheus two beginnings, which is false and judged by us heretical, since according to the testimony of Moses, it is not in the beginnings but in the beginning that God created heaven and earth [Gen 1:1]. Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Pope Boniface VIII: Unam Sanctam (1302)​

 

[dotcomrefugee]

Lulz rite here.

You know that God and Allah are one and the same, right?

 

[AlanF]

Lulz rite here.

You know that God and Allah are one and the same, right?

The god of the muslims is not Christ though, and there’s the problem.

 

[pnewton]

They no longer even have invincible ignorance.

It can be, but it doesn’t have to be. We must not cross the line of judging others with the judgement reserved to Christ alone. The Church also takes care not to condemn anyone specifically to hell as a matter of faith. The “invincible” part of ignorance is God’s call, not ours.

The god of the muslims is not Christ though, and there’s the problem.

There we disagree, along with others who have posted here. The God they worship is Christ, the Holy Spirt and the Father, too. It is just that they are ignorant of this nature of God.

 

[Holly3278]

You know, I thought that the Vatican has said numerous times that Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship?

 

[AlanF]

It can be, but it doesn’t have to be. We must not cross the line of judging others with the judgement reserved to Christ alone. The Church also takes care not to condemn anyone specifically to hell as a matter of faith. The “invincible” part of ignorance is God’s call, not ours.

Perhaps some can still have invincible ignorance, more likely those who haven’t read the Koran, but it is also not our place to judge that they do have invincible ignorance. we must sill evangelise Christ to them, to not do so would risk their salvation. Remember it is probably quite unlikely for the invincibly ignorant to gain salvation, they have to actively seek the truth of God and follow the natural law, which is imprinted on the consciences of all humans.

There we disagree, along with others who have posted here. The God they worship is Christ, the Holy Spirt and the Father, too. It is just that they are ignorant of this nature of God.

You know, I thought that the Vatican has said numerous times that Muslims worship the same God of Abraham that we worship?

God the Father they may well worship, just like the Jews, but not Christ, they do not accept Christ as their Lord and saviour and they reject the Holy Trinity. Someone who definitively rejects christianity has not invincible ignorance because they have come accross christianity and rejected it

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.59 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.60 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.61 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Catechism of the Catholic Church​

 

[Holly3278]

God the Father they may well worship, just like the Jews, but not Christ, they do not accept Christ as their Lord and saviour and they reject the Holy Trinity. Someone who definitively rejects christianity has not invincible ignorance because they have come accross christianity and rejected it

Oh, I know that they do not worship Jesus Christ who is God. So in a sense, they do not worship the same God as us. But in a sense, they do because they do worship God the Father.

 

[AlanF]

Oh, I know that they do not worship Jesus Christ who is God. So in a sense, they do not worship the same God as us. But in a sense, they do because they do worship God the Father.

Yes, in a sense they worship God the Father, I said that before.

But, they don’t accept Christ, which is the improtant thing, since He’s our saviour and the mediator of the New Covenant.

 

[DaveBj]

Lulz rite here.

You know that God and Allah are one and the same, right?

No, they are not.

I’ll give the Muslims credit for believing that they are the same deity, but they are not.

The characteristics of Allah, as revealed in the Qur’an, are very different, sometimes 180 degrees different, from the characteristics of God as revealed in the Bible.

DaveBj

 

[JReducation]

No, they are not.

I’ll give the Muslims credit for believing that they are the same deity, but they are not.

The characteristics of Allah, as revealed in the Qur’an, are very different, sometimes 180 degrees different, from the characteristics of God as revealed in the Bible.

DaveBj

The Church has already stated that the God of the Jews, the God of Muslims and the God of Christians is the same true God. I’m not sure why this is being punted about. Why not take it up with Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI who created the Vatican Commision on Islam and who is has stated to the Muslims directly that they DO in fact worship the God of Abraham who is the God of Jesus Christ? Why debate this with each other?

As to the Trinity. Systematic theology tells you that if you worship the God-head, you worship the Trinity, even though you may not acknowledge it. There is only one God and the Trinity subsists in God. The three persons of the Trinity are different in their personhood, not in their nature. To worship the Divine Nature is to worhip The Trinitarian God. We believe that the persons in the Trinity procede from each other. Whoever worships God, knowingly or unknowingly worships the persons who procede within God. You cannot worship one person and not the other two, as they are inseparable in their divine substance, essence and nature. There are three persons, not three deities.

The fact that someone has heard about Christianity or studied it, does not make them culpable for not being Christian. To be culpable one must knowingly and freely choose to reject what one believes to be true. The key word here is believe. If a Muslim or a Jew believes in good conscience that Christianity is contrary to God’s will, he has a moral obliation to fulfill God’s will as he understands it, not as we dictate it to him. We can only inform, not convince. Conviction is the work of Grace. We will never convince the Muslims or the Jews by pointing the finger at them and telling them that they are damned. That’s intimidating, which is contrary to Church teaching on religious freedom.

The Church has already stated that Jesus Christ uses other faiths as a means of salvation in some mysterious way that is outside of our knowledge. In fact, the dogma on salvation only through Christ is fulfilled, because it is Christ who does the saving.

Salvation through the Church is also fulfilled, because as John Paul II wrote, Christ saves through those elements of the Catholic faith that are found in other faiths. Therefore, Christ saves throught the Church, which is present in other faiths, even though imperfectly and unbeknownst to those who are members of other faiths.

The goal of the Church is to bring all people into a perfect communion with Christ. That includes Catholics. Proportionately, there is probably an equal number of Catholics that is as imperfectly united to the Church as there are people of other faiths. Good evangelization is for everyone.

Everything that the Church has taught for centuries on salvation through Christ and the Church has been very well clarified by John Paul II in UT UNUM SINT, without contradicting Traditon and dogma. The problem is that the average lay person is not well versed in systematic theology and much less in soteriology, because these are disciplines that are taught to those who study very advanced levels of philosophy and theology. Most of us are trained in apologetics, which is a very basic form of theology for discussing and answering simple questions about dogma. Ut Unum Sint is written using systematic theology, soteriology, advanced logic and epistomology to clarify the Church’s traditional teaching. It was written for Bishops. All of whom have Doctorates in Theology. It was not written for the lay person.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[pnewton]

The Church has already stated that the God of the Jews, the God of Muslims and the God of Christians is the same true God. I’m not sure why this is being punted about. Why not take it up with Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI who created the Vatican Commision on Islam and who is has stated to the Muslims directly that they DO in fact worship the God of Abraham who is the God of Jesus Christ? Why debate this with each other?

Perhaps we need to leave it at this. Rome has spoken. Believe it. Don’t believe it. The Catholic position is clear.

 

[JReducation]

Perhaps we need to leave it at this. Rome has spoken. Believe it. Don’t believe it. The Catholic position is clear.

The Vatican’s statement itself which thanks Islam for bringing God back into the open is an endorsement of Islam’s faith in the same God as the Christians and Jews.

There was nothing to debate except for those who want to say that the Vatican is wrong and they’re right.

I for one do not intend to go there on this one. Five popes can’t be wrong on the same point.

I agree with you, let this subject die here.

Fraternally,

JR

 

[KathleenElsie]

The Vatican’s statement itself which thanks Islam for bringing God back into the open is an endorsement of Islam’s faith in the same God as the Christians and Jews.

There was nothing to debate except for those who want to say that the Vatican is wrong and they’re right.

I for one do not intend to go there on this one. Five popes can’t be wrong on the same point.

I agree with you, let this subject die here.

Fraternally,

JR

I just re-read the OP and the two articles. It seems to me that this can be taken two ways.

One way is to say that because the Muslims are faithful others see their faithfulness and are turning to God also.

The other is to say that many Christians and Jews are feeling (rightly or wrongly I don’t know) that Muslims are overtaking the culture and the rise in violence as a wake up call to return to God.

The one way is positive and the other is negative. Only those now seeking God know which it is for them personally.

 

[JReducation]

I just re-read the OP and the two articles. It seems to me that this can be taken two ways.

One way is to say that because the Muslims are faithful others see their faithfulness and are turning to God also.

The other is to say that many Christians and Jews are feeling (rightly or wrongly I don’t know) that Muslims are overtaking the culture and the rise in violence as a wake up call to return to God.

The one way is positive and the other is negative. Only those now seeking God know which it is for them personally.

One has to take the news article in the same context with other statements made by the Vatican about Islam and made by the CCC.

This is not worth debating.

JR

 

[DaveBj]

The Church has already stated that the God of the Jews, the God of Muslims and the God of Christians is the same true God. I’m not sure why this is being punted about. Why not take it up with Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI who created the Vatican Commision on Islam and who is has stated to the Muslims directly that they DO in fact worship the God of Abraham who is the God of Jesus Christ? Why debate this with each other?

snip

Popes can be and have been wrong. None of these are ex-cathedra statements, so they, also, can be wrong, and if they say that Allah = JHWH, then they are wrong.

I will do my research, and present my findings at a future date in a new thread. Y’all can then draw your own conclusions.

DaveBj

 

[redhen]

What was said:

Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, head of the Catholic Church’s department for interfaith contacts, said religion was now talked and written about more than ever before in today’s Europe.
‘It’s thanks to the Muslims,’ he said in a speech printed in Friday’s L’Osservatore Romano, the official daily of the Vatican.
‘Muslims, having become a significant minority in Europe, were the ones who demanded space for God in society.’

Not for long. “What’s the Muslim population of Rotterdam? Forty percent. The most popular boy’s name in Belgium? Mohammed. In Amsterdam? Mohammed. In Malmö, Sweden? Mohammed. In 2005 it was the fifth most popular baby boy’s name in the United Kingdom.” From Mark Steyn’s* American Alone* 2006, Regnery Publishing Inc., Washington, D.C.

So, when the increasing Muslim populations diligently go their mosques five times a day to pray, while Christian churches in Europe are being deserted. How is this helpful?

 

[Kaninchen]

Not for long. “What’s the Muslim population of Rotterdam? Forty percent. The most popular boy’s name in Belgium? Mohammed. In Amsterdam? Mohammed. In Malmö, Sweden? Mohammed. In 2005 it was the fifth most popular baby boy’s name in the United Kingdom.” From Mark Steyn’s* American Alone* 2006, Regnery Publishing Inc., Washington, D.C.

So, when the increasing Muslim populations diligently go their mosques five times a day to pray, while Christian churches in Europe are being deserted. How is this helpful?

Yes, Muslims show an awful lack of imagination in the choice of boys’ names.

 

[redhen]

Yes, Muslims show an awful lack of imagination in the choice of boys’ names.

Whew, I’m glad that’s all we have to worry about then, their lack of imagination when naming their baby boys.

Meanwhile, speaking of Malmo, seems there are some youths who continue to riot; and the fire department refuses to go in to put out fires without an armed escort. Those darn kids.

news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//081219/ids_photos_wl/r541482856.jpg/