Vatican to debate teachings on divorce, birth control, gay unions

[McCall1981]

So, have you read the Preparatory Document, or not?

Yes, I have. I do think it is somewhat encouraging, but since the time it came out, Card. Kasper has presented his proposals, Pope Francis has gushed over Kasper’s theology, and now Card Baldiserri (the Sec General of the Synod) has made some rather unsettling comments.

To be fair, some good things have happened as well, but things seem very unclear right now. My hope is that the soon-to-released Synod document will clear some things up (although, to be honest, I think it will probably be rather vague and not answer the questions many of us want answered)

 

[po18guy]

Yes I am scared (which i think is reasonable) that the Church would fall into error regarding these topics. I know it can’t, but it’s still a valid fear… I just pray that they hold true to what we believe and don’t let the powers of evil change them.

If you are bothered by anxiety, that is a possibility that is distinctly different from the impossibility of the Church falling into error.

Disconnect from any and all pagan media. Those fears will melt away.

 

[JimG]

The title of the document makes pretty clear what needs to be addressed: “Pastoral Challenges to the family in the context of evangelization.” All the current maladies are mentioned, such as cohabitation, divorce, same sex marriage, and others. And I’m glad that this one also got a mention: “a culture of non-commitment and a presumption that the marriage bond can be temporary.”

Surely no one can deny that the current state of the family desperately needs the Church’s attention and is a pastoral challenge.

 

[FrDavid96]

Yes, I have. I do think it is somewhat encouraging, but since the time it came out, Card. Kasper has presented his proposals, Pope Francis has gushed over Kasper’s theology, and now Card Baldiserri (the Sec General of the Synod) has made some rather unsettling comments.

To be fair, some good things have happened as well, but things seem very unclear right now. My hope is that the soon-to-released Synod document will clear some things up (although, to be honest, I think it will probably be rather vague and not answer the questions many of us want answered)

I’ve read the comments about Cardinal B— on the internet as well.

It comes down to “we report that someone else reports that someone else reports that somebody said that the Cardinal said something like this…”

Wow! Earth shattering! :newidea:

For example:

The Register reports that the Standard reports that the Tertio reports that the Cardinal told the interviewer…

Yes, that’s exactly how the article reads. I’m dead serious here. That’s exactly what it says. I’m going to quote the article at the end of my post just to prove the point.

At this point, the good Cardinal might have been talking about his favorite place to get a cappuccino, for all anyone knows.

Based on what we actually read in the Preparatory Document, the teachings of the Church are not up for debate. Those teachings are stated and summarized.

The next thing we read is a series of questions being asked of the bishops about the situations in their own parts of the world.

There is absolutely nothing in the document that even remotely suggests that the Church is considering changing any teaching, and certainly not changing anything on the level of doctrine. What the document IS asking is “how can we teach those doctrines to the world today?”

Here’s a quote from the Preparatory Document:
The following series of questions allows the particular Churches to participate actively in the preparation of the Extraordinary Synod, whose purpose is to proclaim the Gospel in the context of the pastoral challenges facing the family today.

Again, the purpose of the synod is to proclaim the Gospel! There’s nothing in there about changing any doctrine.

This is the exact quote from the Register: The red text is my editing.

According to the Belgian newspaper De Standaard, Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri says it is time to update Church marriage doctrine, for example in connection with divorce, the situation of divorcees and people who are in civil partnerships. His comments will appear in an exclusive interview with the Christian weekly magazine Tertio, published on Wednesday.
ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/sec.-general-of-synod-wants-change-in-churchs-teaching-on-marriage

 

[FollowChrist34]

Yes, I have. I do think it is somewhat encouraging, but since the time it came out, Card. Kasper has presented his proposals, Pope Francis has gushed over Kasper’s theology, and now Card Baldiserri (the Sec General of the Synod) has made some rather unsettling comments.

To be fair, some good things have happened as well, but things seem very unclear right now. My hope is that the soon-to-released Synod document will clear some things up (although, to be honest, I think it will probably be rather vague and not answer the questions many of us want answered)

Yes, I am nervous too. I’ve read the Bishops’ document. It’s painfully clear Cardinal Kasper is up to something far and away different from the intent of the Bishops and I frankly don’t think anyone can seriously say that they have a good read on what the Pope will do. The pressure from the dissenters is intense. Right now, both sides are trying to convince themselves they are right and they will prevail.

It really is causing ruckus throughout the Church. And to what end? What if nothing changes? What if it does? Will the two sides reconcile? It would be weird not to be nervous, don’t you think?

 

[McCall1981]

Yes, I am nervous too. I’ve read the Bishops’ document. It’s painfully clear Cardinal Kasper is up to something far and away different from the intent of the Bishops and I frankly don’t think anyone can seriously say that they have a good read on what the Pope will do. The pressure from the dissenters is intense. Right now, both sides are trying to convince themselves they are right and they will prevail.

It really is causing ruckus throughout the Church. And to what end? What if nothing changes? What if it does? Will the two sides reconcile?** It would be weird not to be nervous, don’t you think?**

Ha, good point.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Instead of wondering about it, why not read what the Church is publicly saying about it?

The answer is clear enough if you read the Preparatory Document.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20131105_iii-assemblea-sinodo-vescovi_en.html

It’s more fun for liberals and secularists to read newspaper and left-wing blog headlines.

It fits their narrow vision that the world will automatically succumb to progressive values, when in fact a sharp reverse is in order.

These individuals lack a fundamental understanding of how human nature, civilization and natural law work.

 

[McCall1981]

For reference, here is the section of Card Baldisseri’s interview with Tertio that has been made public (suppossedly the rest will be published soon):

In the West many expect more openness on sexual morality, including the attitude towards remarried divorcees. Do you expect there to be any changes?

“The questionnaire covered many topics. Among them the topic of sexual morality, but also the situation of divorcees and people who have remarried civilly. …] Pope John Paul II’s Familiaris consortio from 1981 was the last major document in the past thirty years about this topic. The Church is not timeless; she exists amid the vicissitudes of history and the Gospel must be known and experienced by the people of today. The message must be delivered in the present, with all respect for the integrity of whoever receives it. We now face two Synods to discuss this complex topic of the family, and I believe that this dynamic in two movements will allow us to give a more appropriate response to the expectations of the people.”

How can a greater balance be reached in the management of the Church, between the Curia and the world Church, between centralisation and local autonomy?

“That is the great question that Pope Francis knows himself to be confronted with, in the face of renewal and reform. According to him the bishops at the Conclave gave him that task. Synodality would have to guarantee decentralisation and more attention for the local churches, and also greater involvement of all bishops in the world with evangelisation. As head of the college of bishops the Pope must lead that process. The Council of eight cardinals is working towards a reform of the Curia and the central services of the Church.”

incaelo.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/baldisseris-focus-not-dogmatic-but-pastoral/

 

[Yause]

Based on what we actually read in the Preparatory Document, the teachings of the Church are not up for debate. Those teachings are stated and summarized.

The teachings and values aren’t up for debate. However, the matter of pastoral solutions (i.e. policy) is a big question mark. For instance, Eastern Orthodoxy has clear teachings on the permanence of marriage, yet their churches have devised policies that allow for a second marriage while stressing that it’s a special dispensation following grave sin (and despite theological differences between the churches, this point is indeed relevant. See here).

We should probably expect the next synod to examine and debate on some of these solutions. To me, it’s quite striking that recent commentary has stressed non-negotiable values while simultaneously voicing a desire for new approaches to old problems.

 

[Tomdstone]

No worries, the Church will never change her teachings on these matters. She has been promised the protection of the Holy Spirit, so she will never falter from the Truth.

Has the Catholic Church changed its teaching on torture or on capital punishment or on the right of clergy to own slaves?

 

[NekoNecro]

Has the Catholic Church changed its teaching on torture or on capital punishment or on the right of clergy to own slaves?

Capital Punishment and the death penalty are still fair game in the Church, both being intrenched in Aqunias and Augustine’s theologies. I believe slavery was forbidden during Vatican II, and while there were a few pronouncements during the 1800’s against slavery they were actually against speaking favorably of the slave trade, not against actually participating in it (The pre-schism church had stated firmly that to speak for abolition was anathama).

It does change (like in 1945 when it decided that women having the vote wasn’t a sin), but only when it personally benefits from doing so (in that case, a huge percentage of female voters were practicing Catholics moreso than the male population in Italy especially.

 

[McCall1981]

The only issue that really concerns me for the upcoming Synod is “communion for the divorced/remarried”.

Here is an interesting blog post from Simon Dodd on this topic:

simondodd.org/blog/?p=1332

 

[FrDavid96]

The only issue that really concerns me for the upcoming Synod is “communion for the divorced/remarried”.

Here is an interesting blog post from Simon Dodd on this topic:

simondodd.org/blog/?p=1332

Since the Preparatory Document does not mention that there will be any debate on Communion for the divorced/remarried, on what exactly do you base your concern?

 

[TMC]

The only issue that really concerns me for the upcoming Synod is “communion for the divorced/remarried”.

Here is an interesting blog post from Simon Dodd on this topic:

simondodd.org/blog/?p=1332

Since the Preparatory Document does not mention that there will be any debate on Communion for the divorced/remarried, on what exactly do you base your concern?

It seems to me that participants in the Synod have said publically that this is one of the issues to be discussed. But, as I posted before, I don’t see why this should be cause for concern.

 

[McCall1981]

Since the Preparatory Document does not mention that there will be any debate on Communion for the divorced/remarried, on what exactly do you base your concern?

Well, Pope Francis specifically invited Card. Kasper (the most prominent proponent of giving communion to the divorced/remarried in the Church) to be the one and only speaker at the opening meeting/consistory of the Synod. During his talk, Kasper explicitly proposed a change to the teaching. After the talk, Francis effusively praised Kasper’s theology.

Since that time, Francis may (or may not) have told a remarried woman in Argentina that she could go to communion. Regardless of what was said on the phone, no Vatican representative has even denied that the Pope said this, or re-affirmed the Church’s teaching.

Card’s Kasper and Marx have explicitly said that they favor a change. Marx was promoted by Francis to the Council of Cardinals, while Kasper was selected to speak at the consistory.

Card’s Maradiaga and Baldiserri have also said that they are open to discuss the issue and have said that they want changes of some kind. Maradiaga has been promoted to head of the Council of Cardinals, and Baldiserri was promoted to the rank of Cardinal, and General Secretary of Synod.

The past several months have also seen rabid speculation in Catholic and mainstream media on the subject, as well as frighteningly blunt and public confrontations between Cardinals over this issue, again without any clarification from the Pope or Vatican.

I’m not saying there are no hopeful points, there certainly are (like Card Muller’s re-affirmations of the teaching, Pope Francis made a good comment recently on the indissolubility of marriage, the Cardinals seemed opposed to Kasper’s proposals). But I think the above reasons are more than enough to be greatly concerned.

 

[shelby_sun]

The journalist writes about this because they are the reporter stationed in the Vatican, they have to come up with something newsy to write about this week that is happening there to earn their wage, the upcoming discussion is a news peg to write about, and the LA Times Editor most likely said, “give me 500 words on what might happen at the upcoming meeting” because they have to fill space. That is all.

The reporter’s next challenge was to write about meeting’s possibilities in a way that would make the readers intrigued, even if there are NO possibilities for “change”.
Else, all they could write about to fill the space is, “they will meet to discuss this. Nothing will change.”
His job is to explore thinking on this.
If a Vatican reporter was only to write about church teachings, they would not have a Vatican reporter.

I think, in fact, the Pope intends to make some changes.
Not doctrinal changes, of course. But small ones. The world has changed too much and if there is not some new thinking or flexibility, the reeds will break.
The pope has already shown the kind of changes he intends–when he walked out on the balcony and was not all trussed up…when he washed the feet of a Muslim woman in a detention center…when he gives an impromptu press conference in a plane and answers any questions they want to ask…when he fires the bank guys and starts to clean house at the Vatican.
Of course he intends for some changes.
Perhaps they will discuss the idea of married priests–he did say that recently. And in fact, that is something that CAN be changed.

On the topics above, no doctrinal changes. But they will obviously discuss how to survive in a changing world and what can be done to reach out to Catholics who believe in divorce, contraception, and same sex marriage–and there are many. As a smart man, he must know that if some understanding between everyone is not met, the Catholic church will lose millions of followers and it will only increase in the next generation.
He knows something has to be done.
What, exactly, will be discussed it seems.

.

I think you are right. There is no reason to have a meeting to talk about things that cannot be changed so they must be meeting about those things that can be changed. As a Jesuit, he is realistic enough to know the Church is losing people every year and things need to happen to keep people in the Church and help people want to come back. what will happen I have no idea.

Most of the women I know go to Church every Sunday and receive communion even though they are an birth control and many have their daughters on it also. They don’t think twice about it. Luckily for the Church they don’t leave because not only would the Church lose many, many more families, they would also lose money and volunteers. They feel that issue is between them and God, and ultimately it is.

 

[FrDavid96]

Dear Friends

Take your pick. Please choose wisely.

Rumors. Speculation. Innuendo. Internet blogs. Gossip. Scuttlebutt. Hearsay.
(no links necessary, use your favorite search engine)

Or

III EXTRAORDINARY GENERAL ASSEMBLY
PASTORAL CHALLENGES TO THE FAMILY
IN THE CONTEXT OF EVANGELIZATION
Preparatory Document
Vatican City
2013
vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20131105_iii-assemblea-sinodo-vescovi_en.html

 

[McCall1981]

I think you are right. There is no reason to have a meeting to talk about things that cannot be changed so they must be meeting about those things that can be changed. As a Jesuit, he is realistic enough to know the Church is losing people every year and things need to happen to keep people in the Church and help people want to come back. what will happen I have no idea.

Most of the women I know go to Church every Sunday and receive communion even though they are an birth control and many have their daughters on it also. They don’t think twice about it. Luckily for the Church they don’t leave because not only would the Church lose many, many more families, they would also lose money and volunteers. They feel that issue is between them and God, and ultimately it is.

I think there can be a reason for meeting about issues that can’t change.

For instance, they might talk about abortion, not in the sense of discussing whether or not the Church should be opposed to abortion, but in the sense of discussing the best ways to communicate the Church’s teachings, the best pastoral programs for women that have had abortions, etc, etc. So they would not be debating the teaching on abortion, but rather discussing the topic from an administrative/pastoral perspective.

This is exactly what I hope is happening with the communion issue. If the discussion is around administrative/pastoral changes, then fine. The problem is that they seem (to me others who are worried) to be debating the teaching itself, which is frightening.

 

[Tigg]

Contraception, cohabitation, divorce, remarriage and same-sex unions: They’re issues that pain and puzzle Roman Catholics who want to be true to both their church and themselves.

Ha ha…The very first sentence should be our clue as to the agenda of this article…Catholics who want to be true to themselves? What a typical and materialistic slant meant to mock the spiritual realm and encourage the rebellious!

 

[Tigg]

I don’t understand why some Catholics seem so anxious that the Church may change some of its disciplines or even some if its teachings. For example, the Church can change the way the Church ministers to the divorced without changing the teachings on marriage.

More fundamentally, the Church’s teachings on most things could conceivable change. There are few truly immutable teachings, and the Church has changed its teachings on many things in various ways through the ages. The Church should always be striving to have the best possible practices, disciplines and teachings. Part of that may entail some changes from time to time. That is what has happened in the past, and what will happen in the future. No reason to treat every little change like its the end of Catholicism.

Your comments are very misleading. Disciplines can change, but teaching does **not **“change.’”

Development of doctrine never means abandonment of doctrine or the substitution of the new for the old; it never means that what the Church once firmly assents to, it will ever deny. Genuine development of doctrine always proceeds along consistent lines; it is growth from partial to fuller vision, so that what has been believed continues to be believed, though its depths and consequences are more and more fully realized. This growth of understanding, knowledge and wisdom is always to be in the same doctrine, the same meaning and in the same sense.

~ The Teaching of Christ Catechism ~

But there’s more……we are speaking about divine law which comes directly from Christ:

No Pope, no Council, no Synod, no priest in any confessional—no one has any right or capacity to set aside Divine Law [regarding divorce and remarriage.] Those who argue that the Church should change her teaching on this matter are asking the Church to do something she cannot do. They are asking her to overrule Jesus. Appeals to culture, pointing out what certain Protestant denominations do or don’t do, even the practice of the Orthodox churches—none of these can or should overrule the stance of the Roman Catholic Church. We have held, properly, that Jesus’ teaching on the matter cannot be set aside by formulas, human rituals, human judges, human clerics, or any number of euphemisms.
~ Msgr. Charles Pope ~