Vatican to debate teachings on divorce, birth control, gay unions

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I agree this far:
For example, the Church can change the way the Church ministers to the divorced without changing the teachings on marriage.
I’d be cautious from here:
More fundamentally, the Church’s teachings on most things could conceivable change. There are few truly immutable teachings, and the Church has changed its teachings on many things in various ways through the ages. The Church should always be striving to have the best possible practices, disciplines and teachings.
How do we determine “best possible practices, disciplines and teachings”? By the standpoint of what will fill the pews, or what is consistent with Scripture and the teachings of the Early Christian Fathers? It’s a bit unfortunate that secular commentary lumps together extraordinarily diverse topics from married priests to official recognition of gay marriages to lifting the proscription on abortion and contraception, because these are vastly different challenges, theologically, doctrinally and pastorally. They also make the Church look more ready to change than she is, while ignoring those teachings which are truly immutable (the nature of Christ, the Trinity, the Eucharist, Sacramental Theology, Eschatology, Soteriology, the Magisterium, etc.)

I could see a future for married priests, given that a channel exists today through which married Anglican priests can become Catholic priests (though that remains extraordinary in circumstance, and you don’t see ordained, married evangelical ministers such as Scott Hahn being ordained as priests). If that reform is granted, I think it would have nothing to do with the Church somehow softening its position on gay marriage, the legitimacy of homosexual relationships or the allowance of birth control or abortion. But considering these as a lump item, as the press often does (for all the reasons DaddyGirl notes), extends the impression that these younger bishops will embrace the lead of this reform-minded Pope and make the Church conform to what Americans think it ought to.
 
What leads you to the conclusion that:
Capital Punishment and the death penalty are still fair game in the Church, both being intrenched in Aqunias and Augustine’s theologies.
What is insufficient in the Church’s current teaching, or in its grounding of this teaching in Aquinas, Augustine and others (including St. John Paul II), to merit its re-assessment?

Aquinas wrote on the divine nature of Christ and the extension of that divine nature to we who are partakers of the Body of Christ - the Catechism even cites his writings several times on this. Does that mean the nature of Christ is up for discussion, merely because Aquinas contributed to it? The Church revisits questions as it needs to, when the teaching is found to be wrong or incomplete (say, Limbo). The Church revisits the pastoral approach - the how of its teaching - as it needs to. The point of being relevant isn’t to acquiesce to the world’s desires, especially for license in sin, forgiveness without repentance, or the disrespecting of vulnerable life. The point of being relevant is to approach people where they are and call them out of sin. This is why Jesus ate with the tax collectors, not to give approval to their overcharging, but to show them God’s love for them and call them to repentance. We ought to emulate the same approach.
I believe slavery was forbidden during Vatican II, and while there were a few pronouncements during the 1800’s against slavery they were actually against speaking favorably of the slave trade, not against actually participating in it (The pre-schism church had stated firmly that to speak for abolition was anathama).
Couple errors here. The Catechism in its brief treatment of actual slavery (CCC 2414) references the text of Philemon, in which Paul urges Onesimus to free Philemon from slavery, thus stating that the intention of the Church in history is against slavery, even while individual pronouncements have not always lurched monolithically towards this end. But the abolition movement has always been strong in the Church. The Mercedarian order, founded in the 13th century, had the initial intent of ransoming and freeing Christian slave. The 16th century Pope Paul III forbade enslaving Native Americans in Sublimus Dei. Even where slavery remained allowed, it was refined and restricted over time - disallowing enslavement of people taken in unjust wars, or maltreatment of slaves - with the most notable exceptions being slavery allowed for purposes of punishment (such as of heretics, schismatics, and pointedly Henry VIII). However, institutional slavery for economic gain (such as chattel slavery as practiced in the US until the mid-19th century) was utterly abolished in 1839 by In Supremo Apostolatus, issued by Pope Gregory XVI. So while the US was still allowing the sale of men and women as property, the Church had already forbidden it.
It does change (like in 1945 when it decided that women having the vote wasn’t a sin), but only when it personally benefits from doing so (in that case, a huge percentage of female voters were practicing Catholics moreso than the male population in Italy especially.
I find no references to the Church declaring in 1945 it to not be a sin for women to vote. I do see that Italy allowed women’s suffrage in 1946 - during a time when the Vatican exerted very little political authority over the country. That said, I do see the Catholic Encyclopedia’s very confusing article on women’s rights somehow calling women’s suffrage an assault on marriage as well as declaring that “Catholic women will know what to do with the right to vote”. The Church’s record on women’s suffrage straddles both sides, with notably vehement comments by Pope Pius IX and Pius X, but by the time suffrage was largely won in the mid-20th century, the Church had already moved to expressing profound support. Writing in 1963’s Pacem in Terris, Pope John XXIII described women’s political involvement as “the rights and duties which belong to them as human persons” and praised such advances as “increasing awareness of their natural dignity.” I see this as learning by the Church - the fears that were expressed (disruption of the familial structure with the rejection of male headship, the drive towards contraception and sexual license, the displacement of religion from public life) remain fears but unconnected with the good brought by universal suffrage. The loss of male leadership in the home is largely the fault of the males, and acknowledging the blessing that a politically active, culturally-involved, educated and talented woman can contribute to her family, her community and her nation has been quickly embraced (ie, 1965’s Gaudium et Spes and 1988’s Mulieris Dignitatem). Even where Pope Paul VI calls attention to such rapid change, he calls for examining and understanding the disruption that it causes and prayerfully approaching a response that embraces the good while mitigating the ill.

To be fair, there’s not that much history where voting was a question, relatively speaking. For the first 1700 years of the Church’s existence, few nations allowed elections of any sort and power was retained by the monarchy. At one point, “universal suffrage” meant that land-owning wealthy men of good background could vote, not just this small blue-blooded group with landed titles who swooned about the monarch. Women’s suffrage moved very quickly in the United States, taking just 70 years from the start of the movement in 1848 to the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment in 1919 (unless you count MIssissippi, which only ratified it in 1984). So the distance from Pope Pius IX to Pope Paul VI is actually quite minimal compared with the distance from proscriptions against artificial birth control to a lifting of its restriction.
 
Your comments are very misleading. Disciplines can change, but teaching does **not **“change.’”

But there’s more……we are speaking about divine law which comes directly from Christ:
Teachings can change and have changed and evolved over time. There are very few teachings of the Church that are entirely immutable.
 
Ha ha…The very first sentence should be our clue as to the agenda of this article…Catholics who want to be true to themselves? What a typical and materialistic slant meant to mock the spiritual realm and encourage the rebellious!
People do not understand that those going against the Church are not rebellious, they, in their mind have weighed everything and just don’t want to leave the Church over the issues they don’t agree with. They are not looking for the Church to change its teaching.

For those who say these people misunderstand the teachings, in most case you are simply wrong. Like I said, most of the mothers and fathers I know went to at least 12 years of Catholic school, many went onto Catholic college and they completely know and understand the teachings of the Church on these issue, yet they are at Church every Sunday, have their kids in Catholic school, and continue to use BC, get divorced, and remarried outside the Church. They are not going to change their ways.
 
People do not understand that those going against the Church are not rebellious, they, in their mind have weighed everything and just don’t want to leave the Church over the issues they don’t agree with. They are not looking for the Church to change its teaching.

For those who say these people misunderstand the teachings, in most case you are simply wrong. Like I said, most of the mothers and fathers I know went to at least 12 years of Catholic school, many went onto Catholic college and they completely know and understand the teachings of the Church on these issue, yet they are at Church every Sunday, have their kids in Catholic school, and continue to use BC, get divorced, and remarried outside the Church. They are not going to change their ways.
First bold, the vast majority absolutely are looking for the Church to change it’s teachings.

Second bold, sadly you’re probably right, the temptation to make ourselves into our own little gods is very strong, for all of us.
 
People do not understand that those going against the Church are not rebellious, they, in their mind have weighed everything and just don’t want to leave the Church over the issues they don’t agree with. They are not looking for the Church to change its teaching.

For those who say these people misunderstand the teachings, in most case you are simply wrong. Like I said, most of the mothers and fathers I know went to at least 12 years of Catholic school, many went onto Catholic college and they completely know and understand the teachings of the Church on these issue, yet they are at Church every Sunday, have their kids in Catholic school, and continue to use BC, get divorced, and remarried outside the Church. They are not going to change their ways.
There is one thing they have forgotten in their cognitive dissonance - the Church requires that they assent to her teachings even when she is not using her full infallible authority. Whether their problem is moral relativism, disobedience or rebellion, the Church is here for the salvation of their souls; of course they will always be free to reject what she has to say.
 
Most of the women I know go to Church every Sunday and receive communion even though they are an birth control and many have their daughters on it also. They don’t think twice about it.
I thought that unrepented mortal sin sends a person to eternal damnation in hell? Is that still true or has that teaching been changed?
 
I thought that unrepented mortal sin sends a person to eternal damnation in hell? Is that still true or has that teaching been changed?
Either they don’t believe that, are waiting until they are dying to get forgiveness with Last Rights, or they are taking their chances.
 
There is one thing they have forgotten in their cognitive dissonance - the Church requires that they assent to her teachings even when she is not using her full infallible authority. Whether their problem is moral relativism, disobedience or rebellion, the Church is here for the salvation of their souls; of course they will always be free to reject what she has to say.
They are not forgetting anything. They fully know what they are doing.
 
This is charitably said …
People do not understand that those going against the Church are not rebellious, they, in their mind have weighed everything and just don’t want to leave the Church over the issues they don’t agree with. They are not looking for the Church to change its teaching… yet they are at Church every Sunday, have their kids in Catholic school, and continue to use BC, get divorced, and remarried outside the Church. They are not going to change their ways.
And it feeds well into the discussion. The purpose of this extraordinary conference (which is “extraordinary” in that it’s outside of the ordinary meetings) is to figure out how to reach these Catholics who read and understand doctrine but do not adhere to it. Dissent doesn’t always have to look like SNAP picketing about a priest who was accused of something being allowed to perform a baptism; it has very much to do with continual conversion of the heart towards Christ, and those who wish that conversion to end. Christ calls us to faith and to obedience not because those are separate things but because faith in Christ as Lord is difficult to reconcile if we do not live in obedience to Him. Dissent, then, is the holding back of the heart, as if to say “Lord, I’ll give you my Sundays, my schooling, my prayers, but stay out of my bedroom and off my computer and out of my relationships.”

I know that sounds monolithic and people aren’t - for every divorce that comes out of sheer selfishness (my cousin who got tired of his wife telling him not to spend money) there’s a divorce that comes out of sheer need (a friend whose mother was abandoned by his father). The pastoral care given has to differ - the cousin behaved abominably (and the family, fortunately, isn’t taking his side in this), the friend’s mother was deeply wronged. The solution isn’t an open-handed attitude towards divorce and remarriage, but rather truly getting at the heart of the matter. Before the cousin remarries, I’d love for the priest to sit down with him and say “You know, you’ve not escaped your spending problem, your selfishness, your self-focus, your self-importance. Do you really want to bring this woman into the same life that caused so much trouble for your first wife?” I’d love to be able to tell him the same but I’ve been told (by the family) it’s not my place. The friend whose mother was abandoned tried for nearly a year to contact the father, who has yet to pay child support for their two sons, who are grown with children of their own now. She left the Church primarily because when she was ready to move on and marry another, the parish priest refused to support an annulment because her husband didn’t give his case (he actually never signed the divorce papers so she was granted a no-contest divorce).
There is one thing they have forgotten in their cognitive dissonance - the Church requires that they assent to her teachings even when she is not using her full infallible authority. Whether their problem is moral relativism, disobedience or rebellion, the Church is here for the salvation of their souls; of course they will always be free to reject what she has to say.
I agree, this is a freedom but a sad one. Yes, you can walk willingly into Hell, you can even reject Church teaching and think that you aren’t going that way, but you are fully free to walk willingly into Hell. The Church says “don’t use birth control, even with your spouse. It’s gravely sinful.” Yet you still use it. What are you thinking? “The Church is wrong on this point”? Or “It’s sinful, sure, but only venially.”? Or “It’s gravely sinful but Jesus will save me anyway.”? Or “sure, it’s sinful, but God doesn’t ACTUALLY send people to Hell”? The Church must preach what it understands as the Truth, and people must know that they bear responsibility for what they do in life.
 
Either they don’t believe that, are waiting until they are dying to get forgiveness with Last Rights, or they are taking their chances.
Although I wonder if they realize they actually have to be sincere in asking for forgiveness. You cant trick God and it sounds like the people you describe are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
 
First bold, the vast majority absolutely are looking for the Church to change it’s teachings.

Second bold, sadly you’re probably right, the temptation to make ourselves into our own little gods is very strong, for all of us.
No the ones who go out into public and speak about this are the ones looking for change. Those I am speaking of are not at all looking for the Church to change its teaching, but that doesn’t mean they will starting following the teaching on those issues.
 
As has been pointed out, it seems that many different groups have been trying to “claim” Pope Francis as their own. I’m getting the feeling that this Synod is kind of going to be the “big reveal”, where we’ll learn a lot. Which is what makes it so unnerving.
 
I don’t know why they need to have a discussion at all…all they need to do is come on CAF where most posters have already decided for them what they can and can’t do:D…I’m just being facetious.
 
His Holiness needs to be tough and decisive. He can not let any “hope” arise that teachings will change. If that occurs, we have lost already as the public will consider it already done. He has been mushy with his words at times and at others completely baffling. Clear, precise and authorative is what we need.
 
His Holiness needs to be tough and decisive. He can not let any “hope” arise that teachings will change. If that occurs, we have lost already as the public will consider it already done. He has been mushy with his words at times and at others completely baffling. Clear, precise and authorative is what we need.
Agreed!
 
As has been pointed out, it seems that many different groups have been trying to “claim” Pope Francis as their own. I’m getting the feeling that this Synod is kind of going to be the “big reveal”, where we’ll learn a lot. Which is what makes it so unnerving.
Why are you nervous if you believe in the Church.
 
Why are you nervous if you believe in the Church.
Well, as a Catholic, I know that the Church is supposed to be indefectible, and protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit (though I would not pretend to know all the details of what this exactly means).

Proposals have been made that, if they were enacted, would seem to indicate that the Church had defected from the Truth. A common response seems to be that, for this reason, the proposals “can’t” be enacted, or would be prevented by the Holy Spirit, (perhaps this is true, I don’t know).

Maybe it is just a lack of faith on my part, but at least from a worldly perspective of Church “politics”, it seems to be reasonably possible that these proposals could be enacted. If they were, we would be faced with some pretty heavy questions of faith and the nature of the Church.

Basically, I love the Church with all my heart, so the thought of watching a drama unfold in which the Church could potentially be shown to be (in some sense) false, is pretty daunting.
 
Well, as a Catholic, I know that the Church is supposed to be indefectible, and protected from teaching error by the Holy Spirit (though I would not pretend to know all the details of what this exactly means).

Proposals have been made that, if they were enacted, would seem to indicate that the Church had defected from the Truth. A common response seems to be that, for this reason, the proposals “can’t” be enacted, or would be prevented by the Holy Spirit, (perhaps this is true, I don’t know).

Maybe it is just a lack of faith on my part, but at least from a worldly perspective of Church “politics”, it seems to be reasonably possible that these proposals could be enacted. If they were, we would be faced with some pretty heavy questions of faith and the nature of the Church.

Basically, I love the Church with all my heart, so the thought of watching a drama unfold in which the Church could potentially be shown to be (in some sense) false, is pretty daunting.
I agree 100%. I guess I feel like, if implemented, this change (which I don’t really thoroughly understand I admit) could very well lead to others even less desirable. To me setting the precedent is the real danger. In my heart I think political and social influences are at play here to the detriment of the Church. The wolves are driving the sheep…and what is so sad about it is that no matter how wide we throw open the doors, not that many will come in, I assure you. I really, really hope that what is not at the root of all of this is a numbers game - can we pull more in - they’ll get about as many as they lose, or frankly possibly a few less. This has been tried before. What I loved about the Church was that she defended the faith. I never thought I would see her wave the white flag.
 
I agree 100%. I guess I feel like, if implemented, this change (which I don’t really thoroughly understand I admit) could very well lead to others even less desirable. To me setting the precedent is the real danger. In my heart I think political and social influences are at play here to the detriment of the Church. The wolves are driving the sheep…and what is so sad about it is that no matter how wide we throw open the doors, not that many will come in, I assure you. I really, really hope that what is not at the root of all of this is a numbers game - can we pull more in - they’ll get about as many as they lose, or frankly possibly a few less. This has been tried before. What I loved about the Church was that she defended the faith. I never thought I would see her wave the white flag.
Well said.

I think what it ultimately comes down to is simple: is the doctrine going to change, or is it just pastoral directives and policies that will change?

If doctrine changes, the Church has defected from the Truth. If its just pastoral policies that change, I probably won’t like or agree with the changes, but ultimately the Church would retain the Truth and it would be “ok”.

At this point, I think the most likely outcome is that the doctrine will technically be upheld, but pastoral policies will be adopted that will “stretch” the doctrine. The idea they (the hierarchy) seem to keep coming back to is this idea of “taking individual circumstances into account”. For a long time I couldn’t figure out what they meant, but I think it’s basically that they want the anullment process to be quicker, easier, and to happen closer to home. My guess is that the end result will be that they will move the responsibilities of the anullment process to national Bishops Conferences, or even to Diocese’s. I wouldn’t be happy with this (because I think it would basically be an excuse to make anullments easy to get), but if it happened I would be happy to breath a sigh of relief that the doctrine stayed intact.

The problem is that since some current proposals DO involve changing doctrine, we have to just wait and see, which, for me at least, is pretty agonizing.
 
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