Vatican to debate teachings on divorce, birth control, gay unions

[Thorns]

yet babies, created by God, can have birth defects, die in the womb, or be born with huge complications. Is not each child created by God, yet not all are born “perfect”

That has everything to do with the effects of living in a broken and imperfect world. This doesn’t have anything to do with being led or not led by the Holy Spirit.

Do we really need to believe that every single thing it has ever come up with has been right? And if so why?

It has always been correct in regards to faith and morals. This is pretty evident by observing the fact that there are no immoral teachings held or permitted doctrinally by the Church as a whole. Every hot topic that the Church is against or declares immoral, you can see why it is they deem certain acts the way they do with good reason. Such deep wisdom, accuracy, and knowledge can only come from one place and guess where and Who that comes from?

 

[Thorns]

And what about the objections of this poor Lutheran woman who followed all of the Catholic rules that she was asked to, including going to Mass every Sunday with her children? Now she is told that while she was living with this Catholic man that she thought was her husband, she really was never married, which she considers to be a great insult to her integrity and character as a decent Christian lady.

The Church deeming her marriage invalid was not done so as a punishment or as a mistake, but rather, revealed that fact as a truth. If her husband was not faithful from the beginning and at the time of the marriage, then the marriage was never lawful. If the husband lied from the beginning, how would anyone have known? The truth apparently came out later. In any event, it’s an unfortunate situation.

 

[StevenFrancis]

latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-vatican-family-20140430-story.html

Re: Vatican to debate teachings on divorce, birth control, gay unions
What the heck does that even mean? A friend mentioned this to me too. I better check the article before I panic.

 

[Tomdstone]

The Church deeming her marriage invalid was not done so as a punishment or as a mistake, but rather, revealed that fact as a truth. If her husband was not faithful from the beginning and at the time of the marriage, then the marriage was never lawful. If the husband lied from the beginning, how would anyone have known? The truth apparently came out later. In any event, it’s an unfortunate situation.

No. the husband was faithful for 15 years of marriage and there never was any question of the validity of the marriage for a full 15 years. The Lutheran lady brought her children up respectfully and as Catholics. Now, after 16 years, the Catholic Church tells her that she was living with a man that was never her husband from the beginning of the marriage? She considers that to be a real insult on her character. Suppose that the husband did not apply for the annulment. Then the Catholic Church would be saying that her marriage was valid? As she sees it, this is all done so that her husband can marry someone else and still take Communion in the Catholic Church. As another poster put it, if the Church did not allow these annulments, then how many more people would leave the Catholic Church? According to her, the honest way of approaching this is to say that she was married for this 16 year period, but that her husband now wanted a divorce so that he could get married to someone else.

 

[Thorns]

No. the husband was faithful for 15 years of marriage and there never was any question of the validity of the marriage for a full 15 years.

Yes, but was he faithful at the time of the marriage? Meaning, was he honest in his vows at the time of the wedding and did he know what matrimony entailed and was he honest in his reasons for consenting to be married? Was he hiding any other information that should have been shared at the time of the wedding? If he was not honest or not informed of what marriage really is, even if he was faithful after that, I believe that constitutes the marriage as being unlawful. There were no questions of the validity for 15 years because he kept it well hidden. The Church would not have granted an annulment if they felt there was no good reason for it to be annulled. People often complain that the Church is actually too strict and complain for lack of being granted an annulment.

 

[migueltojose]

The Church deeming her marriage invalid was not done so as a punishment or as a mistake, but rather, revealed that fact as a truth. If her husband was not faithful from the beginning and at the time of the marriage, then the marriage was never lawful. If the husband lied from the beginning, how would anyone have known? The truth apparently came out later. In any event, it’s an unfortunate situation.

Or her husband misled or deceived the annulment process. In which case her heart can be at peace with herself and the Church. The annulment process allowed based on mistruths is suspect. The Church cannot read a man’s heart. But the Father Son and Holy Spirit can. People are selfish rationalizing spin doctors. Even outright liars. Or, no one has ever gotten an annulment under false pretenses.

We might think we know the hearts of men, but we really never know. God knows. I think the Pope errs on the side of mercy. We are all sinners. So this can relate not only to this woman but also the topics in the OP. Decreased Catechesis and virtuous support groups/institutions coupled with increased temptation, leisure time and disposable income leads to increased sinning.

 

[Thorns]

Or her husband misled or deceived the annulment process. In which case her heart can be at peace with herself and the Church. The annulment process allowed based on mistruths is suspect. The Church cannot read a man’s heart. But the Father Son and Holy Spirit can. People are selfish rationalizing spin doctors. Even outright liars. Or, no one has ever gotten an annulment under false pretenses.

I think the tribunals are used to dealing with liars and made up stories and the like. There is usually a lot of investigation that goes on during the annulment process, they don’t just take people’s word for it.

 

[StevenFrancis]

This is just an example of sensationalist tabloid journalism.

No, the Church is not going to “debate” any teachings, but discuss them.

I would strongly suggest that readers here go to the official Vatican website to read the document (which has been made public) expressing what will be discussed at the upcoming synod.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20131105_iii-assemblea-sinodo-vescovi_en.html

Thank you. Actually I eschewed the article and decided to read this instead. I’d be lying if I still wasn’t a little concerned with what might be done as a result of the answers to the questions, particularly from the U.S… But the Church must address the culture. As long as the Church is looking at the pastoral challenges and addressing the challenges in a way that doesn’t change doctrine itself, then I will still believe we possess the four marks of the Church.

 

[Yause]

No. the husband was faithful for 15 years of marriage and there never was any question of the validity of the marriage for a full 15 years. The Lutheran lady brought her children up respectfully and as Catholics. Now, after 16 years, the Catholic Church tells her that she was living with a man that was never her husband from the beginning of the marriage? She considers that to be a real insult on her character. Suppose that the husband did not apply for the annulment. Then thel Catholic Church would be saying that her marriage was valid? As she sees it, this is all done so that her husband can marry someone else and still take Communion in the Catholic Church. As another poster put it, if the Church did not allow these annulments, then how many more people would leave the Catholic Church? According to her, the honest way of approaching this is to say that she was married for this 16 year period, but that her husband now wanted a divorce so that he could get married to someone else.

Unless I’m mistaken, annulment is only permitted if the husband never had the intention of remaining faithful.

BTW, according to what I have heard from some E. Orthodox Christians, they say that their Church allowed for divorce and remarriage early on, before the split of 1054, and that Rome did not object.,

Yes, there’s some suggestion that both practices (annulments in the west, second marriage blessings in the east; both were supposed to be rare concessions) emerged around the same time as a solution to a pastoral problem. By design, any policy had to work within the theological framework of the respective church.

I’d imagine that the complex history may be cited by some bishops as a valid reason for considering a change.

 

[Tomdstone]

Unless I’m mistaken, annulment is only permitted if the husband never had the intention of remaining faithful .

No. There are many other reasons for permitting a marriage annulment.

 

[Corki]

Obviously many of you don’t believe the Catholic Church is still being guided by the Holy Spirit…if…and I say if…the church decided that there is someway to accommodate divorced and remarried Catholics to receive communion…many who have suffered emotionally and spiritually… it will be through the mercy and guidance of the Holy Spirit…why so many Catholics on CAFare so against these people being able to once again partake of the precious body and blood of our savior is just plain judgemental hypocricy…like I said…if it does change in some form or another it will be through the Holy Spirit which has guided the Catholic Church for 2000 years…what business is it of yours…or mine… what God may or may not allow.

This is a very uncharitable and rude post.

It is perfectly natural to be concerned when issues like this are in the news. It does NOT, in ANY WAY, mean that that nervousness is a sign of a lack of faith in the Church or in the Holy Spirit.

No one here is “against these people being able to once again partake of the precious body and blood of our savior” nor has anyone here expressed “judgmental hypocricy” (sic)

What HAS been expressed is a rightful concern as to how such a change, if there were to be one, would be communicated and interpreted. Some of us lived through the years right after Vatican II and saw first hand how the true teaching of the Church can be twisted and how poorly communicated theology can destroy the faith of many. Many of us on CAF are in positions where we have the responsibility of passing on the teachings of the Church to others either as catechists or as parents. It is perfectly understandable for such Catholics to express concern as to how to best explain a changing teaching by the Church regarding the permanence of marriage and the requirements to be married in the Church.

The only one being judgmental here is you by calling into question the faith of other Catholics (something that is against CAF rules, by the way)

 

[nana_again]

I am on the precipice of leaving the Catholic faith!
I have been happily married for 34 years and intend to stay that way. But, IF my husband were to become abusive our unfaithful, that marriage would end. To teach that unless you have an annulment ($$$), you are no longer in your church or allowed to receive communion if you re-marry is preposterous! “I am not my brother’s keeper” and therefor should not be held accountable for someone else’s actions (ex-husband).
On the topic of birth control, I see no problem with it as long as it is not the morning after pill that destroys a fetus. Using the logic of our faith that sex is only for the purpose of procreation, my husband and I have been in grievous sin for 10 years because I had to have a hysterectomy. Therefore, there is no chance of procreation! Furthermore, medical advances should be taken into consideration!! If new advances in birth control are not acceptable, then let’s say you can’t take new vaccines, heart medications, etc. You must allow for medical advances!
With regard to the whole “gay” thing, there are MRI images that show you ARE born that way. The images show a heterosexual male brain, heterosexual female brain, gay male brain and lesbian brain. When compared, the gay male brain is almost identical to the heterosexual female brain and the lesbian brain is likewise almost identical to the heterosexual male brain. And yet, there are stark differences in the heterosexual male and heterosexual female brain!! I realize there will be those who argue this reply with bible verses and I have read them all. I simply cannot believe that my Lord and Saviour is setting up there saying, “hmmmmm, I’m gonna make this next one gay/lesbian and he/she will live their entire life with prejudice, hate, and ridicule and I want them to live alone and have no one to love and share their life with.” We are “born” black, we are “born” white; we are “born” straight, we are “born” gay; we are "born Muslim, we are “born” Hispanic; we are “born” with Down’s Syndrome, we are “born” geniuses. We are not “born” to hate, discriminate and judge. Stop teaching what we were not “born” to do.

 

[shelby_sun]

I am on the precipice of leaving the Catholic faith!
I have been happily married for 34 years and intend to stay that way. But, IF my husband were to become abusive our unfaithful, that marriage would end. To teach that unless you have an annulment ($$$), you are no longer in your church or allowed to receive communion if you re-marry is preposterous! “I am not my brother’s keeper” and therefor should not be held accountable for someone else’s actions (ex-husband).
On the topic of birth control, I see no problem with it as long as it is not the morning after pill that destroys a fetus. Using the logic of our faith that sex is only for the purpose of procreation, my husband and I have been in grievous sin for 10 years because I had to have a hysterectomy. Therefore, there is no chance of procreation! Furthermore, medical advances should be taken into consideration!! If new advances in birth control are not acceptable, then let’s say you can’t take new vaccines, heart medications, etc. You must allow for medical advances!
With regard to the whole “gay” thing, there are MRI images that show you ARE born that way. The images show a heterosexual male brain, heterosexual female brain, gay male brain and lesbian brain. When compared, the gay male brain is almost identical to the heterosexual female brain and the lesbian brain is likewise almost identical to the heterosexual male brain. And yet, there are stark differences in the heterosexual male and heterosexual female brain!! I realize there will be those who argue this reply with bible verses and I have read them all. I simply cannot believe that my Lord and Saviour is setting up there saying, “hmmmmm, I’m gonna make this next one gay/lesbian and he/she will live their entire life with prejudice, hate, and ridicule and I want them to live alone and have no one to love and share their life with.” We are “born” black, we are “born” white; we are “born” straight, we are “born” gay; we are "born Muslim, we are “born” Hispanic; we are “born” with Down’s Syndrome, we are “born” geniuses. We are not “born” to hate, discriminate and judge. Stop teaching what we were not “born” to do.

I agree with most of what you have said. If reading post on this site has made you want to leave the Church, I am right there with you. Luckily I work at a Catholic school that does not focus on tell people they are going to hell everyday, but rather how Christ can work in their lives and how they can go out an serve Him, not by quoting every teaching of the Church, but rather through community service, treating people like they are a child of God, and building their own personal relationship with God on a daily basis. God knows what is in your heart and just parroting back what the Church say when you don’'t believe it just lying, and He above all other would know it.

You will not get many people here to side with you on these issues, but there are many, many Catholics out in the world today that agree with you. How the Church deals with that fact will be interesting. My son, who attends the Catholic school I work at told me yesterday that he is thinking of going to the Episcopal church because of all the issues you mentioned. We pulled him out of a Catholic grade school because of the very non-Christ like parents their that truly crushed his spirit. We put him in an Episcopal school which built him back up again. I have to say, I might be going with someday.

 

[TCEL]

I have to say, I might be going with someday.

You sound very frustrated due to feelings of being judged. What do you love about Christ and His Church? Is it her teachings in these areas, or the way they are presented, that turn you off? See, I love the Church partly because of these teachings. They were presented in a way to me that made sense when my generation has little with which to make sense. We are told we have worth, yes, but then we’re told we’re the result of accident, and that there is no plan but what we make. The teachings in this area helped me more fully appreciate the inestimable dignity of man, God’s Eternal Word, and His mercy. I am an artistic person, so I really sympathize with the natural law. I look and see that God has intentions and purpose for His creation, beyond what we may realize at the time. I want to be caught up in that, in something bigger than me. Definitely challenging to live, but my interior conversion to the Lord was, is, and will be challenging, too. I think these teachings are witnesses to God’s loving plan for us. And, like a loving Father, He is merciful. While I don’t want to end on this note, I have to say that I don’t understand the concept of mercy unless there is something to be forgiven.

 

[Corki]

I am on the precipice of leaving the Catholic faith!
I have been happily married for 34 years and intend to stay that way. But, IF my husband were to become abusive our unfaithful, that marriage would end. To teach that unless you have an annulment ($$$), you are no longer in your church or allowed to receive communion if you re-marry is preposterous! “I am not my brother’s keeper” and therefor should not be held accountable for someone else’s actions (ex-husband).
On the topic of birth control, I see no problem with it as long as it is not the morning after pill that destroys a fetus. Using the logic of our faith that sex is only for the purpose of procreation, my husband and I have been in grievous sin for 10 years because I had to have a hysterectomy. Therefore, there is no chance of procreation! Furthermore, medical advances should be taken into consideration!! If new advances in birth control are not acceptable, then let’s say you can’t take new vaccines, heart medications, etc. You must allow for medical advances!
With regard to the whole “gay” thing, there are MRI images that show you ARE born that way. The images show a heterosexual male brain, heterosexual female brain, gay male brain and lesbian brain. When compared, the gay male brain is almost identical to the heterosexual female brain and the lesbian brain is likewise almost identical to the heterosexual male brain. And yet, there are stark differences in the heterosexual male and heterosexual female brain!! I realize there will be those who argue this reply with bible verses and I have read them all. I simply cannot believe that my Lord and Saviour is setting up there saying, “hmmmmm, I’m gonna make this next one gay/lesbian and he/she will live their entire life with prejudice, hate, and ridicule and I want them to live alone and have no one to love and share their life with.” We are “born” black, we are “born” white; we are “born” straight, we are “born” gay; we are "born Muslim, we are “born” Hispanic; we are “born” with Down’s Syndrome, we are “born” geniuses. We are not “born” to hate, discriminate and judge. Stop teaching what we were not “born” to do.

I have to ask what brought you to this precipice? After all of this time, what has the Church done now to make you so discouraged?

 

[shelby_sun]

You sound very frustrated due to feelings of being judged. What do you love about Christ and His Church? Is it her teachings in these areas, or the way they are presented, that turn you off? See, I love the Church partly because of these teachings. They were presented in a way to me that made sense when my generation has little with which to make sense. We are told we have worth, yes, but then we’re told we’re the result of accident, and that there is no plan but what we make. The teachings in this area helped me more fully appreciate the inestimable dignity of man, God’s Eternal Word, and His mercy. I am an artistic person, so I really sympathize with the natural law. I look and see that God has intentions and purpose for His creation, beyond what we may realize at the time. I want to be caught up in that, in something bigger than me. Definitely challenging to live, but my interior conversion to the Lord was, is, and will be challenging, too. I think these teachings are witnesses to God’s loving plan for us. And, like a loving Father, He is merciful. While I don’t want to end on this note, I have to say that I don’t understand the concept of mercy unless there is something to be forgiven.

I am not frustrated by being judged at all, I fully expect that on this site because of my beliefs which I have always said I do not claim to be right. My story is much to long to get into here, but simply put I was an “accident baby” that came while my parents were on NFP. From the day my parents told my siblings she was pregnant again, my brothers have wanted nothing to do with me, and one sister resented me until the day she died. My parents youngest child at the time was 10 years old and she never wanted another child. She had a nervous breakdown, drinking 24/7, that last until I was almost seven and it destroyed my family causing huge issues for everyone throughout there life.

There are simply people that mentally, emotionally, spiritually that should not be open to having more children and NFP is not always the best way for them to handle that it is that simple. I respect that these things are what you love about the church and completely understand why you feel that way, but God above anyone else knows the true trials and pain in peoples’ live and I believe He is much more forgiving than many on this site.

I also have an issue with in all the 2000 years of Church teaching it has been unmarried men with no children deciding some of these things. Does God only inspire men on these major issues in our lives even though they effect women just as much? I am not a feminist, but over the years, especially when so many priests have been so sinful, I just cannot believe the Church has been right about everything it has ever stated. Yes they were inspired by God but that does mean were correct in how the interpreted his plan.

 

[losh14]

I am on the precipice of leaving the Catholic faith!

nana again, II see that you are upset and you’ve unfortunately found a rather tense thread to begin looking on. I’d like to encourage you in your faith and applaud you and your husband for 34 years of marriage, and note that you are NOT in grave sin as far as your post. Thank you for being so open, please take comfort that what you wrote:

Using the logic of our faith that sex is only for the purpose of procreation, my husband and I have been in grievous sin for 10 years because I had to have a hysterectomy.

is not the case at all. Pope Paul VI, in Humanae Vitae, writes that sexual intercourse
“does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed.”

That extends to naturally-occurring infertility, or infertility from a medically-necessary procedure such as hysterectomy. The Church nowhere says that post-menopausal women have to stop making love to their husbands. So long as the *intent *of medical treatment that induces infertility is not contraceptive, it isn’t sinful.

 I have been happily married for 34 years and intend to stay that way.  But, IF my husband were to become abusive our unfaithful, that marriage would end.

This would be considered abandonment by your husband. You’d not incur sin for seeking safety in a civil divorce (CCC 2386) nor would you incur sin in the situation where you try to work things out but he refuses and files for divorce (CCC 2383).

To teach that unless you have an annulment ($$$), you are no longer in your church or allowed to receive communion if you re-marry is preposterous!

This is not entirely correct. If you are divorced and remarried without annulment, you are not removed from the Church. If you remarry, you may not receive the Eucharist until your first marriage is annulled, but you are not removed from the Church or forbidden to celebrate Mass.

You state objections to the Church’s teaching on birth control and gay marriage. Are these sufficient to compel you to leave the Church, even knowing that you are not in grave sin for having had to suffer a hysterectomy?

 

[Tomdstone]

…like I said…if it does change in some form or another it will be through the Holy Spirit which has guided the Catholic Church for 2000 years…what business is it of yours…or mine… what God may or may not allow.

It is our business if someone in our family has had his marriage ruined by the unfair annulment process of the Roman Catholic Church.

 

[losh14]

I think we’re beginning to get off-topic. The question is what will be debated. The concerns raised here - and certainly passionately felt by all sides - over moral teachings deserve their own threads. And I think in charity we ought to take some time to accept that we disagree and speak thoughtfully on what divides us, with an eye on Who unites us.

 

[Tomdstone]

I also have an issue with in all the 2000 years of Church teaching it has been unmarried men with no children deciding some of these things. Does God only inspire men on these major issues in our lives even though they effect women just as much?

What is your opinion on the choice of Jesus to have the 12 apostles to be all male?