"Vatican to Issue Stamp Featuring Martin Luther"

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What’s that got to do with my point?
My question has everything to do with your point. You said: “Celebrating the breakup of the church does seem bizzarre at best.”

So I ask again, how acquainted are you with From Conflict to Communion – and more importantly with the work of the dicastery?

Presuming you are American, I presume you have an in-depth knowledge of Declaration on the Way.

You should have found your answers there.
 
Presuming you are American, I presume you have an in-depth knowledge of Declaration on the Way.

You should have found your answers there.
Why would you presume that, Declaration isn’t a big seller and I’d presume that he probably heard about it but didn’t read it at all, much less study it enough to have an in depth knowledge.
 
Don,

Here’s a question from an outsider (I am not Catholic)-

Is there any sort of infallible statement from the magisterium that binds all Catholics in regard to Luther and the Reformation? If not, why should it ultimately matter “Which dicastery” is followed? Until such defined statements, are not individuals Catholics allowed to have different opinions on non-infallibly defined issues?
To formulate your first question thus is to not comprehend at all the charism of infallibility and its function in the Church.

My work as a theologian is under the CDF…and I am attentive to all of their communications…just as a priest, I am with those emerging from the Congregation for the Clergy and, most especially, CDWDS and the PCTL as well as the guidance from the Apostolic Penitentiary, even though I am now retired.

For work in the area of dialogue, one is dispositively guided by PCPCU.

Are there requirements that those who are not priests are to follow? Yes, absolutely. In the case of this topic being discussed, they are first articulated in Unitatis Redintegratio and then in The Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism. As was stated in the directory:
6. The new edition of the Directory is meant to be an instrument at the service of the whole Church and especially of those who are directly engaged in ecumenical activity in the Catholic Church. The Directory intends to motivate, enlighten and guide this activity, and in some particular cases also to give binding directives in accordance with the proper competence of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity.
The diocesan bishops are to assure that the faithful of their diocese are complying with the binding directives from the Holy See.

Thus, a dicastery can issue directives that are, absolutely, binding; they are dispositive.

That has applied to the vast majority – virtually the entirety – of norms which I have carried out over the decades…whether in a parish or in a chancery or even, for that matter, in my years in the academy.
 
Why would you presume that, Declaration isn’t a big seller and I’d presume that he probably heard about it but didn’t read it at all, much less study it enough to have an in depth knowledge.
I think the point is that one would expect that a Catholic who is criticizing the Church’s view of Luther and the Reformation would have at least bothered to read the Church documents that set out and explain the Church’s view.
 
My question has everything to do with your point. You said: “Celebrating the breakup of the church does seem bizzarre at best.”

So I ask again, how acquainted are you with From Conflict to Communion – and more importantly with the work of the dicastery?

Presuming you are American, I presume you have an in-depth knowledge of Declaration on the Way.

You should have found your answers there.
I dont need to read those to form the opinion that celebrating the worst breakup of the church is bizzarre.
 
I dont need to read those to form the opinion that celebrating the worst breakup of the church is bizzarre.
Agreed.
We do stand for truth and the truth is, Martin Luther saw a corrupt Church when he visited Rome and saw people paying for an indulgence to avoid purgatory, while the Pope rode on a white horse while wearing a knight’s suit of gold plated armor.

Luther had no intention of leaving the Catholic Church and starting a new religion. This only happened as the Pope excommunicated him.

Today, the past two Popes and our present Pope, have a better understanding of the mindset of the time of Luther. They also have the Gospel of Jesus to follow and being united if only in spirit with the Lutherans is following the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The divisions for the most part, are man made and not what Jesus intended.

Jim
The division is what we have to live with and all of the heresies and loss of life and souls that has resulted.

Of course Luther himself, like any man is multi-faceted but most men do not leave a trail of blood in their wake and provide the impetus for the secular take over of much of the church in many regards.

Sure, any man has good points and bad, such as Luther’s contribution, justification and legacy of German hatred towards the Jews and the foundations of a German moral structure apart from the church.

I may look to my clerical and secular rulers today and rightly point out corruption. It is not a difficult thing to find. But God forbid my pointing it out would leave a legacy like Luther.

It is obviously a bad occurrence.
 
I dont need to read those to form the opinion that celebrating the worst breakup of the church is bizzarre.
Well, then all you are left with is your opinion.

As a priest and a theologian, such uninformed opinions have neither value nor interest.

What is of value and of significance is what the Church teaches and what her mind is on these matters. That is expressed directly by the Holy Father or through the dicasteries that are at his service.
 
Well, then all you are left with is your opinion.

As a priest and a theologian, such uninformed opinions have neither value nor interest.

What is of value and of significance is what the Church teaches and what her mind is on these matters. That is expressed directly by the Holy Father or through the dicasteries that are at his service.
Unless these documents claim that it is CHURCH TEACHING that the breakup of the church was a thing worthy of honor and celebration, I will retain my opinion that I don’t need to read them to form the opinion that celebrating this breakup is bizzarre.
 
Today, the past two Popes and our present Pope, have a better understanding of the mindset of the time of Luther. They also have the Gospel of Jesus to follow and being united if only in spirit with the Lutherans is following the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is not just Pope Saint John Paul II, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis who have a better understanding. It is the College of Bishops as well as the theological community and the historians working with us on the one hand and our dialogue partners doing the exact same thing on their side…as they reassess their own positions.

One of my favorite passages, that is at once introspective and brutal in assessment, remains

*232. Sixteenth-century divisions were rooted in different understandings of the truth of the Christian faith and were particularly contentious since salvation was seen to be at stake. On both sides, persons held theological convictions that they could not abandon. One must not blame someone for following his or her conscience when it is formed by the Word of God and has reached its judgments after serious deliberation with others.
  1. How theologians presented their theological convictions in the battle for public opinion is quite another matter. In the sixteenth century, Catholics and Lutherans frequently not only misunderstood but also exaggerated and caricatured their opponents in order to make them look ridiculous. They repeatedly violated the eighth commandment, which prohibits bearing false witness against one’s neighbor. Even if the opponents were sometimes intellectually fair to one another, their willingness to hear the other and to take his concerns seriously was insufficient. The controversialists wanted to refute and overcome their opponents, often deliberately exacerbating conflicts rather than seeking solutions by looking for what they held in common. Prejudices and misunderstandings played a great role in the characterization of the other side. Oppositions were constructed and handed down to the next generation. Here both sides have every reason to regret and lament the way in which they conducted their debates. Both Lutherans and Catholics bear the guilt that needs to be openly confessed in the remembrance of the events of 500 years ago. *
 
Am not sure what to make of this. Patrick Madrid from Catholic radio has this reaction on Twitter:
“If true this is BEYOND surreal. And quite disturbing.”

lifesitenews.com/news/vatican-gives-stamp-of-approval-to-martin-luther

“The Vatican office charged with issuing stamps, known as the Philatelic and Numismatic Office, confirmed Tuesday to LifeSiteNews that Luther, who broke away from the Catholic Church in a schism 500 years ago, will be celebrated with a postage stamp in 2017. The office is in charge of the annual commission of stamps, coins, and other commemorative medals.”

Why would they celebrate Martin Luther with a stamp rather than someone who was faithful to our Church? It makes no sense.
They are, but it is not flattering at all:
tinyurl.com/hth5g7s

It commerates 500 years of the “pseudo-reformation”.

It is a condemnation of him, not a commemoration.
 
They are, but it is not flattering at all:
tinyurl.com/hth5g7s

It commerates 500 years of the “pseudo-reformation”.

It is a condemnation of him, not a commemoration.
Wow. Does Haeretica mean heretic? It appears this is mocking the “pseudo-reformation”…Oh wow. It appears the Vatican shares my view that celebrating the church’s break-up is bizzare at best 😃 Hillarious, after two posters lecture on how we should be professors before we dare make simple common sense observations about how bizzarre it is to celebrate one of the worst things that ever happened to you! 😛
 
It is not just Pope Saint John Paul II, Pope Benedict and Pope Francis who have a better understanding. It is the College of Bishops as well as the theological community and the historians working with us on the one hand and our dialogue partners doing the exact same thing on their side…as they reassess their own positions.
“different understandings of the truth of the Christian faith”

"133. Q. In which church are these attributes and marks found?

A. These attributes and marks are found in the Holy Roman Catholic Church alone.

We have seen that some religions may seem to have one or two of the marks; but the Catholic Church alone has them all, and is consequently the only true Church of Christ. The other religions are not one-that is, united over the world; they give no proof of holiness, never having had any great saints whom God acknowledged as such by performing miracles for them. They are not catholic, because they have not taught in all ages and nations. They are not apostolic, because established hundreds of years after the Apostles. They are not infallible, for they have now declared things to be false which they formerly declared to be true; they are not indefectible-they are not as Our Lord founded them, for He never founded them; and they are constantly making changes in their beliefs and practices.

The marks of the Church are necessary also because the Church must be a visible Church, that all men may be able to see and know it; for Our Lord said, “He that will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and the publican.” (Matt. 18:17). Heathens were those who worshipped false gods. Publicans were men who gathered the taxes from the Jews for the Romans; they were generally very cruel to the people, and were much hated and despised by them. Therefore Our Lord meant: if anyone will not obey the Church, you should avoid him as you avoid the heathens and the publicans, whom you despise. Now no one can be blamed for not obeying a church that is invisible and unknown. Therefore the true Church must be a visible body and easily known to all who earnestly seek it as the Church of Christ. But if some shut their eyes and refuse to look at the light of truth, ignorance will not excuse them; they must be blamed and fall under the sentence of Our Lord."
" 1http://www.cin.org/users/james/ebooks/master/baltimore/bcreed09.htm

“battle for public opinion is quite another matter.”

I think it was actually a battle for the Truth, not public opinion. This document, like so many others of recent history, uses a lens of relativism rather than the perennial teachings of the Church. St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Francis De Sales come to mind as faithful Sons of the Church who battled the errors of Luther and Protestantism, and there were many others. St. John Fisher and St. Thomas More gave their lives to defend Holy Mother Church. I dare say this was not the actions of someone who wished to merely sway “Public opinion”.

The document argues from a standpoint (relativistic) that neither group had the Fullness of the Truth. This sets up the entire premise that both sides shared in error. I refute that assumption.

I realize that much of what has transpired in the past 50 years was motivated by some as an attempt to reverse what they saw as a closing off of the Church by the actions of the Council of Trent. The hard teachings and Anathemas of Trent were seen as a hindrance to the “New Springtime”. But i would posit that we went too far. We jettisoned our protections and firewalls for the sake of Ecumenism and popularity. We stripped much of our Catholic Culture for the sake of a false ecumenism with the Protestants. We sought to win the world by moving into the world, rather than shining the Light of Truth to the lost as a beacon of Hope from whence they might leave the world and enjoin themselves with the One True Church.
There are many who argue that the cultural revolutions of the 60’s and 70’s would have created the demise of the culture even had the Church not changed. I argue that the demise of the culture is a result of the changes.

Even so, i submit to the Teachings of Holy Mother Church and to her physical Head, the Holy Father, Pope Francis, and to His Bishops on all points of Doctrine and Dogma, as has been taught for the ages. I will submit to teachings and pastoral writings in the same manner.
 
They are, but it is not flattering at all:
tinyurl.com/hth5g7s

It commerates 500 years of the “pseudo-reformation”.

It is a condemnation of him, not a commemoration.
Wait, that’s the proposed stamp?

Not someone who photoshopped something?

I certainly have reservations about celebrating Luther, but doesn’t this have the opposite effect of stirring the pot?
 
Wait, that’s the proposed stamp?

Not someone who photoshopped something?

I certainly have reservations about celebrating Luther, but doesn’t this have the opposite effect of stirring the pot?
I agree. It is unnecessary.
 
Shouldn’t we humble ourselves and realize that the Vatican has a much better view and understanding of Luther than we do?
 
Wait, that’s the proposed stamp?

Not someone who photoshopped something?

I certainly have reservations about celebrating Luther, but doesn’t this have the opposite effect of stirring the pot?
I’m pretty sure that is not the design of the proposed stamp.
 
[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]
😃 Hillarious, after two posters lecture on how we should be professors before we dare make simple common sense observations about how bizzarre it is to celebrate one of the worst things that ever happened to you! 😛
I agree with you. It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for those that use academics to disqualify and belittle the faithful from rendering common sense opinions. They use this method to simply shut down common sense and valid discussions/debates that should be had. I find it uncharitable, wrong, unchristian and downright disgusting. The Catholic Church does not belong to popes, bishops and priests. The Catholic Church belongs to Christ, and the Church ceases to be herself if she departs from Christ and His teachings.

It is only proper and appropriate to remind these arrogant/ignorant people that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself chose poor peasants and fishermen to be His apostles to spread His message of salvation to all corners of the world. St. Peter, whom Christ chose as his first pope and gave him the key to heaven, was a fisherman. Our Holy Mother herself was a poor peasant. Furthermore, it was no coincident that our Holy Mother chose to appear to the three poor peasant children (Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco) in Fatima, Portugal and to the poor girl (Bernadette Soubirous) in Lourdes, France to send her messages to the world. St. Teresa de Jesus (Avila) and St. Therese (Little Flowers) did not have fancy degrees and yet they are doctors of the Church.

That being said, the document “From conflict to Communion” is a great document that took many years of dedicated work by both sides. Its noble goal to want to have healthy and honest dialogues about past disputes is quite impressive. As importantly, the examples of introspection and the willingness to work toward Christian unity are quite wonderful. It also dispels misconceptions and misunderstandings on both sides. Having said all these, the document did point to the many bad things and beliefs that Luther did and believed. It did not change the fact that Luther was a heretic, his hatred views and the tremendous damages that Luther caused in the subsequent years, decades and centuries after his death.

On a different note, it’s a different topic. The Catholic is the only Church that Christ Himself founded and personally gave the key of heaven to its first pope (St. Peter). The Church should see herself as such when she dialogues with other churches (Christian bothers) that were/are/will be founded by men.

Below is the link to “From conflict to Communion”. I urge you to read it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html
 
[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

I agree with you. It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for those that use academics to disqualify and belittle the faithful from rendering common sense opinions. They use this method to simply shut down common sense and valid discussions/debates that should be had. I find it uncharitable, wrong, unchristian and downright disgusting. The Catholic Church does not belong to popes, bishops and priests. The Catholic Church belongs to Christ, and the Church ceases to be herself if she departs from Christ and His teachings.

It is only proper and appropriate to remind these arrogant/ignorant people that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself chose poor peasants and fishermen to be His apostles to spread His message of salvation to all corners of the world. St. Peter, whom Christ chose as his first pope and gave him the key to heaven, was a fisherman. Our Holy Mother herself was a poor peasant. Furthermore, it was no coincident that our Holy Mother chose to appear to the three poor peasant children (Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco) in Fatima, Portugal and to the poor girl (Bernadette Soubirous) in Lourdes, France to send her messages to the world. St. Teresa de Jesus (Avila) and St. Therese (Little Flowers) did not have fancy degrees and yet they are doctors of the Church.

That being said, the document “From conflict to Communion” is a great document that took many years of dedicated work by both sides. Its noble goal to want to have healthy and honest dialogues about past disputes is quite impressive. As importantly, the examples of introspection and the willingness to work toward Christian unity are quite wonderful. It also dispels misconceptions and misunderstandings on both sides. Having said all these, the document did point to the many bad things and beliefs that Luther did and believed. It did not change the fact that Luther was a heretic, his hatred views and the tremendous damages that Luther caused in the subsequent years, decades and centuries after his death.

On a different note, it’s a different topic. The Catholic is the only Church that Christ Himself founded and personally gave the key of heaven to its first pope (St. Peter). The Church should see herself as such when she dialogues with other churches (Christian bothers) that were/are/will be founded by men.

Below is the link to “From conflict to Communion”. I urge you to read it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html
There was someone here bragging about their theology and other degrees accusing me of causing a disturbance and implying that I’m not really qualified to make any contribution here simply for posting scripture passages recommended by Catholic Answers articles and for refusing to entertain him/her demanding me to answer 7 essay questions he/she posed to me. Not everyone has time to entertain demands from strangers online 😏.
 
Shouldn’t we humble ourselves and realize that the Vatican has a much better view and understanding of Luther than we do?
ITs worse than that. Apparently some here cannot even be bothered to find out what the Church actually says about Luther before criticizing the Church for her teachings.
 
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