"Vatican to Issue Stamp Featuring Martin Luther"

[Don_Ruggero]

Wow. Does Haeretica mean heretic? It appears this is mocking the “pseudo-reformation”…Oh wow. It appears the Vatican shares my view that celebrating the church’s break-up is bizzare at best Hillarious, after two posters lecture on how we should be professors before we dare make simple common sense observations about how bizzarre it is to celebrate one of the worst things that ever happened to you!

If you actually were following the Holy See and its various activities throughout the 500th anniversary commemoration, you would, in fact, then know that what is being depicted on the website that was posted in this thread is not the design of the stamp.

 

[Ginny89]

ITs worse than that. Apparently some here cannot even be bothered to find out what the Church actually says about Luther before criticizing the Church for her teachings.

Some need to find the definition of a teaching before stating blatant falsehoods.

 

[Ginny89]

If you actually were following the Holy See and its various activities throughout the 500th anniversary commemoration, you would, in fact, then know that what is being depicted on the website that was posted in this thread is not the design of the stamp.

So it isnt. Doesnt change my three opinions being:

-Celebrating the breakup of the church is bizzarre
-I don’t need to read anything to form such a common sense opinion
-Such a stamp would be unnecessarily provocative

 

[Ginny89]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

I agree with you. It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for those that use academics to disqualify and belittle the faithful from rendering common sense opinions. They use this method to simply shut down common sense and valid discussions/debates that should be had. I find it uncharitable, wrong, unchristian and downright disgusting. The Catholic Church does not belong to popes, bishops and priests. The Catholic Church belongs to Christ, and the Church ceases to be herself if she departs from Christ and His teachings.

It is only proper and appropriate to remind these arrogant/ignorant people that our Lord Jesus Christ Himself chose poor peasants and fishermen to be His apostles to spread His message of salvation to all corners of the world. St. Peter, whom Christ chose as his first pope and gave him the key to heaven, was a fisherman. Our Holy Mother herself was a poor peasant. Furthermore, it was no coincident that our Holy Mother chose to appear to the three poor peasant children (Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco) in Fatima, Portugal and to the poor girl (Bernadette Soubirous) in Lourdes, France to send her messages to the world. St. Teresa de Jesus (Avila) and St. Therese (Little Flowers) did not have fancy degrees and yet they are doctors of the Church.

That being said, the document “From conflict to Communion” is a great document that took many years of dedicated work by both sides. Its noble goal to want to have healthy and honest dialogues about past disputes is quite impressive. As importantly, the examples of introspection and the willingness to work toward Christian unity are quite wonderful. It also dispels misconceptions and misunderstandings on both sides. Having said all these, the document did point to the many bad things and beliefs that Luther did and believed. It did not change the fact that Luther was a heretic, his hatred views and the tremendous damages that Luther caused in the subsequent years, decades and centuries after his death.

On a different note, it’s a different topic. The Catholic is the only Church that Christ Himself founded and personally gave the key of heaven to its first pope (St. Peter). The Church should see herself as such when she dialogues with other churches (Christian bothers) that were/are/will be founded by men.

Below is the link to “From conflict to Communion”. I urge you to read it.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

Thank you! For the piece and the link. Will definitely read it.

 

[Ashford]

I have probably said this before on this forum, but I don’t understand the hate that a minority of Catholics seem to have for Luther. The Church does not teach or support that hate. As I said earlier, the last three Popes have all praised Luther. I actually think that the Church would consider honoring Luther in some more formal way, but holds off because of the strong feelings of a small minority.

Amen

 

[Ginny89]

Amen

A few falsehoods being bandied about.

There is no “church teaching” under criticism in this thread. There is a proposed singular action the propriety or justification of which has some people expressing concern, however.

The proposed action in discussion is not about Martin Luther at all. It is about the reformation, a movement and event and period in which millions of faithful were lead to leave the church and to start many illegitimate ecclessial comminities.

The idea that seeing the celebration of the reformation as bizzare or inappropriate means anyone “hates” Martin Luther is beyond ridiculous. One can actually consider the fruits of a person’s actions to be disastrous and unworthy of celebration without in any way, shape or form, hating that individual.

The church does not and has never taught that the reformation was a good thing. In fact, the church teaches in the Catechism that the succeeding generations of protestants are innocent of the sin of the first generation that committed the schism and herèsies.

You dont need to read elaborate documments on ecumenism to know that the reformation should not be celebrated by catholics. It was unambiguously a tragedy to us.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

You dont need to read elaborate documments on ecumenism to know that the reformation should not be celebrated by catholics. It was unambiguously a tragedy to us.

That is not your decision to make – it is the hierarchy’s decision

The Pope initiated our joint commemoration with the Lutherans on October 31 in Lund. In a full year of commemorative events around the world, Catholic Bishops in their dioceses co-preside at services of common prayer promulgated by the Holy See as well as events organised by the Holy See

JOINT STATEMENT
on the occasion of the Joint Catholic-Lutheran Commemoration of the Reformation

Lund, 31 October 2016

«Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me» (John 15:4).

With thankful hearts

With this Joint Statement, we express joyful gratitude to God for this moment of common prayer in the Cathedral of Lund, as we begin the year commemorating the five hundredth anniversary of the Reformation. Fifty years of sustained and fruitful ecumenical dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans have helped us to overcome many differences, and have deepened our mutual understanding and trust. At the same time, we have drawn closer to one another through joint service to our neighbours – often in circumstances of suffering and persecution. Through dialogue and shared witness we are no longer strangers. Rather, we have learned that what unites us is greater than what divides us.

Moving from conflict to communion

While we are profoundly thankful for the spiritual and theological gifts received through the Reformation, we also confess and lament before Christ that Lutherans and Catholics have wounded the visible unity of the Church. Theological differences were accompanied by prejudice and conflicts, and religion was instrumentalized for political ends. Our common faith in Jesus Christ and our baptism demand of us a daily conversion, by which we cast off the historical disagreements and conflicts that impede the ministry of reconciliation. While the past cannot be changed, what is remembered and how it is remembered can be transformed. We pray for the healing of our wounds and of the memories that cloud our view of one another. We emphatically reject all hatred and violence, past and present, especially that expressed in the name of religion. Today, we hear God’s command to set aside all conflict. We recognize that we are freed by grace to move towards the communion to which God continually calls us.

Our commitment to common witness

As we move beyond those episodes in history that burden us, we pledge to witness together to God’s merciful grace, made visible in the crucified and risen Christ. Aware that the way we relate to one another shapes our witness to the Gospel, we commit ourselves to further growth in communion rooted in Baptism, as we seek to remove the remaining obstacles that hinder us from attaining full unity. Christ desires that we be one, so that the world may believe (cf. John 17:21).

Many members of our communities yearn to receive the Eucharist at one table, as the concrete expression of full unity. We experience the pain of those who share their whole lives, but cannot share God’s redeeming presence at the Eucharistic table. We acknowledge our joint pastoral responsibility to respond to the spiritual thirst and hunger of our people to be one in Christ. We long for this wound in the Body of Christ to be healed. This is the goal of our ecumenical endeavours, which we wish to advance, also by renewing our commitment to theological dialogue.

We pray to God that Catholics and Lutherans will be able to witness together to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, inviting humanity to hear and receive the good news of God’s redeeming action. We pray to God for inspiration, encouragement and strength so that we may stand together in service, upholding human dignity and rights, especially for the poor, working for justice, and rejecting all forms of violence. God summons us to be close to all those who yearn for dignity, justice, peace and reconciliation. Today in particular, we raise our voices for an end to the violence and extremism which affect so many countries and communities, and countless sisters and brothers in Christ. We urge Lutherans and Catholics to work together to welcome the stranger, to come to the aid of those forced to flee because of war and persecution, and to defend the rights of refugees and those who seek asylum.

/…/

One in Christ

On this auspicious occasion, we express our gratitude to our brothers and sisters representing the various Christian World Communions and Fellowships who are present and join us in prayer. As we recommit ourselves to move from conflict to communion, we do so as part of the one Body of Christ, into which we are incorporated through Baptism. We invite our ecumenical partners to remind us of our commitments and to encourage us. We ask them to continue to pray for us, to walk with us, to support us in living out the prayerful commitments we express today.

Calling upon Catholics and Lutherans worldwide

We call upon all Lutheran and Catholic parishes and communities to be bold and creative, joyful and hopeful in their commitment to continue the great journey ahead of us. Rather than conflicts of the past, God’s gift of unity among us shall guide cooperation and deepen our solidarity. By drawing close in faith to Christ, by praying together, by listening to one another, by living Christ’s love in our relationships, we, Catholics and Lutherans, open ourselves to the power of the Triune God. Rooted in Christ and witnessing to him, we renew our determination to be faithful heralds of God’s boundless love for all humanity.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

http://media02.radiovaticana.va/photo/2016/10/31/AP3722933_Articolo.jpg

(Vatican Radio) Pope Francis and Bishop Mounib Younan, President of the Lutheran World Federation signed a Joint Statement on Monday in which Catholics and Lutherans pledged to pursue their dialogue in order to remove the remaining obstacles that hinder them from reaching full unity. They also stressed their commitment to common witness on behalf of the poor, the needy and the victims of injustice. The Declaration was signed during the ecumenical prayer service held in Lund’s Lutheran Cathedral on the first day of the Pope’s visit to Sweden.

en.radiovaticana.va/news/2016/10/31/pope_and_president_of_lwf_sign_joint_statement/1269150

 

[Ginny89]

That is not your decision to make – it is the hierarchy’s decision

What a strawman. No one here is confused about who is making the decision. We are free to note its impropriety and bizzarreness, however, and THAT is my decision.

 

[pnewton]

Furthermore, these are earthly affairs, and stamps are issued by a civil government.
.

I do not understand this point.

Since you agree that the above stamps would be okay, as I assume most would, then I think it possible to recognize that “celebration” is not the only cause for issuing a stamp. Besides, what exactly are the “rules” for what stamps should be issued? I didn’t know any existed.

Then, I do not get why anyone is arguing over a stamp. It is like something from Eye of the Tiber. It is really kind of humorous to me.

 

[EIF5A]

I do not understand this point.

Since you agree that the above stamps would be okay, as I assume most would, then I think it possible to recognize that “celebration” is not the only cause for issuing a stamp. Besides, what exactly are the “rules” for what stamps should be issued? I didn’t know any existed.

What message would a Luther stamp send to the average person?

He was a fine person? He brought about good in the world?

Protestant or Catholic, it doesn’t matter?

The Civil War is part of American history. We honor those who fought for a noble purpose.

Why are we honoring Luther…?

What’s the purpose when it’s quite obvious there will be questions and confusion among the laity?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Furthermore, these are earthly affairs, and stamps are issued by a civil government.

The Vatican is the spiritual center of all Catholics. I just don’t know what the purpose of the alleged stamp is.

How can we pray to end heresy and bring unity to all Christians while we “honor” the memory of Martin Luther? He started out wanting to rid of corruption, but later, things didn’t turn out so well.

The Vatican City State has a civil government…it has a postal system that is integrated into the EU. It also issues Vatican specific Euros. It issues passports. It has a national anthem. And, of course, it has diplomatic relations with something over 170 nations…I have lost the up to date count amidst the interests of retirement.

As with so many things in history, the assessments of persons and events can change from one era to the next, particularly as perspectives change or as they come into different focus.

The 500th anniversary of the Reformation is a wonderful occasion for people to come to know how very differently we, as Catholics, view the events of the 16th century from, let us say, how they were viewed by us decades ago when I was young. We have come a very long way since then…thanks be to God.

I am always amused when people think the 50 years of dialogue – to say nothing of those who worked on the dialogue – have accomplished or changed nothing. Well, yes, quite a lot, actually, has been accomplished and has changed.

Where was everyone here today in 1983 when we acclaimed Martin Luther “Witness to Jesus Christ”…when the Holy See was marking his 500th birthday? Or in 2005 when Pope Benedict made a pilgrimage to spots associated with Martin Luther, when he was home in Germany?

 

[TMC]

Some need to find the definition of a teaching before stating blatant falsehoods.

You have admitted that you are criticizing the Church without actually bothering to find out what the Church has to say on the topic. That makes everything else you say on the topic meaningless.

 

[TMC]

A few falsehoods being bandied about.

There is no “church teaching” under criticism in this thread. There is a proposed singular action the propriety or justification of which has some people expressing concern, however.

The proposed action in discussion is not about Martin Luther at all. It is about the reformation, a movement and event and period in which millions of faithful were lead to leave the church and to start many illegitimate ecclessial comminities.

The idea that seeing the celebration of the reformation as bizzare or inappropriate means anyone “hates” Martin Luther is beyond ridiculous. One can actually consider the fruits of a person’s actions to be disastrous and unworthy of celebration without in any way, shape or form, hating that individual.

The church does not and has never taught that the reformation was a good thing. In fact, the church teaches in the Catechism that the succeeding generations of protestants are innocent of the sin of the first generation that committed the schism and herèsies.

You dont need to read elaborate documments on ecumenism to know that the reformation should not be celebrated by catholics. It was unambiguously a tragedy to us.

How would you know what is or is not being criticized, when you have admitted that you refuse to actually find out what the Church teaches on Luther or the Reformation? Your celebration of theological ignorance is stunning.

 

[abucs]

One can actually consider the fruits of a person’s actions to be disastrous and unworthy of celebration without in any way, shape or form, hating that individual.

Of course. One of the worrying trends of the new secular religion is that if you disagree with me then i define you as hating…. and then because you hate i can shout you down and try to exclude your views while thinking i am moral in doing so.

What a strawman. No one here is confused about who is making the decision. We are free to note its impropriety and bizzarreness, however, and THAT is my decision.

and of course, absent a lobotomy, you are quite entitled and capable of doing so and nobody but the most arrogant authoritarian would try to stop you articulating your opinion.

 

[billy15]

I think we all need to take a step back and settle down here; no one is calling for a celebration of the Reformation, especially the Church. There’s a big difference between a “commemoration” and a “celebration”, as Mr. Keating so eloquently put it. How could any Christian possibly celebrate the fracturing of the Body of Christ? We can only hope and pray that this 500th anniversary will ultimately lead closer to a full reconciliation, much like we’ve seen with the three Personal Ordinariate which utilize the Anglican Use. That is ecumenism fully and truly realized. Fr. Dwight Longennecker raises the question about the possibility of similar “Lutheran Ordinariates” so that our Lutheran brothers and sisters may finally come home to Rome, and ecumenism here may be fully realized.

And I’ve raised this question before, but who on this thread has hate for Luther? Where is it? I think Luther being “praised” is a strong word. What should he be “praised” for? Furthermore, why should the Catholic Church be “honoring Luther in some more formal way”? What exactly is this “honor” that should be given him? What is the “formal way” in which this should be done? I ask in all seriousness, because I can’t think of a single good reason this man should be honored in our churches.

Instead, I’d rather honor and emulate such people who never forsook the Church, who never forsook their vows, and who never denounced the Rock upon which Christ’s holy Church was built upon. Instead of honoring Luther, I’ll honor the memories of such people as the Martyrs of Gorkum. Saints Nicholas Pieck and his companions were executed in 1572. These men were true witnesses to the Gospel, never abandoning our Lord and the teachings of His holy Church. All 19 of these saints were hanged, and then their bodies were mutilated immediately afterwards, some of them still breathing while this took place. As Butler’s noted, “these men gave their lives for the Catholic faith in general, and for the truth of its Eucharistic teaching and the primacy of the Roman pontiff in particular.”

Luther may have held on to his belief in the Eucharist, but he castigated the Roman pontiff in an extremely foul manner. St. Nicholas and his companions are honored every year in the Catholic Church on July 9th.

Another man I’d rather “honor” instead of Luther, also from the 16th century is a man who’s feast day we just celebrated yesterday, Blessed William Patenson, who was beatified more recently in 1929. This man witnessed beautifully to our Lord, by converting and reconciling six other prisoners to Holy Mother Church before they were executed. That’s right, some of those men had left the Church during the aftermath of the Reformation, but Blessed William was able to bring them back into full communion with the Church before they were executed. And because Bd. William had done this, he was cut down early during his hanging, and was drawn and quartered while still alive. Did Luther do anything to bring any souls back to the Catholic faith and the rock that Church is built on in the days before his death? I will instead be honoring Bd. William, and praying for his intercession tonight.

I do wonder if Bd. William has ever had his face on a stamp… but either way, I see no reason to give any honor to Luther when we already have a cloud of witnesses before us that we should duly honor and venerate. There are so many more holy men and women from the 16th century that I haven’t mentioned. And that’s not hate, that’s just the truth. If only a “minority” (how one quantifies that is beyond me) feel this way, then maybe the so-called “majority” would do well to remember and honor our own heroes before we seek to honor those that did not live a life worthy of imitating.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I am actually quite fond of Martin Luther. I respect his work and thought very much. But this stamp I find hilarious. First and foremost, everyone has their own take on Luther: WLF, ELCA, LCMS, traditionalist Catholics, liberal Catholics, Southern Baptists, etc. etc. As I understand it, the ELCA has actually stated they don’t really even base their doctrine exclusively on Luther anymore.

I personally think Luther would laugh until tears flowed into his beer. After all that…I get a bloody Vatican stamp. 600 years later.

I honestly don’t know what Luther would think of the 21st century Catholic Church, what is up with it now, under Francis. I see Francis as more in the ELCA category than the LCMS. And I think Luther would today be much more in line with the LCMS, in terms of doctrine anyway. (I think he would have long since dropped the Pope Anti-Christ bit, but as to whether he would be a Roman Catholic I don’t know.) Lastly, he is to my mind incredibly misunderstood by most Catholics, both his most violent detractors and his most open sympathizers. Ironically, the Popes get him - JP II, Benedict, Francis.

 

[pnewton]

What …?

He was a fine person? He brought about good in the world?

Protestant or Catholic, it doesn’t matter?

Why …?

What’s the purpose …?

So many questions. If I knew the rules for issuing stamps, I might answer them. I do know that celebration is not the only purpose. You mentioned honoring people. I do not know if that is the only reason. I know that Google changes its logo for all sorts of reason. Maybe they people there could offer insight. It would be as reasonable as any opinion I could offer from ignorance.

 

[Ginny89]

You have admitted that you are criticizing the Church without actually bothering to find out what the Church has to say on the topic. That makes everything else you say on the topic meaningless.

Oh please. You have falsely claimed that church teaching is being criticized. That makes everything you have to say on the topic meaningless.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

It is my opinion, and I say this to my Orthodox brothers and sisters as well, that we Christians need to stop fighting yesterday’s battles.