Vatican urges welcome, with a warning, for traditionalists [John Allen]

[JReducation]

Let’s do this with great love, but small pieces.

The problem with the Fraternity of St. Peter is that a lot of the priests there have completely pre-Vatican II mentality.

You’ll have to define what you mean by a “pre-Vatican II mentality”. I’m a Franciscan who belongs to one of the reformed communities. We’re trying to get back to the 13th century way of life. Not everything that came before Vatican II was great, nor was it all bad. The Church did not end in 1962, but it was not born in 1962 either. Help me understand what you mean by a pre-Vatican II mentality.

Most of the priests frown upon NFP, almost in any circumstance.

I belong to a religious community that does nothing but preach and teach the Gospel of Life. I can tell you with great surety that NFP was meant to be used with great caution, after a lot of prayer, never for an extended amount of time, and only for the most serious reasons. The term says it all Natural Family Planning. It’s not Catholic Birth Control. As Catholics, we remain open to the gift of life, regardless of how many children God sends us. We abstain from sexual intercourse with our spouses when it is necessary to do so and only when both parties agree. Your bodies belong to each other. In a nutshell, this is what the Fathers should be teaching you. For more information, you can contact

Natural Family Planning Program
Secretariat for Laity, Marriage, Family Life & Youth
3211 4th Street NE
Washington, DC 20017

Email: nfp@usccb.org
Telephone: 202-541-3040

You can also go to www.usccb.org and look to the left. Click on Life Issues. You will find much useful information on this subject and all of it is orthodox.

The people that attend the FSSP masses frown upon a women wearing pants, or working at all.

This is not something endorsed by the Catholic Church. Nor should it be something that is promoted by the FSSP. I cannot speak for individual priests. Human beings are what we are. Some of us do and say things that are over and beyond what the Lord expects of us.

The best example that I can give you is St. Giana Molla. She was a wife, mother, doctor, Catholic and wore pants. Like her there have been other great Catholic women, who are not saints, but were exemplary Catholics. One of them is Maria Montessori. I believe that she was the first female physician in Italy. She too was a mother and a devout Catholic.

I’m a religious, but the Executive Director of Respect Life for my diocese is a devout and holy woman who is a mother, wife and holds a key position in the diocese.

If you look at this forum, one of the senior apologists is a woman, Michelle Arnold and she’s an excellent apologist.

Most of our Catholic schools are staffed by women who are wives and mothers, as are our Catholic hospitals.

If the Church adopted this mindset, it would have to close down and limit its operations to Sunday mass. The fact is that the Catholic Church runs on women who are wives and mothers. These women are the largest number of employees in the Catholic Church. There are more of them than there are bishops, priests and brothers put together. If we took the Catholic School teachers alone, we have an army of Catholic working wives and mothers. Dr. Alice Von Hildebrand was a wife, Catholic professional and very anti-feminist movement.

If I followed the advice of the FSSP I’d be completely in debt, living in a small cramped apartment, and my wife would be suicidal. The FSSP is not for me!

I’m not sure what they’re advising you, so I can’t speak to that. However, I will quote Mother Teresa who said that we must live simply so that others may simply live. We have to examine ourselves and our possessions, maybe our homes too. “Do I need this or do I want this?” There is a difference. Our lives cannot be driven by what we want.

I’ll offer a simple example. I share a 1999 Nissan with four brothers. We live in three houses. The car is used by the person who needs it the most. The rest of us walk, take buses, get rides from friends. The car works fine. The first time that we had to put it into the hospital in 11 years was last month. We spent about $400.00 to fix a few things. Well $400.00 amortized over 11-years is not a lot of money. It’s less than $40 per year. Would we like one of those new cars that has a built in GPS, TV or whatever that thing is where you can watch movies, individual AC settings and other gadgets? Nope.

I live in a three-bedroom townhouse with another brother in a poor neighborhood. We don’t have a dining room. The third bedroom serves as the chapel. There is not much of a backyard. To be alone, we walk around the lake outside of the house. Would we like to live in a large monastery as do Benedictines? No. We don’t need it. The Benedictines do. The amenities offered by a monastery are necessary for the life of a monk. We’re not monks.

Before I was a religious, I was a widower and a father of two. My kids and I were in the mission in the Amazon for three years. They did not have all the comforts of home in the USA. Today, they have a great understanding for poverty and people of other cultures.

My point is that we must learn to tailor our material possessions, even our homes, to our needs, not our wants. Holiness is achieved through detachment. Just look at the great saints. They were the most detached people, even those who were parents. Look at a woman like Elizabeth Ann Seton. She was the mother of five. She lived with the minimum, ran a religious community, founded schools, orphanages and a hospital. How did she do this? She believed in miracles.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[yosupman]

JR,

My pastor is the 2nd command in the diocese where i live. He is orthodox, and he never said you can only use NFP for a short period of time. My wife and I are open to life, but the decision whether to have children or not is a decision for my wife and I to make, within the bounds of Catholic morality. The decision is not for a priest to make.

 

[pataburd]

However, there are also some unreasonable wishes or desires.

Wanting to see the EF promoted. That was not part of SP or UE. There seems to be a belief on the part of some people that we have a duty to promote the EF. However, this begs the question. Promote the EF to do away with the OF? If that’s the meaning of promote, that is an unreasonable desire, because it is not what the Holy Father said. To inform people that it’s permissible, is legitimate and to publish places and times where people can attend.

JR,
“Promoting” the EF is, I think, just as much an act of self-preservation on the part of the laity whose legitimate desire to celebrate the TLM has been in most cases deliberately thwarted/frustrated. Add to that the predominantly negative press that the TLM regularly receives from nearly every diocesan quarter and the resistance mounted by the very bishops and priests that SP and UE is intended to instruct, engage and mobilize on behalf of those desiring the TLM.

The TLM community (about 50 to 60 strong) of which I am a member was denied access to a church, essentially because the parish council overrode the wishes of the pastor. This “political hot potato” has been lobbed back to the bishop. This most recent “stone wall” process has been going on for well over a year. We have a Franciscan priest saying the TLM for us right now, thanks be to God(!), but technically we have not had a (diocesan) pastor in several years.

Under these conditions, it’s either “promotion” or “termination” for us. In fact, I would be glad to participate in a cohort of TLM folks who would sit down with the parish council and “promote” the TLM. For me, in this case, “promote” would simply mean address the misunderstanding and confront the bias toward what we “traditionalists” are about in as forthright and charitable a way as possible.

Plus, I think if people want to be honest, they will come to terms with the differences–some of them stark and too important to ignore or trivialize–between the OF (at least in its commonly “abused” rendition) and the EF. Otherwise, it will simply be “business as usual” and a pollyannaish blind eye to the grave problems that continue to plague the Roman Liturgy and foment the current “Crisis of Faith”.

Cordially,
PAB

 

[JReducation]

JR,
“Promoting” the EF is, I think, just as much an act of self-preservation on the part of the laity whose legitimate desire to celebrate the TLM has been in most cases deliberately thwarted/frustrated. Add to that the predominantly negative press that the TLM regularly receives from nearly every diocesan quarter and the resistance mounted by the very bishops and priests that SP and UE is intended to instruct, engage and mobilize on behalf of those desiring the TLM.

The TLM community (about 50 to 60 strong) of which I am a member was denied access to a church, essentially because the parish council overrode the wishes of the pastor. This “political hot potato” has been lobbed back to the bishop. This most recent “stone wall” process has been going on for well over a year. We have a Franciscan priest saying the TLM for us right now, thanks be to God(!), but technically we have not had a (diocesan) pastor in several years.

Under these conditions, it’s either “promotion” or “termination” for us. In fact, I would be glad to participate in a cohort of TLM folks who would sit down with the parish council and “promote” the TLM. For me, in this case, “promote” would simply mean address the misunderstanding and confront the bias toward what we “traditionalists” are about in as forthright and charitable a way as possible.

Plus, I think if people want to be honest, they will come to terms with the differences–some of them stark and too important to ignore or trivialize–between the OF (at least in its commonly “abused” rendition) and the EF. Otherwise, it will simply be “business as usual” and a pollyannaish blind eye to the grave problems that continue to plague the Roman Liturgy and foment the current “Crisis of Faith”.

Cordially,
PAB

Two things, one has nothing to do with the subject. Just a minor correction. You have a Franciscan Friar who celebrates your mass or a Franciscan Brother. Some communities prefer friar and others brother. Let’s be faithful to the whole of Catholic Tradition. The Franciscan family is trying to get away from that language, because it’s not what St. Francis had in mind.

Second, I believe that we’re saying the same thing, but our difference is in the way that we define “promote”. For some people, promote constitutes to market with the intent of taking over. That is not what SP and UE had in mind. The Tridentine form must remain the extraordinary form unless some pope changes his mind. There is no known plan to make it the ordinary form.

If we’re talking about informing people about the EF, letting them know that it’s available, when and where, that’s not promoting. That’s providing information that people have a right to know.

As to your parish council, I’m not in your parish, so I don’t understand how that works. Parish councils are supposed to be advisory, not juridical. They are not boards of directors. In any case, that would be a great place to “promote” as in educate to address their concerns. I’ve never seen that decided by a parish council. I’m at a loss there. Normally, the pastor makes laws for his parish and above him, the bishop. If he’s a religious, there would be a superior who works cooperatively with the bishop. I’m confused on that one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

JR,

My pastor is the 2nd command in the diocese where i live. He is orthodox, and he never said you can only use NFP for a short period of time. My wife and I are open to life, but the decision whether to have children or not is a decision for my wife and I to make, within the bounds of Catholic morality. The decision is not for a priest to make.

First of all, it’s Br. JR or Brother. Second, you must make sure to ask all the right questions of a priest, brother, sister or lay person who is well trained in this area of moral theology. One question that people don’t always ask is whether NFP can be used indefinately. There are rules on that. That’s why I gave you that link and that address, so that you could get the answers from the experts.

If you believe that you have enough information, that’s your call to make. I was just trying to be helpful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[pataburd]

PAB - I am a very orthodox Catholic. I love the TLM, and also the novus ordo. I really should have said SSPX mentality. Basically exclusionary. If my wife doesn’t dress in a “little house on the prairie” dress, and I don’t have 9 kids, then we won’t fit in.

ysm–I hope you don’t mind my “acronynimically” nicknaming you! : )

Thank you. Yes, I think I better understand what you mean. A friend of mine, and fellow TLM devotee, depicts such exclusionary behavior as “quasi-Calvanistic” in its execution.

My wife is a cradle Catholic who was ill-catechized, and who wears neither veil nor long dress to the Sunday Mass. I am a zealous convert. We have no children (by virtue of physiological defect). So yes, we, too, feel the discomfort you describe–my wife perhaps more keenly than I–but we can’t help but love the TLM and, when it’s all said and done, appreciate the genuine love in those who surround us: chapel veils, long dresses and lots of kids–the “whole nine yards”.

Honestly, sometimes I’ve felt and shown a shade embarrassed, and actually wished my wife would don veil and long skirt, but that has more to do with charity finding elocution in modesty than our “buckling” under conformist pressure. And at the deeper level, we’re the beneficiaries of charity and not the victims of hypocrisy. Yes, I have been reproved, yet have ultimately seen in that reproof the wisdom and love of God. : )

People tend to equate the dress and comportment of those who have come to typify the Traditional Latin Mass as unduly “severe” or “anachronistic”, and I think that characterization fuels an uncharitable and unjust popular “caricature-ization” of the “Traditionalist”.

To me, it becomes a study of the “equal and opposite reaction” of the Catholic Faithful to the impinging forces of evil in the world. Many of us choose not to reckon with the actual intensity of that evil (as “calibrated”, if you will, by the gravity of the Traditionalist), because it demands a brutally frank assessment of our own response to evil, to our own evils, as well. “Holiness” tendencies always meet with mixed reactions.

Frankly, and for example, it makes perfect sense to me, given the great importance of the Mass, that I should be “dressed to the nines” whenever possible, but I’m not. And, for me, that can be a useful cue for self-examination. My friend wears a suit and felt hat to Sunday Mass, and I think it’s a beautiful expression of reverence and awareness of what the Mass is.

Anyway, yosupman, take heart. You are not alone!

Cordially,
PAB

 

[pataburd]

Two things, one has nothing to do with the subject. Just a minor correction. You have a Franciscan Friar who celebrates your mass or a Franciscan Brother. Some communities prefer friar and others brother. Let’s be faithful to the whole of Catholic Tradition. The Franciscan family is trying to get away from that language, because it’s not what St. Francis had in mind.

Second, I believe that we’re saying the same thing, but our difference is in the way that we define “promote”. For some people, promote constitutes to market with the intent of taking over. That is not what SP and UE had in mind. The Tridentine form must remain the extraordinary form unless some pope changes his mind. There is no known plan to make it the ordinary form.

If we’re talking about informing people about the EF, letting them know that it’s available, when and where, that’s not promoting. That’s providing information that people have a right to know.

As to your parish council, I’m not in your parish, so I don’t understand how that works. Parish councils are supposed to be advisory, not juridical. They are not boards of directors. In any case, that would be a great place to “promote” as in educate to address their concerns. I’ve never seen that decided by a parish council. I’m at a loss there. Normally, the pastor makes laws for his parish and above him, the bishop. If he’s a religious, there would be a superior who works cooperatively with the bishop. I’m confused on that one.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Br.JR,
(1) The operative title would be “Franciscan Friar”. Thank you for the correction.

(2) My usage of the term “promote” would include apologia when appropriate, in addition to the logistical “if”, “when” and “where” of the TLM. Ofttimes the “if” is not granted because of common misunderstandings about the TLM and those who desire it.

(3) As to the goings-on of the parish council under discussion, this is typical of the bureaucratic framework that has effectively undermined hierarchical governance in all three of the dioceses that I frequent. It’s a secular, corporate-style governing structure, plain and simple. And those appointed to critical positions, “positions of power” if you will, are frequently and stridently opposed to the TLM, not just practically but also principally.

Ironically, the bishops themselves have put–or have at best allowed–the bureaucracies firmly–and obstinately–in place, abrogating their own primary duties to teach and govern in the process. The veritable maze of offices, councils, committees, sub-committees and the like have, for all intents and purposes, put the bishops both out of touch and out of reach of the Faithful.

What we have here is undeniably abnormal and dysfunctional–but it carries on “24/7” as the idiom goes. And as such bodes ill for those with an affinity and devotion to the TLM.

Cordially,
PAB

 

[tjt3]

JR, If you dont recoginze the relationship between the points I made and your statements about what people wish and desire in their celebrations of the Eucharist then obviously I am wasting my time trying to make the point, particularly the four wishes and desires that you listed. As to the splitting hairs about the differance between congregations, fraternities and orders such as the Dominicans etc. I am very familiar with canon law and am well aware of the relationships they have with local ordinary. Now that you mentioned you belong to one of those fringe groups that fall under public and private associations canon codes 298 thru 607 I understand your fixation on relationships and details. I know of another group in New Hampshire called Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary that havent grown very much in the last few years. There are as a matter of fact certain orders that are congregations that answer
to the Pope such as the Passionists and then there are the Benedictines who, not an order at all since each abbey is autonomous. All this is getting away from the original discussion and I
only endeavered to clear up the actual status of the FSSP from the way you presented them.
The discussion was about what people and you want, and my point simply is it dose`nt matter
what you want. As far as the Chruch is concerned, it is what it is. If it is changed for whatever
reason, it is not going to be changed to meet the driving distances to church or the particular
wants and desires of the faithful. Pax Tom T

I’m unsure of the point that you’re trying to make. My point is that they are not consecrated religious. Therefore, they don’t have the freedom that religious orders and religious congregations have.

Even when a religious order or a religious congregation is erected in a diocese, it maintains its autonomy from the local bishop. If the order or congregation has priests, the bishop grants faculties for those priests to hear the confessions of the faithful, preach in his parishes, and witness to weddings in his diocese. Aside from that, what they do is really in the hands of the Major Superior. They can come and go with much greater freedom than a clerical fraternity of apostolic life.

In the case of the FSSP, their Major Superiors answer to the Ecclesia Dei Commission and to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic LIfe. Religious orders of men are exempt from the authority of the local bishop, other than for faculties. For example, a bishop may not enter the house or chapels of exempt religious without the permission of the superior. He cannot strip a member of a religious order of either the clerical state or the vows. That has to be initiated by the superior. He cannot ordain any religious without the permission of the superior.

They answer to the Holy Father or any other authority whom he delegates. Religious Congregations answer to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life. As was the example made very clear with the unfortunate Notre Dame situation. As upset as the bishops were, there was nothing that they could legally do to Fr. Jenkins. He’s an exempt religious serving in an institution that is also exempt from the control of the bishops.

These relationships must always be charitable and fair, in addition to cooperative. It does not always work that way. That’s the unfortunate part, but that’s the goal: fair, charitable and cooperative.

Because the FSSP are not consecrated religious, they are also more focussed on pastoral work than religious. This is actually a plus for any parish that they administer, because they don’t have to run out of the confessional for a community meal or community prayer. They don’t have to close down the parish for a week to attend a community retreat or community chapter. Societies of Apostolic Life don’t function this way. Their life revolves around the ministry, in this case, it’s priestly ministry. The life of a cosecrated religious revolves around the rule and constitutions of his community. The amount of time given to ministry and the type of ministry is going to be determined by those documents and it’s always going to be split with the common life to a greater or lesser degree, depending on the vision of the founder. This gives the religious greater freedom from ministry, because even if the religious is a priest, the apostolate is a part of his life. In the case of the FSSP, the apostolate is their vocation. They are less free to get away from it. I can’t imagine a priest of the Fraternity of St. Peter asking to be assigned to a soup kitchen or to work as the community cook or to become a hermit… These freedoms are available to the consecrated religious. If he and his superior feel that such a change is for the good, then it happens, because it’s not contrary to the charism of religious life. No bishop would question it. The bishop may be concerned, because it’s one less man in his diocese. These are some of the freedoms to which I refer.

Given these differences, there are going to be some things we can expect of one and not of the other. That was my point. No one is attacking the FSSP.

This has never been in question

What does the above have to do with the subject that we’re discussing?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Cider]

I can’t be the only one sick and tired of being warned and condescended to by people threatened by the TLM.

 

[yosupman]

I can’t be the only one sick and tired of being warned and condescended to by people threatened by the TLM.

Cider, I’m just saying what my experience has been. I ain’t doing no condensation.

 

[Cider]

I wasn’t referring to you

 

[yosupman]

I wasn’t referring to you

Cool, cause when I was single, I attended the latin mass for most of my adult life. When I got married then my wife and I attend a very reverent novus ordo church.

If I could, my family would move to Clear Creek Oklahoma, and I’d attend daily mass with the traditional benedictines. I’d learn latin so I can say the daily monastic breviary. But, hey, I have to work and provide for my family.

 

[rlg94086]

This is pretty cool. I fully agree with the Vatican on this one. That said, I have never attended an extraordinary form Mass even though I do consider myself to be a traditional Catholic. I would love to attend one at some point in the future though.

I’ve been to two EF Masses. Personally, I prefer the OF…in Latin…ad orientem.

I call it the Fessio Mass - catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0540.html

 

[tjt3]

Let’s do this with great love, but small pieces.

JR,
With all due repect sir, Im not quite sure what the history of your background or your life of austerity has to do with the current thread. I am sure that your life, being dedicated to the Franciscan charism is very praiseworthy and admirable. Thankfully there are many paths to salvation. I really didnt intend to get hung up on semantics and the only reason I mentioned
the FSSP in the beginning of this discussion was to inform readers that pertaining to the discussion of Tridentine and Novus Ordo Masses the FSSP only celebrates the pre 1962
Latin Rite if that is what they were looking for. The Holy Father stated that both forms are valid and acceptable and are not opposed to each other but rather should compliment each other.
I`ll be leaving the thread as I think the subject has been fully discussed.
Blessings to you
Tom T

You’ll have to define what you mean by a “pre-Vatican II mentality”. I’m a Franciscan who belongs to one of the reformed communities. We’re trying to get back to the 13th century way of life. Not everything that came before Vatican II was great, nor was it all bad. The Church did not end in 1962, but it was not born in 1962 either. Help me understand what you mean by a pre-Vatican II mentality.

I belong to a religious community that does nothing but preach and teach the Gospel of Life. I can tell you with great surety that NFP was meant to be used with great caution, after a lot of prayer, never for an extended amount of time, and only for the most serious reasons. The term says it all Natural Family Planning. It’s not Catholic Birth Control. As Catholics, we remain open to the gift of life, regardless of how many children God sends us. We abstain from sexual intercourse with our spouses when it is necessary to do so and only when both parties agree. Your bodies belong to each other. In a nutshell, this is what the Fathers
I’ll offer a simple example. I share a 1999 Nissan with four brothers. We live in three houses. The car is used by the person who needs it the most. The rest of us walk, take buses, get rides from friends. The car works fine. The first time that we had to put it into the hospital in 11 years was last month. We spent about $400.00 to fix a few things. Well $400.00 amortized over 11-years is not a lot of money. It’s less than $40 per year. Would we like one of those new cars that has a built in GPS, TV or whatever that thing is where you can watch movies, individual AC settings and other gadgets? Nope.

I live in a three-bedroom townhouse with another brother in a poor neighborhood. We don’t have a dining room. The third bedroom serves as the chapel. There is not much of a backyard. To be alone, we walk around the lake outside of the house. Would we like to live in a large monastery as do Benedictines? No. We don’t need it. The Benedictines do. The amenities offered by a monastery are necessary for the life of a monk. We’re not monks.

Before I was a religious, I was a widower and a father of two. My kids and I were in the mission in the Amazon for three years. They did not have all the comforts of home in the USA. Today, they have a great understanding for poverty and people of other cultures.

My point is that we must learn to tailor our material possessions, even our homes, to our needs, not our wants. Holiness is achieved through detachment. Just look at the great saints. They were the most detached people, even those who were parents. Look at a woman like Elizabeth Ann Seton. She was the mother of five. She lived with the minimum, ran a religious community, founded schools, orphanages and a hospital. How did she do this? She believed in miracles.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

tjt3:
I was trying to clarify a common error which is often made about the FSSP and which neither they nor religious like. That is that they are not religious order nor a religious congregation.

The reason that none of us like the confusion is because with these states in life come certain obligations and rights. They don’t want to be bound to any of the obligations that religious are bound to anymore than religious want to be bound to the obligations that secular clerics are bound to.

Today, because transportation is easier, people go back and forth between one parish and another and even across diocesan lines. They take with them their experience. Often, they expect things according to that experience. They are disappointed when it does not happen or they push for what they want, when the other person cannot deliver, not because he does not want to deliver, but because he cannot deliver what is being asked of him.

That being said, I do have one question of those who are personally familiar with the FSSP. I have never met one, because we don’t have them in my area. I have met SSPX. We have some of their guys here.

My question is this. Is it true that the FSSP priests celebrate both the OF and EF?

I have heard some people say that they only celebrate the Ef and I have heard others say that they celebrate both. I don’t know any FSSP priests to ask them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[yosupman]

I was trying to clarify a common error which is often made about the FSSP and which neither they nor religious like. That is that they are not religious order nor a religious congregation.

The reason that none of us like the confusion is because with these states in life come certain obligations and rights. They don’t want to be bound to any of the obligations that religious are bound to anymore than religious want to be bound to the obligations that secular clerics are bound to.

Today, because transportation is easier, people go back and forth between one parish and another and even across diocesan lines. They take with them their experience. Often, they expect things according to that experience. They are disappointed when it does not happen or they push for what they want, when the other person cannot deliver, not because he does not want to deliver, but because he cannot deliver what is being asked of him.

That being said, I do have one question of those who are personally familiar with the FSSP. I have never met one, because we don’t have them in my area. I have met SSPX. We have some of their guys here.

My question is this. Is it true that the FSSP priests celebrate both the OF and EF?

I have heard some people say that they only celebrate the Ef and I have heard others say that they celebrate both. I don’t know any FSSP priests to ask them.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I live in Kansas and to my knowledge the FSSP here do not celebrate the Novus Ordo. It doesn’t mean by their own rules that they can’t, but I don’t think the priests here pray the Novus Ordo mass.

Whats the point in being FSSP if you have to celebrate the Novus Ordo? Doesn’t really make sense.