Vatican warns traditionalists not to ordain priests

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I must again emphasize that it appears you are making more of what the Holy Father is saying that what is actually there. The popes do not generally beat around the bush, and if there were errors to be condemned, the current Holy Father especially would be the first to specify them. The fact that he does not seems to indicate that the matters of doctrinal disagreement are still be flesched out, and that is the nature both of the SSPX situation and of the foreward going dialogue. I cannot see how you can read so much into such a brief statement (two errors, no less!).

Your statements on Church teaching regarding salvation appear to be very much in error, and hold no correlation to the traditional teaching.

First, the statements about the SSPX view about EENS are vague, so I cannot tell what point you are trying to make about them. Nevertheless, the Church teaching is clear, and the interpretation you seem to present here is not it. How can Vatican II “clarify” a view that is set in stone dogmatically? The “narrow” view of formal membership is the orthodox view. While it is true some rare exceptions apply, they do not apply to most situations, including rejection of Catholicism and regular membership in a non-Catholic sect.

How else does one reinterprit this:

“The Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Cantate Domino, Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence)

This was infallibly defined by the Church. How does one clarify this to have another meaning? It seems the example you gave of calling grass orange etc. applies here in triplicate. Numerous pontiffs have expounded on this theme over and over again, so there is no room left to “clarify” the doctrine of the Church into another meaning. What exactly do you perceive Vatican II clarified, may I ask? What was unclear before? What deposit of Faith did Eugene IV, Boniface VIII, Pius IX, Pius X, Pius XII, et al. miss out on that they defined doctrine contrary to it. and which Vatican II suddenly rediscovered?

I yet again fail to see where you are bringing your point from. The SSPX is not attempting to defend it’s “personal opinion” against Church teaching. They are attempting to defend previous Church teaching against perceived novelties. Again, they never said an ecumenical council did not have authority over doctrine. They are saying a council cannot redefine an already defined dogma. It simply is not in its power. How can you keep saying they are acting in a manner which they are clearly not? A rejected teaching? Can an ecumenical council reject infallible dogmas? I strongly urge you to give us real examples of SSPX errors, from their own words, and what exactly they contradict in Church teaching. Making undocumented assertions about their presumed errors does not give us evidence to deal with. Your gracious sharing of this information would greatly help us to understand exactly where these “errors” arise from. I truly appreciate your sharing this with us.
I will try to be more clear. My understanding that SSPX does not accept that non-Catholics (or at least non-Christians) who die without an explicit desire to be baptized can be saved. I can’t point to their official documents as they appear to have none. If I have stated their position correctly, it conflicts with the Church’s teaching as set forth in the Dogmatic Constitution and the Catechism.

As for whether an Ecumenical Council can “redefine an already defined dogma,” virtually every Council has provided further explanation or clarification of existing dogma. If you refer to that as redefining, then that it what Councils do. Vatican I certainly did so with Papal infallibility. You may say that Vatican I did not change the teaching on infallibilty, it simply restated it more clearly. I say the same for Vatican II’s teaching on salvation for non-Catholics.

Vatican II did not reject any infallible dogma. The infallible dogma is that there is no salvation outside the Church. That dogma has not changed. But at some points the Church has taught that this dogma means that one must be a formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved, except for martyrs and those who explicitly desired Baptism but died before they could be baptized. Vatican II explains the existing dogma slightly differently, in a way that is more consistent with the Deposit of Faith.

Those that argue that the Council is wrong, that Vatican II’s explanation is less consistent with the Deposit of Faith are arguing that their interpretation of the Faith is better than the Council’s. That is clearly a dissenting opinion, but an opinion they have a right to hold. They are free to discuss and advocate for that position. But some go so far as to suggest that their interpretation is more authoritative, or at least equally authoritative, as the Council’s. They do this by arguing that this particular Council lacked the authority to clarify Church teaching in this way. That is not a position they have a right to hold if they are Catholic. It is no different than the way other groups have rejected the teachings of other Councils.
 
Vatican II did not reject any infallible dogma. The infallible dogma is that there is no salvation outside the Church. That dogma has not changed. But at some points the Church has taught that this dogma means that one must be a formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved, except for martyrs and those who explicitly desired Baptism but died before they could be baptized. Vatican II explains the existing dogma slightly differently, in a way that is more consistent with the Deposit of Faith. Those that argue that the Council is wrong, that Vatican II’s explanation is less consistent with the Deposit of Faith are arguing that their interpretation of the Faith is better than the Council’s. That is clearly a dissenting opinion, but an opinion they have a right to hold. They are free to discuss and advocate for that position. But some go so far as to suggest that their interpretation is more authoritative, or at least equally authoritative, as the Council’s. They do this by arguing that this particular Council lacked the authority to clarify Church teaching in this way. That is not a position they have a right to hold if they are Catholic. It is no different than the way other groups have rejected the teachings of other Councils.
What you see in bold from your previous post is a fancy way to say re-defining. To say it like that is acting as a politician putting “spin” on a particular matter. You said Vatican II “slightly differs” that’s all that is needed to make it DIFFERENT, those it has been “RE-DEFINED”, which as quoted by Eve is not within the power of such council. ::Yawn::
:coffeeread: man it’s early to be hitting the Apologetic threads, oh and I do apologize for seeming to lose my temper a bit with New England, though it made me made when he started attacking Eve as illogical. And thank you Eve for further clarifying my point about the Eucharist, again you have given a scholarly and beautiful rebuttal! 👍
 
I will try to be more clear. My understanding that SSPX does not accept that non-Catholics (or at least non-Christians) who die without an explicit desire to be baptized can be saved. I can’t point to their official documents as they appear to have none. If I have stated their position correctly, it conflicts with the Church’s teaching as set forth in the Dogmatic Constitution and the Catechism.

As for whether an Ecumenical Council can “redefine an already defined dogma,” virtually every Council has provided further explanation or clarification of existing dogma. If you refer to that as redefining, then that it what Councils do. Vatican I certainly did so with Papal infallibility. You may say that Vatican I did not change the teaching on infallibilty, it simply restated it more clearly. I say the same for Vatican II’s teaching on salvation for non-Catholics.
An ecumenical council can not contradict a previous ecumenical council. It can further define dogma. But Vatican II can not order people to stop believing in the proclamations of the previous councils.

The SSPX is having trouble understanding how it can accept a few of the statements of Vatican II without rejecting things that were taught by other councils. That’s what the discussions are about, how to understand Vatican II in a way that doesn’t break with Tradition.
 
What you see in bold from your previous post is a fancy way to say re-defining. To say it like that is acting as a politician putting “spin” on a particular matter. You said Vatican II “slightly differs” that’s all that is needed to make it DIFFERENT, those it has been “RE-DEFINED”, which as quoted by Eve is not within the power of such council. ::Yawn::
:coffeeread: man it’s early to be hitting the Apologetic threads, oh and I do apologize for seeming to lose my temper a bit with New England, though it made me made when he started attacking Eve as illogical. And thank you Eve for further clarifying my point about the Eucharist, again you have given a scholarly and beautiful rebuttal! 👍
An ecumenical council can not contradict a previous ecumenical council. It can further define dogma. But Vatican II can not order people to stop believing in the proclamations of the previous councils.

The SSPX is having trouble understanding how it can accept a few of the statements of Vatican II without rejecting things that were taught by other councils. That’s what the discussions are about, how to understand Vatican II in a way that doesn’t break with Tradition.
How is what Vatican II did different from what was done by other councils? Vatican I directly contradicts the Council of Constance regarding papal authority, for example. Not every word that comes from a Council is infallible. Later Councils do build on, clarify and extend previous teachings. To the extent that is “changing” a doctrine, all Councils have done that. If in clarifying a teaching it becomes clear that an older understanding of that teaching is not completely accurate, then yes, that teaching is invalidated by the new teaching. This is how the Church has operated for 2000 years.

Vatican II was either a valid Ecumenical Council or it was not. If it was, than any “change” it made was either within the scope of the infallible teaching, or the teaching was not infallible. If Vatican II was not a valid Ecumenical Council, then the people and organizations that currently claim to be the Church are not the Church. I see no middle ground on that point. The last four Popes have certified that Vatican II was a valid Council aand that its teachings are binding. The current Pope and his predeccessor have certified that the Catechism, which relies heavily on Vatican II is the sure and true teaching of the Church based on the Deposit of Faith. If its not, what does that say about the Magisterium?
 
How is what Vatican II did different from what was done by other councils? Vatican I directly contradicts the Council of Constance regarding papal authority, for example. Not every word that comes from a Council is infallible. Later Councils do build on, clarify and extend previous teachings. To the extent that is “changing” a doctrine, all Councils have done that. If in clarifying a teaching it becomes clear that an older understanding of that teaching is not completely accurate, then yes, that teaching is invalidated by the new teaching. This is how the Church has operated for 2000 years.

Vatican II was either a valid Ecumenical Council or it was not. If it was, than any “change” it made was either within the scope of the infallible teaching, or the teaching was not infallible. If Vatican II was not a valid Ecumenical Council, then the people and organizations that currently claim to be the Church are not the Church. I see no middle ground on that point. The last four Popes have certified that Vatican II was a valid Council aand that its teachings are binding. The current Pope and his predeccessor have certified that the Catechism, which relies heavily on Vatican II is the sure and true teaching of the Church based on the Deposit of Faith. If its not, what does that say about the Magisterium?
With all due respect, sir, for all your good intentions your last two posts are so full of genuine error I do not know what to think.

I have pointed out how more than one pontiff, including the current one when a cardinal, has stated Vatican II was not binding and was pastoral in nature, since nothing was defined and the solemn magisterium was not excercised. How can you continue to state beyond any available evidence we have seen that Vatican II posseses the charism of infalliblity for no apparent reason other than you appear to think it should. Of course the Holy Father believes the SSPX should accept Vatican II, he believes in it! However, the Holy Father’s acceptance of a Council does not make it binding, nor does it make it authoritative. The Holy Father, to my knowledge, has never said Vatican II was infallible and was binding on the consciences of the Faithful, he simply does not like to see it questioned. Perfectly rational and understandable.

Again, please cite something! Saying Vatican I is a direct contradiction of Constance tells us nothing. Please tell us how, and cite where it says these things.

Your position appears illogical to me. How can one say that one council can contradict another, but than state Vatican II is binding and cannot be contradicted? Who would feel bound to such fluidity in doctrine, when they can wait and campaign long enough and maybe they will change it? No council can contradict another infallible council. It is already acknowledged Cantate Domino in infallible, and it shows this by using solemn language: “The Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims…” There is no getting around this. Vatican II does not have in its power the ability to contradict Florence. No council has the power to override a previous council by “clarifying” it to mean something different. There are only two ways this can occur: Ecumenical councils cannot be infallible ever, in which case why are we having this disagreement, or Florence is in error. If an infallibly defined council is in error, we have huge problems.

No, ecumenical councils do not contradict other councils and remain valid. Vatican II is in a league all its own. Frequently non-infallible councils have been erroneous and may be thrown out, such as Ephesus (449) and Pistoia (1794). The same can be true of Vatican II. Again, I have no authority to say either way, however I do point it could happen.

To say the Catholic Church actively changes and disposes of doctrines is so erroneous it is a self-defeating argument, and I having nothing to add save this smacks of Mormon direct- “we change on occasion” -revelation.

Again, where did the last four popes saying Vatican II was binding? Please cite!

How is Vatican II’s teaching on salvation (other than it appears to flatly contradict the previous magisterium) more in keeping with the Deposit of Faith? Please tell how and where the Church taught something similar to Vatican II’s teaching in the past.

What does this say about the Magisterium indeed. Now you know the concerns the SSPX has held all along. How can the Vatican say these things when clearly they are not in keeping with previous doctrine? The answer is largely they are not binding on faithful. The hierarchy is not the Church, and the hierarchy can make mistakes. The intentions at Vatican II to reconcile the Church to the modern world were good intentioned, but we know to where the road paved with good intentions leads.

Forgive me, but I keep observing the same ad hominem arguments which are not elaborated on. The SSPX is not interpreting anything. They want to know, as the previous poster summarized excellently, how they can believe something which contradicts something else. That is all! They are not a theological school, or rabbinical school, arguing the merits and demerits of doctrine. They simply want an explanation. How can a council appear to do what it lacks the authority to do? How can its teachings be reconciled to the past? That is why they are dialoguing, to discuss the problems and uncertainties. In the mean time, they hold fast to what they know is true, until otherwise clarified. Seems logical to me.
 
How is what Vatican II did different from what was done by other councils? Vatican I directly contradicts the Council of Constance regarding papal authority, for example. Not every word that comes from a Council is infallible. Later Councils do build on, clarify and extend previous teachings. To the extent that is “changing” a doctrine, all Councils have done that. If in clarifying a teaching it becomes clear that an older understanding of that teaching is not completely accurate, then yes, that teaching is invalidated by the new teaching. This is how the Church has operated for 2000 years.
You must be referring to the first part of the Council of Constance, which is not considered ecumenical. The ecumenical part of the Council of Constance accepted by the church did not contain the conciliarist statement that the first part had.

That’s exactly the point… you can’t have two councils that disagree. If they disagree, you either accept one or you accept the other, you can’t accept them both.
 
With all due respect, sir, for all your good intentions your last two posts are so full of genuine error I do not know what to think.

I have pointed out how more than one pontiff, including the current one when a cardinal, has stated Vatican II was not binding and was pastoral in nature, since nothing was defined and the solemn magisterium was not excercised. How can you continue to state beyond any available evidence we have seen that Vatican II posseses the charism of infalliblity for no apparent reason other than you appear to think it should. Of course the Holy Father believes the SSPX should accept Vatican II, he believes in it! However, the Holy Father’s acceptance of a Council does not make it binding, nor does it make it authoritative. The Holy Father, to my knowledge, has never said Vatican II was infallible and was binding on the consciences of the Faithful, he simply does not like to see it questioned. Perfectly rational and understandable.
Cardinal Ratzinger never said that Vatican II was not binding on the faithful. On the contrary, in “The Ratzinger Report” he specifically said that Vatican II bears the same authority as Trent and Vatican I, and that a Catholic that denies Vatican II’s authority is also denying the authority that upholds the previous two Councils. He has never said that the teaching of Vatican II is not binding, in fact he specifically said that SSPX’s failure to recognize the authority of Vatican II is the impediment to their full return.

I never said that Vatican II was infallible - I said it has the same teaching authority that other councils had. I don’t know that any of its statements are infallible, but whether infallible or not they are the authoritative teaching of the Church.
 
Again, please cite something! Saying Vatican I is a direct contradiction of Constance tells us nothing. Please tell us how, and cite where it says these things.
Constance denied the supremacy of the Pope and declared that the Pope must be subject to Ecumenical Councils. Vatican I essentially reversed that order.

Your position appears illogical to me. How can one say that one council can contradict another, but than state Vatican II is binding and cannot be contradicted? Who would feel bound to such fluidity in doctrine, when they can wait and campaign long enough and maybe they will change it? No council can contradict another infallible council. It is already acknowledged Cantate Domino in infallible, and it shows this by using solemn language: “The Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and proclaims…” There is no getting around this. Vatican II does not have in its power the ability to contradict Florence. No council has the power to override a previous council by “clarifying” it to mean something different. There are only two ways this can occur: Ecumenical councils cannot be infallible ever, in which case why are we having this disagreement, or Florence is in error. If an infallibly defined council is in error, we have huge problems.

No, ecumenical councils do not contradict other councils and remain valid. Vatican II is in a league all its own. Frequently non-infallible councils have been erroneous and may be thrown out, such as Ephesus (449) and Pistoia (1794). The same can be true of Vatican II. Again, I have no authority to say either way, however I do point it could happen.

To say the Catholic Church actively changes and disposes of doctrines is so erroneous it is a self-defeating argument, and I having nothing to add save this smacks of Mormon direct- “we change on occasion” -revelation.

This entire argument is premised on the idea that teachings of Vatican II contradict the infallible teachings of earlier councils. They do not.
Again, where did the last four popes saying Vatican II was binding? Please cite!
Paul VI did in his speech concluding the Council.
We decided moreover that all that has been established synodally is to be religiously observed by all the faithful, for the glory of God and the dignity of the Church and for the tranquillity and peace of all men. We have approved and established these things, decreeing that the present letters are and remain stable and valid, and are to have legal effectiveness, so that they be disseminated and obtain full and complete effect, and so that they may be fully convalidated by those whom they concern or may concern now and in the future; and so that, as it be judged and described, all efforts contrary to these things by whomever or whatever authority, knowingly or in ignorance be invalid and worthless from now on.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_letters/documents/hf_p-vi_apl_19651208_in-spiritu-sancto_en.html

In the short papacy of John Paul I he mentioned or quoted Vatican II in virtually every of his public statments, and he began his papacy by reiterating how important it was to follow the Council.

For John Paul II, the best source is probably his apostolic confirmation of the validity of the current Catechism. For Pope Benedict, I believe I have already posted links to his statments that full communion for SSPX requires that they admit to the authority of Vatican II.
How is Vatican II’s teaching on salvation (other than it appears to flatly contradict the previous magisterium) more in keeping with the Deposit of Faith? Please tell how and where the Church taught something similar to Vatican II’s teaching in the past.
What does this say about the Magisterium indeed. Now you know the concerns the SSPX has held all along. How can the Vatican say these things when clearly they are not in keeping with previous doctrine? The answer is largely they are not binding on faithful. The hierarchy is not the Church, and the hierarchy can make mistakes. The intentions at Vatican II to reconcile the Church to the modern world were good intentioned, but we know to where the road paved with good intentions leads.
Forgive me, but I keep observing the same ad hominem arguments which are not elaborated on. The SSPX is not interpreting anything. They want to know, as the previous poster summarized excellently, how they can believe something which contradicts something else. That is all! They are not a theological school, or rabbinical school, arguing the merits and demerits of doctrine. They simply want an explanation. How can a council appear to do what it lacks the authority to do? How can its teachings be reconciled to the past? That is why they are dialoguing, to discuss the problems and uncertainties. In the mean time, they hold fast to what they know is true, until otherwise clarified. Seems logical to me.
Its not me saying that Lumen Gentium is more in accord with the Deposit of Faith (although I agree). It is the Magisterium of the Church that is saying that. The current teaching does not contradict the past teaching of the Church, despite SSPX’s claims to the contrary, although it may be contrary to the beliefs that they hold. The Church has explained this over and over; in fact books have been written about the Council and how it fits into the Church’s theology. After every major council there have been those that disagree for one reason or another, this one is not any different.
 
As far as I can tell, the Church has pretty much acted consistently with traditionalists as it has with Catholic politicians who tend to be pro choice, as their pro choice positions also support things that result in conditions that greatly reduce abortion.

A lot of the time you see voters guides in the U.S. that address these issues. However if one looks at voters guides for Catholics in several other Democratic countries where abortion is legally available, you see somewhat conflicting positions when compared to those in the U.S.

the 2008 Voters Guide For the Catholics of New Zealand was much more detailed.

Life itself
“The Church teaches that human life begins at conception and lasts until we draw our final breath… When society decides that certain types of killing are moral the door is opened to many others.” NZCBC, Consistent ethic of life, 1997

Every abortion involves taking one person’s life for another person’s reasons. But we need to do more than condemn. Our responsibility to protect unborn children includes considering the legal framework for abortions, and also supporting pregnant and single mothers, and ensuring all children are welcomed and supported.

What is the position of political candidates on the protection of unborn children?

What do they say about the social and economic circumstances which contribute to higher or lower rates of abortion?

What protection and support do political candidates offer for children likely to be born with disabilities?

catholic.org.nz/statements/0808_elections.php

This is an interesting distinction between the U.S. and New Zealand. Particularly when it comes to the social and economic circumstances. In the U.S. the issue of socioeconomic factors with regard to abortion is often denied, but when it is not, it tends to be ignored and pushed to the side.

Most Catholic Politicians also have a problem with having attention focused on them for the single issue of abortion, while much of the good that they do with regard to social justice is just something for which they are given absolutely no credit. A few years back a group of 48 Catholics elected to national office met with an archbishop and presented a letter stating something to that fact.

What these Catholics tend to object to is that while so much attention is focused on them, it is probably rare to see any focus on conservative or Republican politicians when they work to repeal or even eliminate these social programs. Its a valid point.

It seems that when you get down to the bottom of the differences between both the traditionalists and the liberal Catholics in the U.S. the bottom line both seems to have something to do with Vatican II.

Traditionalists reject a lot of it, some of it has to do with forms, but much has to do with a single issue. The place of personal conscience. Some of conservatives were the firmest opponents to both conscience and the place of dissent in the church. However many of the positions that are now doctrine in the church such as the Vatican II’s " Declaration on Human Freedom" as well as the “Declaration on Religious Freedom”

both based on and perhaps written by Father John Courtney Murray who faced fierce opposition from the most influential American Catholic theologians of their time, Fathers Joseph Fenton and Francis Connell, who called Father Murray’s arguments, “destructive, scandalous, and heretical”. But eventually the Vatican II council voted to approve Father Murray’s positions by a vote of 2,308 to 80.

That John Courtney Murray was a dissident is undeniable. That his prolonged dissent was vindicated by the church at its highest level is equally undeniable.

The same can be said of the traditionalists. They too have been dissenters for many, many years.

While traditionalists and liberals are both often considered to be “dissident” both base their dissent on both church doctrine as well as a long history of it being the case that a lot of what the Church now relies for many argument came out of a lot of dissent, with a lot of dissenters coming under much criticism and outright attack. St Thomas Aquinas had his books burned by the Church, Cardinal Newman was fervently opposed and attacked for his statements that his conscience came first, and Papal infallability came second and Father Murray, well he died of a series of heart attacks based on the the assaults on the positions he took, and fought to have recognized for almost two decades. In the end, these dissidents have been the foundation for much that the church now holds as doctrine.

There is much to be recommended for positions taken by the traditionalists.

I suppose that the difference between the way the Church handles the traditionalists and elected political officials is that most of the traditionalists are clerics. They hold a rather special position in that their knowledge of Church doctrine is by the nature of their work, supposedly better formed than that of lay Catholic politicians, no matter how highly they rank in the secular scheme of things.

The issue of conscience is one that has not been settled OR solved by the church so in the case of both liberals and traditionalists there is a Latin phrase I forget the exact wording of is “Where there is doubt, there is room for dissent” or something to that effect. Essentially the position that is taken that where there is a general principal, but no specific definitions, there is room for argument. Both liberal Catholics and Traditionalists base there dissent or their withholding of assent on this.

However it is important to note, that much that is now held as doctrine came out o both dissent as well as popular positions taken by the laity. Even things such as the Marian assumption did not come out of doctrine, but out of the fact that these ideas were held to be so by a large number of the laity.
 
Cardinal Ratzinger never said that Vatican II was not binding on the faithful. On the contrary, in “The Ratzinger Report” he specifically said that Vatican II bears the same authority as Trent and Vatican I, and that a Catholic that denies Vatican II’s authority is also denying the authority that upholds the previous two Councils. He has never said that the teaching of Vatican II is not binding, in fact he specifically said that SSPX’s failure to recognize the authority of Vatican II is the impediment to their full return.

I never said that Vatican II was infallible - I said it has the same teaching authority that other councils had. I don’t know that any of its statements are infallible, but whether infallible or not they are the authoritative teaching of the Church.
I think you must be missuderstanding my point. A council can posess the force of the Church’s authority without being binding on the conscience of the faithful. Vatican II is case in point. As the poster above astutely points out with Constance, non-infallible parts of Church councils can be in error, and if not solemnly defined may be revoked. Vatican II of course enjoys the same teaching authority as other councils, since it was validly convened and conducted. But I as I indicated with the note I posted above, this does not make the entire council morally obligatory:

THEOLOGICAL NOTE OF THE GENERAL SECRETARY OF THE COUNCIL
The Council’s General Secretary, Pericle Cardinal Felici, Cardinal
Prefect of the Supreme Congregation of the Holy Office, the Church’s
highest theological tribunal, issued the “theological note” of the
council, i.e., the level of theological authority of the particular
council: “We have to distinguish according to the schemata and the
chapters those which have already been the subject of dogmatic
definitions in the past; as for the declarations that have a novel
character, we have to make reservations.”

Is this not clear enough? Cardinal Felici is stating here that not all Vatican II documents are created equal, and some may be taken with a grain of salt. Why must it be all or nothing? This is the same error sedevacantists make to justify denying the Holy Father.
 
Constance denied the supremacy of the Pope and declared that the Pope must be subject to Ecumenical Councils. Vatican I essentially reversed that order.
This entire argument is premised on the idea that teachings of Vatican II contradict the infallible teachings of earlier councils. They do not.
Paul VI did in his speech concluding the Council.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_letters/documents/hf_p-vi_apl_19651208_in-spiritu-sancto_en.html
In the short papacy of John Paul I he mentioned or quoted Vatican II in virtually every of his public statments, and he began his papacy by reiterating how important it was to follow the Council.
For John Paul II, the best source is probably his apostolic confirmation of the validity of the current Catechism. For Pope Benedict, I believe I have already posted links to his statments that full communion for SSPX requires that they admit to the authority of Vatican II.
Its not me saying that Lumen Gentium is more in accord with the Deposit of Faith (although I agree). It is the Magisterium of the Church that is saying that. The current teaching does not contradict the past teaching of the Church, despite SSPX’s claims to the contrary, although it may be contrary to the beliefs that they hold. The Church has explained this over and over; in fact books have been written about the Council and how it fits into the Church’s theology. After every major council there have been those that disagree for one reason or another, this one is not any different.
With the exception of the quote from Pope Paul VI, for which I thank you, this entire response is conjecture, completely lacking in supporting evidence. Repeatedly making ad hominem assertions does not make an argument true, and it shall not in this instance.

Nothing is cited here from Constance or Vatican I to show how they do not coincide. You may be right, but how would we know?

The entire argument is not based on the premise that Vatican II contradicts earlier councils, but that it is possible and the SSPX has reason to feel so. Saying it does not contradict previous councils proves nothing, and merely saying it will not make it true. If so many books have been written defending Vatican II theology, please cite them for our edification and expound their arguments for us. Please provide the historic roots of these ideas.

I agree that Vatican II taught many positive things, many grounded in Church history. Many of the Church fathers said truth existed outside the Catholic religion, only that this truth is not enough to save. I could elaborate on this vein, of where Vatican II went right, but it takes away from the topic at hand, which is where it may have gone wrong, and how it relates to SSPX.

Nothing Pope Paul VI said at the closing of Vatican II contradicts my assertions. Yes, of course the Pope declared the council was teaching with its full authority, what else would he say? All orthodox teachings in Vatican II are indeed binding on the faithful, and require our assent. However, if Vatican II did declare something in error, than it no longer has force of law ipso facto, and would not bind the faithful. This is just a fact of Church teaching. A doctrine with no foundation is no doctrine at all, and a Council cannot make it one. An ecumencal council, no matter how solemn, can declare error truth. All power has its limits, and the power of the Church is to proclaim truth, not convert falsehoods into truth.

Again, the Popes may personally believe Vatican II is the be all and end all of Catholic theology, but this again is not infallible and can be mistaken. I am not saying it is, only it is possible, and that is what the SSPX is trying to sort out. The fact the Pope feels Vatican II is indispensible does not automatically make it so.

And again, regarding Lumen Gentium, etc. complete conjecture once again. Not one citation could be given justifying Vatican II in the Deposit of Faith. If it is not contradictory, should it not then be easy to find collaborative evidence? Should there not be multiple sources available? I repeat, merely saying that certain teachings are in the Deposit of Faith because “Rome told me so” and conflating that with the magisterium is not being intellectually honest. There must be evidence somewhere if the case is that strong.

Please, I am now literally begging, provide us with more sources to justify this viewpoint. Feeling free to condemn the SSPX as schismatics and heretics and then not be able to defend that assertion with real facts is unjust. SSPX documents are not even cited in their condemnation, yet their supposed position is condemned anyway! Do we condemn now based on rumors or perceptions of people’s beliefs? The SSPX, indeed all the faithful, deserve better, and there is still no reason to see why the SSPX is not justified in its position of concern.
 
With the exception of the quote from Pope Paul VI, for which I thank you, this entire response is conjecture, completely lacking in supporting evidence. Repeatedly making ad hominem assertions does not make an argument true, and it shall not in this instance.

Nothing is cited here from Constance or Vatican I to show how they do not coincide. You may be right, but how would we know?

The entire argument is not based on the premise that Vatican II contradicts earlier councils, but that it is possible and the SSPX has reason to feel so. Saying it does not contradict previous councils proves nothing, and merely saying it will not make it true. If so many books have been written defending Vatican II theology, please cite them for our edification and expound their arguments for us. Please provide the historic roots of these ideas.

I agree that Vatican II taught many positive things, many grounded in Church history. Many of the Church fathers said truth existed outside the Catholic religion, only that this truth is not enough to save. I could elaborate on this vein, of where Vatican II went right, but it takes away from the topic at hand, which is where it may have gone wrong, and how it relates to SSPX.

Nothing Pope Paul VI said at the closing of Vatican II contradicts my assertions. Yes, of course the Pope declared the council was teaching with its full authority, what else would he say? All orthodox teachings in Vatican II are indeed binding on the faithful, and require our assent. However, if Vatican II did declare something in error, than it no longer has force of law ipso facto, and would not bind the faithful. This is just a fact of Church teaching. A doctrine with no foundation is no doctrine at all, and a Council cannot make it one. An ecumencal council, no matter how solemn, can declare error truth. All power has its limits, and the power of the Church is to proclaim truth, not convert falsehoods into truth.

Again, the Popes may personally believe Vatican II is the be all and end all of Catholic theology, but this again is not infallible and can be mistaken. I am not saying it is, only it is possible, and that is what the SSPX is trying to sort out. The fact the Pope feels Vatican II is indispensible does not automatically make it so.

And again, regarding Lumen Gentium, etc. complete conjecture once again. Not one citation could be given justifying Vatican II in the Deposit of Faith. If it is not contradictory, should it not then be easy to find collaborative evidence? Should there not be multiple sources available? I repeat, merely saying that certain teachings are in the Deposit of Faith because “Rome told me so” and conflating that with the magisterium is not being intellectually honest. There must be evidence somewhere if the case is that strong.

Please, I am now literally begging, provide us with more sources to justify this viewpoint. Feeling free to condemn the SSPX as schismatics and heretics and then not be able to defend that assertion with real facts is unjust. SSPX documents are not even cited in their condemnation, yet their supposed position is condemned anyway! Do we condemn now based on rumors or perceptions of people’s beliefs? The SSPX, indeed all the faithful, deserve better, and there is still no reason to see why the SSPX is not justified in its position of concern.
Didn’t Vatican I say the the Roman Pontiff has the Supreme authority in the Catholic Church in disciplinary and doctrinal matters? If so, then would it not be a heresy to say that we are allowed to disobey the Pope if he imposes a liturgy that we do not like?
 
Constance denied the supremacy of the Pope and declared that the Pope must be subject to Ecumenical Councils. Vatican I essentially reversed that order.
This is a big misunderstanding of yours. Two councils can never contradict or reverse each other.

What you’re referring to here is “Haec Sancta”, a decree of the Council of Constance that was not recognized by the Pope, and is not accepted by the Catholic Church.

From wikipedia:
The famous Haec sancta decree on papal primacy and infallibility was promulgated in the fifth session, April 6, 1415. Its declaration that legitimately assembled in the holy Spirit, constituting a general council and representing the Catholic church militant, it has power immediately from Christ; and that everyone of whatever state or dignity, even papal, is bound to obey it in those matters which pertain to the faith, the eradication of the said schism and the general reform of the said church of God in head and members.
marks the high water mark of the Conciliar movement of reform [1].
This decree, however, is not considered valid by the Catholic Church, since it was never approved by Pope Gregory XII or his successors, and was passed by the Council in a session before his confirmation. The Church declared the first sessions of the Council of Constance an invalid and illicit assembly of Bishops, gathered under the authority of Emperor Sigismund and Antipope John XXIII.
So you’ve actually disproved your own point with this example. Do you have any other examples of two councils contradicting each other?
 
This is a big misunderstanding of yours. Two councils can never contradict or reverse each other.

What you’re referring to here is “Haec Sancta”, a decree of the Council of Constance that was not recognized by the Pope, and is not accepted by the Catholic Church.

From wikipedia:

So you’ve actually disproved your own point with this example. Do you have any other examples of two councils contradicting each other?
I think you are right that part of Constance was declared non-ecumenical, although I think that was done ex-post to avoid this conflict.

The only other clearly contradicted Counciliar teaching I am aware of is not a matter of doctrine, that is that one of the first Councils (Nicea?, I’m not sure.) required that bishops be selected from among the priests in that see.

I have to admit that I allowed my argument to wander off point in a silly attempt to score a point. My argument is not that this Council can contradict past councils. Its that the Church says, and I agree, that this Council does not contradict prior teaching. Some people argue that it does, which has happened after pretty much every Council.

Many Councils (and Popes) have extended, clarified or explained doctrine in ways that some people have taken as contradictions. The Marian dogmas are a good modern example. When they were codified after Vatican I, many called it a change to the Church’s teaching, but most accepted that it was a codification and clarification of existing teaching.

There have been many examples in the history of the Church of a Council clarifying a teaching and that newly clarified teaching being rejected by some dissenters as contradictory. Certainly about half of Christendom rejected the teachings of the Fourth Council of Contantinople as in conflict with previous Councils, including the Council of Chalcedon. In short because the Eastern Church says that Chalcedon denies the primacy of Rome.

That dispute, along with the filoque, led to the East-West split. In fact, the filoque is probably the best example of a large group of devout Catholics, including bishops, rejecting Councilar and Papal teachings as contradicting earlier teaching. It is similar to this situation in several ways.

There is no doubt that the Creed currently professed by the Western Church is different than the Creed adopted by the Council of Nicea. The First Council of Ephesus said it is “unlawful for any man to bring forward, or to write, or to compose a different Faith as a rival to that established by the holy Fathers assembled with the Holy Ghost in Nicæa.” The East says this prohibits adding the filoque, or anything else. The Western Church recognizes the filoque as a continuation of prior teaching, and hold that Ephesus’ declaration does not apply to the filoque because the new Creed is not “a rival” to the Nicene Creed and/or because the filoque was added before Ephesus and the Council was referring to the Creed as modified. The Western Church recognizes that our Creed is an extension and clarification of the Creed established at Nicea, but millions of devout Christians view it as a contradiction of a prior Council.

The current disputes over EENS, ecumenism, “subsists in,” etc., are nothing compared to the disputes that have arisen after other major councils. The East’s argument that adding the filoque contradicts Nicea and Ephesus is certainly as strong or stronger than any argument that Vatican II changed infallible teachings. But just as the Eastern Bishops did not have the authority to declare that the Pope and the Bishops in Ecumenical Council exceeded their authority, the SSPX Bishops do not have the authority gainsay the current Magisterium. Maybe they will end up a seperate Rite like the Orthodox, but frankly I don’t think SSPX is big enough to be self-sustaining. More likely this dispute will die away like many others have.
 
And again, regarding Lumen Gentium, etc. complete conjecture once again. Not one citation could be given justifying Vatican II in the Deposit of Faith. If it is not contradictory, should it not then be easy to find collaborative evidence? Should there not be multiple sources available? I repeat, merely saying that certain teachings are in the Deposit of Faith because “Rome told me so” and conflating that with the magisterium is not being intellectually honest. There must be evidence somewhere if the case is that strong.

Please, I am now literally begging, provide us with more sources to justify this viewpoint. Feeling free to condemn the SSPX as schismatics and heretics and then not be able to defend that assertion with real facts is unjust. SSPX documents are not even cited in their condemnation, yet their supposed position is condemned anyway! Do we condemn now based on rumors or perceptions of people’s beliefs? The SSPX, indeed all the faithful, deserve better, and there is still no reason to see why the SSPX is not justified in its position of concern.
I address Constance at all in the post above.

On the authority of VII generally and the grounding of its documents in the Deposit of Faith, have you read the documents and read Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict’s various articles and homilies that draw on them? Lumen Gentium, Gaudium et Spes and the others all cite extensively to prior Councils, Church Fathers and Scripture. Pope Benedict constantly emphasizes that everything in Vatican II is based on and drawn from the earlier Councils, the Fathers and Scripture. If you have not seen these statements and articles by Benedict/Ratzinger I can dig some up, but if you have seen them and simply disagree I’d frankly rather not spend the time.
 
I address Constance at all in the post above.

On the authority of VII generally and the grounding of its documents in the Deposit of Faith, have you read the documents and read Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict’s various articles and homilies that draw on them? Lumen Gentium, Gaudium et Spes and the others all cite extensively to prior Councils, Church Fathers and Scripture. Pope Benedict constantly emphasizes that everything in Vatican II is based on and drawn from the earlier Councils, the Fathers and Scripture. If you have not seen these statements and articles by Benedict/Ratzinger I can dig some up, but if you have seen them and simply disagree I’d frankly rather not spend the time.
It would behoove you to share this information with us here, since frankly no compelling evidence of what you say has been presented thus far.

I think my general point, however, is being lost at the expense of this debate, namely:

-An ecumenical council can err and has erred in the ordinary magisterium, and Vatican II may be in the same boat. (As I said, I cannot say whether it is or it is not, only that this is possible). This can be rectified or repealed by a Pope or later council.
-An ecumenical council cannot decree something contrary to a prior council, specifically and especially in the extraordinary magisterium.
-A pope, or even a series of popes, can also err in the ordinary magisterium.
-We are not obliged to follow a pope or member of the hierarchy unto destruction, and we need not obey an unjust order, for obedience has natural limits. If a Pope or member of the hierarchy ordered us to obey to something wrong, we are not obliged to obey simply because they have exceeded the limits of their just authority. Remember from Scripture: “You have no authority, save that which is given you from above.”
-The hierarchy, Rome, and the Pope are not the Church or the magisterium, although they act in concert with it and on its behalf.
-Error has no rights, and necessity knows no law. If the SSPX felt a state of necessity existed, they would be justified to disobey. The onus is on Rome to teach Truth, not the SSPX.
-By their fruits ye shall know them. If the SSPX is in error, than time will tell. However, I think the fact that the Holy Father seems so concerned about the SSPX indicates that at minimum, the Holy Father feels the SSPX is a cause for interest. It would seem to be a doubting of the Holy Father’s wisdom to rebuke the Society more harshly than he has. I see no one bending over backwards to dialogue with the SSPV, CMRI, or frankly, the Old Catholics.
-SSPX actions are justified by historical precedent, Canon Law, and Church teaching.

I did not intend this debate to initially be concerned about the merits of Vatican II, only that SSPX has the right to be concerned. What we personally feel about the Council has no effect on the SSPX standing before the Church and before history. While what we feel about the Council is good to share, it has no bearing on the original argument, which is whether the SSPX may act as it has, and I believe as it stands the evidence is in its favor.
 
It would behoove you to share this information with us here, since frankly no compelling evidence of what you say has been presented thus far.

I think my general point, however, is being lost at the expense of this debate, namely:

-An ecumenical council can err and has erred in the ordinary magisterium, and Vatican II may be in the same boat. (As I said, I cannot say whether it is or it is not, only that this is possible). This can be rectified or repealed by a Pope or later council.
-An ecumenical council cannot decree something contrary to a prior council, specifically and especially in the extraordinary magisterium.
-A pope, or even a series of popes, can also err in the ordinary magisterium.
-We are not obliged to follow a pope or member of the hierarchy unto destruction, and we need not obey an unjust order, for obedience has natural limits. If a Pope or member of the hierarchy ordered us to obey to something wrong, we are not obliged to obey simply because they have exceeded the limits of their just authority. Remember from Scripture: “You have no authority, save that which is given you from above.”
-The hierarchy, Rome, and the Pope are not the Church or the magisterium, although they act in concert with it and on its behalf.
-Error has no rights, and necessity knows no law. If the SSPX felt a state of necessity existed, they would be justified to disobey. The onus is on Rome to teach Truth, not the SSPX.
-By their fruits ye shall know them. If the SSPX is in error, than time will tell. However, I think the fact that the Holy Father seems so concerned about the SSPX indicates that at minimum, the Holy Father feels the SSPX is a cause for interest. It would seem to be a doubting of the Holy Father’s wisdom to rebuke the Society more harshly than he has. I see no one bending over backwards to dialogue with the SSPV, CMRI, or frankly, the Old Catholics.
-SSPX actions are justified by historical precedent, Canon Law, and Church teaching.

I did not intend this debate to initially be concerned about the merits of Vatican II, only that SSPX has the right to be concerned. What we personally feel about the Council has no effect on the SSPX standing before the Church and before history. While what we feel about the Council is good to share, it has no bearing on the original argument, which is whether the SSPX may act as it has, and I believe as it stands the evidence is in its favor.
I don’t think that there is any recourse beyond a decision of the Pope. And I thought that Vatican I made it clear that the Pope is the Supreme authority in faith and morals and discipline, so it is not some Tradiitonal bishop that Catholics are to listen to, but the Roman Pontiff who always has the last word.
 
I don’t think that there is any recourse beyond a decision of the Pope. And I thought that Vatican I made it clear that the Pope is the Supreme authority in faith and morals and discipline, so it is not some Tradiitonal bishop that Catholics are to listen to, but the Roman Pontiff who always has the last word.
Well bob, here is why you are wrong about this. First of all any Pope, Benedict XVI included would tell you, “No, God is the supreme authority in faith and morals and discipline.” How you can be Catholic and even make a statement like that is truly just crazy sounding. The Roman Pontiff, leader of the Church, successor of St. Peter was never meant to act as dictator, but as leader of the Bride of Christ. There is a huge difference between those two distinctions, leader and dictator. I quote directly from the SSPX themselves,

"The Society of St. Pius X professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ.

The priests of the SSPX pray for the intentions of the Holy Father and the welfare of the local Ordinary at every Mass they celebrate." www.sspx.org

Therefore you have no leg to stand on with this claim, so many people are coming into this debate with not enough research done about the matter, and the documents and the organizations involved. And I still see TMC making claims without citations,…=/. I feel that it is becoming strained, but I also feel the staunchest laity will be defeated in this debate on this thread.
 
Well bob, here is why you are wrong about this. First of all any Pope, Benedict XVI included would tell you, “No, God is the supreme authority in faith and morals and discipline.” How you can be Catholic and even make a statement like that is truly just crazy sounding. The Roman Pontiff, leader of the Church, successor of St. Peter was never meant to act as dictator, but as leader of the Bride of Christ. There is a huge difference between those two distinctions, leader and dictator. I quote directly from the SSPX themselves,

"The Society of St. Pius X professes filial devotion and loyalty to Pope Benedict XVI, the Successor of Saint Peter and the Vicar of Christ.

The priests of the SSPX pray for the intentions of the Holy Father and the welfare of the local Ordinary at every Mass they celebrate." www.sspx.org

Therefore you have no leg to stand on with this claim, so many people are coming into this debate with not enough research done about the matter, and the documents and the organizations involved. And I still see TMC making claims without citations,…=/. I feel that it is becoming strained, but I also feel the staunchest laity will be defeated in this debate on this thread.
I thought that Vatican I gave the Roman Pontiff the plenitude of full and supreme power over the whole Church as follows: “If anyone thus speaks, that the Roman Pontiff has only the office of inspection or direction, but not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the universal Church, not only in things which pertain to faith and morals, but also in those which pertain to the discipline and government of the Church spread over the whole world; or, that he possesses only the more important parts, but not the whole plenitude of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate, or over the churches altogether and individually, and over the pastors and the faithful altogether and individually: let him be anathema.”
 
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