Veils at Other People's Weddings

[FanChan]

Again, speaking as someone who veils, I think that some of you should be careful in how you minimize the issue into “just a personal devotion”. I know I personally don’t veil just because I think it’s a nice way to praise God. I do so because I feel that the scriptures regarding a woman having her head covered is still valid today. The Church never explicitly erased the requirement of veiling, same with abstaining on Friday’s - either from meat or something else - but that isn’t enforced, either.

Personally, it’s more than just a private devotion.

If she was Muslim, would people be telling her to take her head-covering off for the wedidng?

 

[savienu]

Again, speaking as someone who veils, I think that some of you should be careful in how you minimize the issue into “just a personal devotion”. I know I personally don’t veil just because I think it’s a nice way to praise God. I do so because I feel that the scriptures regarding a woman having her head covered is still valid today. The Church never explicitly erased the requirement of veiling, same with abstaining on Friday’s - either from meat or something else - but that isn’t enforced, either.

Personally, it’s more than just a private devotion.

If she was Muslim, would people be telling her to take her head-covering off for the wedidng?

I agree.

 

[dixieagle]

Again, speaking as someone who veils, I think that some of you should be careful in how you minimize the issue into “just a personal devotion”. I know I personally don’t veil just because I think it’s a nice way to praise God. I do so because I feel that the scriptures regarding a woman having her head covered is still valid today. The Church never explicitly erased the requirement of veiling, same with abstaining on Friday’s - either from meat or something else - but that isn’t enforced, either.

Personally, it’s more than just a private devotion.

If she was Muslim, would people be telling her to take her head-covering off for the wedidng?

But, she is NOT Muslim, is she? I don’t intend to open the whole veiling can of worms, but I think we can be sure that we would have been specifically instructed to cover were it still considered essential by our Church.

If you read my previous post, you will see that I think and hope she and her sister will be able to come to an agreement about a suitable head covering that coordinates with the bridal party’s attire, so this is likely all moot. However, the wedding day is not about the OP, but rather about her sister and fiance receiving the sacrament of matrimony.

Brides often get more than a little over-emotional about wedding details. I see no need for this to escalate into a family situation that could cause damage to her relationship with her sister. As another poster mentioned, the Lord will surely understand.

 

[weepixie71]

no way could i concede even walking into a church where the Lord is present and not have my head covered. yes its your sister and its her big day, but this is not an issue over chicken or roast beef. i would let her know that you understand that being the bride the last thing she needs is one more stress but this isnt just special to you but its sacred.

if she has a coordinator make it the coordinators problem. that is their job.
see if the clerk at the bridal shop has any ideas. im sure they would give great ideas on tasteful brides hats.
another suggestion which is my favorite… sit down with her and both of you design and make a hat together. if you can get along it would be a great way to bond.

hadleighhats.co.uk/collectionGallery.asp?style=hats&offset=0

if you cant find one at this site that you and your sister could agree on i just wouldnt know what to tell you lol

 

[FanChan]

But, she is NOT Muslim, is she? I don’t intend to open the whole veiling can of worms, but I think we can be sure that we would have been specifically instructed to cover were it still considered essential by our Church.

If you read my previous post, you will see that I think and hope she and her sister will be able to come to an agreement about a suitable head covering that coordinates with the bridal party’s attire, so this is likely all moot. However, the wedding day is not about the OP, but rather about her sister and fiance receiving the sacrament of matrimony.

Brides often get more than a little over-emotional about wedding details. I see no need for this to escalate into a family situation that could cause damage to her relationship with her sister. As another poster mentioned, the Lord will surely understand.

I wasn’t attacking you. A handful of others have suggested the same deal, that it’s a personal choice and it shouldn’t take priority over the bride’s happiness. But wearing the veil isn’t about the OP’s happiness. It’s about the OP being obedient to God. That should take priority.

There are any number of other little things that the Church doesn’t directly instruct people to do that we should still do. No where in Church doctrine or teaching does it say that the obligation to veil has been removed. What led to the ceasing of the practice was a Bishop telling a reporter that the subject of veiling was not as important as the other things Vatican II dealt with, never did they say it’s no longer necessary. As I said before, the same could be said with abstaining on Fridays. Or fasting before Communion, for that matter. With so many other things on the Vatican’s plate, veiling is not as important and thus hasn’t been addressed. That does not mean, however, that it’s okay to simply toss it aside until the Church does say something about it. It already has, before Vatican II.

I don’t have issues with women who choose not to veil. That’s between them and God. But I do have issues with people who suggest the practice is not a meaningful one, meaningful beyond one’s own personal choice, as though it’s equatable with someone wearing red on feast days.

 

[dixieagle]

I wasn’t attacking you. A handful of others have suggested the same deal, that it’s a personal choice and it shouldn’t take priority over the bride’s happiness. But wearing the veil isn’t about the OP’s happiness. It’s about the OP being obedient to God. That should take priority.

There are any number of other little things that the Church doesn’t directly instruct people to do that we should still do. No where in Church doctrine or teaching does it say that the obligation to veil has been removed. What led to the ceasing of the practice was a Bishop telling a reporter that the subject of veiling was not as important as the other things Vatican II dealt with, never did they say it’s no longer necessary. As I said before, the same could be said with abstaining on Fridays. Or fasting before Communion, for that matter. With so many other things on the Vatican’s plate, veiling is not as important and thus hasn’t been addressed. That does not mean, however, that it’s okay to simply toss it aside until the Church does say something about it. It already has, before Vatican II.

I don’t have issues with women who choose not to veil. That’s between them and God. But I do have issues with people who suggest the practice is not a meaningful one, meaningful beyond one’s own personal choice, as though it’s equatable with someone wearing red on feast days.

The Church has specifically addressed fast and abstinence in the latest Code of Canon Law (Canon 1253, giving bishops conferences authority to determine norms) and also fasting before Communion (Canon 919.)

However, the 1983 Code of Canon Law could not be more specific with regard to its taking precedence over the Code of 1917:

"Canon 6

§1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated:

1° the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917"

No specific mention of head coverings, men and women sitting separately in church, etc.; thus, no longer a law.

(There are those who will bring up the argument of “custom”, but as head covering was an actual matter of canon law, that is moot, in canonical terms.)

So, by all means, wear a head covering if you feel moved to and believe you are honoring God. Just don’t ascribe undue importance to it that is not borne out by Church law.

 

[Chiltepin]

Tell her you have a small but very prominent and shiny bald spot, and your veil will keep it from reflecting into the camera lens.

This is awesome. My hormones have been pretty crazy according to some recent blood tests and I might be able to get stressed out enough to form a bald spot by May!

I really appreciate the wide range of opinions I have gotten here. I am glad to hear that there are some women here who identify with my strong aversion to appearing before the Blessed Sacrament uncovered. I don’t really have anyone around me who does.

I would not withdraw from the wedding party unless she asked me to.

When it comes to what I would look like as compared to other bridesmaids, there are none. There is only myself and the best man. This is a very small wedding.

It has also been helpful to see the opinions of these women who think I should just concede this point. I think that is more where my sister is sitting on this issue. My mother does not understand but does think I can wear a hat, which I think would be way more of a spectacle and has not been approved by the bride-to-be.

I guess now that I have some opinions and I have seen as expected how polarizing the responses are, I have a question of the ladies who do veil. Seems like those who want me to conceded don’t wear veils to mass and those that do would not go without one. So, to the ladies who do wear veils and do feel strongly, how do we explain this to people who don’t wear head coverings? Why is it so difficult to explain to people? Is there any really good and non inflammatory way you have for explaining how much it means to you?

I also really thank you for all of your alternatives. If conversations go badly, or even if they go very nicely I am liking your ideas of a very fat headband. I really don’t mean to be difficult. I would do anything she asked of me with the exception of this. I would wear a burlap sack and paint my face green because it is her day. I just can’t face Jesus Christ present in the Eucharist without my head covered. It is starting to feel like an odd compulsion or I’m some sick woman because no one understands around here(my family not the forum.)

 

[FanChan]

I guess now that I have some opinions and I have seen as expected how polarizing the responses are, I have a question of the ladies who do veil. Seems like those who want me to conceded don’t wear veils to mass and those that do would not go without one. So, to the ladies who do wear veils and do feel strongly, how do we explain this to people who don’t wear head coverings? Why is it so difficult to explain to people? Is there any really good and non inflammatory way you have for explaining how much it means to you?

Church teachings aside, the whole idea of covering your head has to do with obedience. I think the initial custom of a woman having her head covered goes way back into Old Testament times, since Paul doesn’t give a clear reason as to why a woman covering her head equals obedience. Logically, there aren’t very many meaningful ways for a woman to physically show her obedience to G-d and man, so we might as well stick with a tried and true symbol of it. If anyone does know the actual correlation between the two, I’d love to hear it.

While it’s main purpose is obedience, there are fruits that arise out of this obedience. The first that comes to mind is reverence. Some say that when a woman puts on a skirt, she walks differently than if she were in pants. The same could be said for how she acts when she puts on a veil. Now, it’s possible to be just as reverent without a veil, same as it’s possible to walk just as ladylike in pants as it is in a skirt, but there seems to be less conscious thought involved. It’s a discipline that can center one’s attention on the true purpose of being in the church. With the feel of the weight of something on your head, you’re constantly reminded that you’re here for Christ.

A more sentimental image that comes to mind: That weight of a veil or hat often makes me think of G-d resting his hand on my head, a steady reminder of my relationship with Him, and of His presence in the church.

 

[Chiltepin]

However, the wedding day is not about the OP, but rather about her sister and fiance receiving the sacrament of matrimony.

I am not trying to make this about me, though I can see how the thread makes it seem that way. If I intended it to be about me I would just boldy insist with no consideration for her feelings or wishes. More than just the sacrament of Matrimony is going on here. The bride and groom certainly are the focus of the entire wedding celebration, but they are not the focus of a Mass. Christ’s presence in the Eucharist is the focus of a Mass.

That being said, I do very much appreciate your responses, dixieagle. I find that they will be of a very similar thinking to my family. It is helpful to have this (name removed by moderator)ut before I attempt conversation with my sister again.

FanChan, thank you for your response about your reasons. That is a very beautiful way of putting it. Please, ladies who veil, I would love your (name removed by moderator)ut. Keep it coming!

 

[dixieagle]

Church teachings aside, the whole idea of covering your head has to do with obedience. I think the initial custom of a woman having her head covered goes way back into Old Testament times, since Paul doesn’t give a clear reason as to why a woman covering her head equals obedience. Logically, there aren’t very many meaningful ways for a woman to physically show her obedience to G-d and man, so we might as well stick with a tried and true symbol of it. If anyone does know the actual correlation between the two, I’d love to hear it.

While it’s main purpose is obedience, there are fruits that arise out of this obedience. The first that comes to mind is reverence. Some say that when a woman puts on a skirt, she walks differently than if she were in pants. The same could be said for how she acts when she puts on a veil. Now, it’s possible to be just as reverent without a veil, same as it’s possible to walk just as ladylike in pants as it is in a skirt, but there seems to be less conscious thought involved. It’s a discipline that can center one’s attention on the true purpose of being in the church. With the feel of the weight of something on your head, you’re constantly reminded that you’re here for Christ.

A more sentimental image that comes to mind: That weight of a veil or hat often makes me think of G-d resting his hand on my head, a steady reminder of my relationship with Him, and of His presence in the church.

But, as Catholics, we shouldn’t put “Church teachings aside”, in favor of our own, often imperfect, interpretations of scripture. Perhaps that is real obedience.

To the OP - I do hope that you and your sister can come to an accommodation that makes you both comfortable. With the wide variety of pretty hair ornaments,wispy netting, etc., it seems that it really should not be a big problem, especially as you’re the only attendant.

 

[Chiltepin]

But, as Catholics, we shouldn’t put “Church teachings aside”, in favor of our own, often imperfect, interpretations of scripture. Perhaps that is real obedience.

To the OP - I do hope that you and your sister can come to an accommodation that makes you both comfortable. With the wide variety of pretty hair ornaments,wispy netting, etc., it seems that it really should not be a big problem, especially as you’re the only attendant.

Thank you, I hope we can too. If you don’t mind my asking, how is covering your head “putting Church teachings aside?”

Many of you have referred to this practice as a personal devotion. That seems a fair description, it just seems so odd to me. The secular world is constantly asking us to hide ourselves and put our religious practices out of their view. It makes me very sad that Catholics would ask me to do the same. I am not upset with any of you. You are all helping me to better understand this delicate situation.

 

[FanChan]

But, as Catholics, we shouldn’t put “Church teachings aside”, in favor of our own, often imperfect, interpretations of scripture. Perhaps that is real obedience.

I was merely trying to give the OP a way to explain it to her family without shoving church teaching in their face, to try to help them understand on a more personal and emotional level than by trying to make it seem as though the OP is somehow better than her family.

edit: Ah, no, I see what you were saying. But even so, my use of that statement was still misunderstood. Besides, the OP asked for opinions and advice from fellow veilers. So perhaps you should keep your somewhat harsh comments to yourself in this case?

 

[emarc]

in 1Cor 11:5-6; “but any woman who prays or prophesies w/ her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved. For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.” no wonder most women who enter st. peter basilica in rome are veiled. but why there only?
God bless.

 

[FanChan]

in 1Cor 11:5-6; “but any woman who prays or prophesies w/ her head unveiled brings shame upon her head, for it is one and the same thing as if she had had her head shaved. For if a woman does not have her head veiled, she may as well have her hair cut off. But if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, then she should wear a veil.” no wonder most women who enter st. peter basilica in rome are veiled. but why there only?
God bless.

It’s actually required there. When you go to an audience with the pope, they’ve got complimentary chapel veils for any women who doesn’t have her head covered. Perhaps it’s a clue to the fact that the practice was never meant to die.

I read an anecdote about a very feminist women who went to have an audience with the pope, and refused the veil. Apparently she thought it was degrading (she seemed to be fully aware of the whole obedience thing). Finally, she managed to arrange it with bobby pins so that it wasn’t touching her head. Amazing how much pride some people have.

 

[Extempore]

Chiltepin (and other posters):

Before I “discovered tradition” (as I like to say) I had a similar attitude about the whole veil issue as many of the posters here have exhibited. In other words I thought “Well, yes, that’s all very nice, but kind of pointless”. I was introduced to the subject when a number of more conservative protestant acquaintances of mine took the Corinthians verses to heart and were very adamant about the wearing of headcoverings. Observing this, all those wonderful feminist things I had been taught in the University began to surface when I reflected upon it and it caused me to be secretly embarrassed to consider ever doing something like that. After all, here I am the “modern woman” for all intents and purposes. Weren’t all those women in Church just taking things a little two far?

What changed it for me was a slow influx of humility. I had to realize (through the course of several long and agonizing years) what it actually means to be obedient and to humble oneself in the presence of God. Yeah, I went through the motions but when it came to an outward sign of it? “No way”, I thought.

I’m not sure exactly when my perspective changed. Perhaps it hasn’t even yet changed entirely. I sometimes still have to work to suppress that irksome little inner voice of pride telling me that I look ridiculous, or that it is is pointless or whatever it may say. When this happens, my best solution is to look to the most estimable example of Mary Most Holy who was always humble, always obedient to Our Lord and always unconcerned about how she might be percieved by others. Viewing images of Mary and other saints, I am constantly reminded of this example of purest holiness that fails to concern itself with the trivialities of the world.

In our journey towards holiness there will be many pitfalls (as in the famous book “Pilgrim’s Progress”) and many opportunities and temptations to compromise our piety, our humility for certain things that may seem very legitimate. The things of this world are often seductive and tricky in that way, and I greatly admire those who choose to press onwards even amidst public spite and reprobate.

It is for this reason that I encourage Chiltepin and others here who are committed to this devotion to not waver on a mere whim but to follow instead the examples of so many holy people after whom we have the honor and privilege to model our own lives.

 

[adrift]

It’s actually required there. When you go to an audience with the pope, they’ve got complimentary chapel veils for any women who doesn’t have her head covered. Perhaps it’s a clue to the fact that the practice was never meant to die.

I read an anecdote about a very feminist women who went to have an audience with the pope, and refused the veil. Apparently she thought it was degrading (she seemed to be fully aware of the whole obedience thing). Finally, she managed to arrange it with bobby pins so that it wasn’t touching her head. Amazing how much pride some people have.

I disagree that it is still required.
After reading this thread, I am convinced that veiling is not a good thing. There was a reference that a person was obeying God which indicates that those who do not wear something on their head are not obeying God. The Church abrogated the requirement of women wearing something on their head. What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

 

[Joannm]

It’s actually required there. When you go to an audience with the pope, they’ve got complimentary chapel veils for any women who doesn’t have her head covered. Perhaps it’s a clue to the fact that the practice was never meant to die.

I read an anecdote about a very feminist women who went to have an audience with the pope, and refused the veil. Apparently she thought it was degrading (she seemed to be fully aware of the whole obedience thing). Finally, she managed to arrange it with bobby pins so that it wasn’t touching her head. Amazing how much pride some people have.

A veil or head covering is not required at St. Peter’s nor at an audience with the Pope, at least not 5 years ago when I was last there. Not even with a private audience since I know women who have had a private audience with the pope and did not have to wear anything on their heads.

 

[Janechantal53]

My younger unmarried sister passed away a few years ago of cancer. If I had the opportunity to choose between making my sister happy on the most important day of her life and covering my head out of a preference, something not required by the Church, I would make my sister happy.

God knows the humility in your heart and will thank you for it. He tells us that it is not by outward signs of piousness that we are judged.

 

[Chiltepin]

I disagree that it is still required.
After reading this thread, I am convinced that veiling is not a good thing. There was a reference that a person was obeying God which indicates that those who do not wear something on their head are not obeying God. The Church abrogated the requirement of women wearing something on their head. What you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

Please, please do not turn this thread into a thread about how head coverings are bad.

I came here for help and I find this response pretty upsetting. The reason I put this thread in the traditional catholicism forum was to seek the aid of women involved in the practice. I have also found some of the counterpoints to be very helpful, but they are starting to make me really sad.

My intentions are not to solidfy my place in some obscure obedience hierarchy. Most people who wear veils would probably agree.

It is opinions like this that I firmly believe are what drive Catholics toward movements like SSPX. I’m not about to mess around with that (no offense to those who do.) I’m really just baffled how someone could be so against a practice that no has asked them to do and does them no harm. This is just so discouraging to me.

Let us clarify for the sake of continuing this thread that I am not trying to prove this is a requirement.

Even though I really don’t want to go there on the obedience thing, could praying the rosary daily be considered an act of obedience? I could see how it might be and that is not enforced or required of all Catholics. Most people who do would not try to force it on others. How is this any different?

---

Janechantal53, I am so sorry to hear about your sister. May God bless her and may perpetual light shine upon her.

I find your opinion valuable, but if you don’t mind my asking, do you wear a veil to mass? It is helpful to me in identifying where these opinions are coming from to have this background.

To me covering my head is not merely an outward sign. There is an inner transformation involved in this practice. I don’t do it to look pious as you might be suggesting. This is one of the great troubles with doing this at all is that so many people judge that we are trying to look a certain way or deceive people or something. I usually don’t ask people what they think about it. I usually don’t discuss it except that I found a need to come here for advice on this issue. Some of you have greatly helped me, some have just saddened me. Don’t worry, Janechantal53, your response was helpful I’m not explicitly talking about you. In a way they have all be helpful.

 

[savienu]

But, as Catholics, we shouldn’t put “Church teachings aside”, in favor of our own, often imperfect, interpretations of scripture. Perhaps that is real obedience.

To the OP - I do hope that you and your sister can come to an accommodation that makes you both comfortable. With the wide variety of pretty hair ornaments,wispy netting, etc., it seems that it really should not be a big problem, especially as you’re the only attendant.

Seems to me it was the Code of Canon Law that put Church teaching, and the clear teaching of scripture aside, when it removed the requirement to veil that had been in affect since at least Paul’s time, if not during Old Testament times. Canon Laws are just that, laws, and thus therefore can be prone to error. Either way, it is not DISobedient to veil, as the Canon does not say we CAN not or MUST not veil.