Veneration of Mary and Luke 11:27-28

[Mystophilus]

You seem to be well versed in history…you can start writing papers about such things…why not start…

You are very kind, but there are actually plenty of good works on this topic by specialists in the field, and I am afraid that the public images of such things are not formed on the basis of truth.

 

[joegonz]

And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47* and my spirit rejoices in God my** Savior,** 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

I thought Mary was Sinless why then did she need a Savior?

 

[po18guy]

And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47* and my spirit rejoices in God my** Savior,** 48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; 49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

I thought Mary was Sinless why then did she need a Savior?

Salvation occurred at the moment of her conception. Thus, she was still saved by the grace of God. That same God would ultimately save her even form the oppression of the Romans. Adam and Eve were created after evil existed, yet were also “saved” by the grace of God at the moment of their creation. Both of them fell, while neither Jesus nor Mary did. Actually, Mary could sin, but chose not to, whereas her Divine Son could not sin.

 

[ennio33]

What Jesus didnt say and what he did say sheds light and direction to us catholics over the whole issue of devotion to Mary.

He didnt encourage or affirm the woman’s praise of his mother, but he did remind her of what is truly important to a believer. That is to hear and obey God’s Word.

 

[Sime]

What Jesus didnt say and what he did say sheds light and direction to us catholics over the whole issue of devotion to Mary.

He didnt encourage or affirm the woman’s praise of his mother, but he did remind her of what is truly important to a believer. That is to hear and obey God’s Word.

Actually, that is exactly what Jesus did if you read scripture carefully. Protestants often use this passage (erroneously) to try and denigrate Our Blessed Mother; but in fact Our Lord is actually reaffirming the woman’s praise of His mother. For when Jesus says in (Luke 11:28) " Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it"…He IS speaking about His mother in that verse…….for this is exactly what Mary did in (Luke 1:38). The one who is blessed, just as (Luke 1:48) says.

 

[ready]

I stumbled upon Luke 11:27-28 some time ago and to me it seems to challenge the veneration of Mary. I’ve done some research and haven’t come up with any solid answers thus far. Any thoughts?

This is the true translation, taken from the Douay Rheims Bible:

“But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it.”

Here Jesus is talking about His Mother. He just put doing the will of God (something supernatural) over the natural, which is where it belongs. God bless you.

 

[Cathoholic]

Who is “blessed among women”?

Who is it that “all generations” refer to as “blessed”?

If these two questions are honestly and correctly answered, the readers of this thread will easily be able to understand if Jesus is excluding the BLESSED Virgin Mary from His proclamation in Luke 11:27-28, or . . .

. . . If Jesus is explaining WHY the BLESSED Virgin Mary fits the description par excellance.

 

[Bondservant7]

Question–If this is a website for “catholic answers to explain and defend the faith”, why are individuals banned if they ask tough questions? If they have good questions–let’s answer them!

Please don’t ban me .

 

[Sime]

So what was your question?

 

[zz912]

Question–If this is a website for “catholic answers to explain and defend the faith”, why are individuals banned if they ask tough questions? If they have good questions–let’s answer them!

Please don’t ban me .

You get banned if you are disrespectful or rude. You don’t get banned for asking questions. Is it too much to ask people with questions to be polite?

There are literally thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of questions asked on these message boards. Which question hasn’t been asked and answered?

 

[Bondservant7]

Regarding the banning of individuals–it appeared that people that didn’t agree with you were told to “just follow the leadership” and don’t disagree, and then banned for making a statement that was different from the Catholic church’s point of view–one that could be a non-essential tenant.

For me, the veneration of Mary is the toughest of all Catholic doctrines for me to swallow. Could you please answer these questions (some are about other catholic doctrines)–it is of utmost importance to me!

1. There is so little written about her, yet we spend so much time thinking about and even praying to her to intercede for us to Jesus. It seems like such a distraction from the main thing–when the entire purpose for was Jesus to come and be our direct line and intercessor before God the Father.
2. Mary is blessed (though anyone who is called by God, is blessed anytime we are faithful to His word and His calling), and to be held in high esteem for her faithfulness. But was she not fallible? Didn’t she need Jesus to intercede for her? Why then do we need her to intercede for us? We are in a great cloud of witnesses–and we draw strength from their faithfulness, but there is no one that is good–no not one! (except for Christ!) David was a “man after God’s own heart”–If God looks at the heart of man, and not his appearance–this should be one of the highest honors bestowed upon any person–but we don’t ask him to intercede on our behalf. He failed and sinned in so many terrible ways–but God still used him. God used him in the same ways he used Mary and we should honor and learn from them–but praying to Mary is almost idolization. Idols–anything that takes the rightful place of God. Jesus never taught us to pray to any of the faithful (Moses, Elijah)–just to God the Father through Christ. What is the benefit of talking to the mother of the patient, when you can talk to the Doctor?
3. Were not the disciples “laymen and uneducated”? Why didn’t Jesus choose the educated priests, or at least NOT choose fishermen such as the Boenerges! I understand the importance of tradition, reading the scriptures in context, and having elders/priests to provide discipline and guidance, but I worry that we worry about being so educated and holy that we miss the entire part about Christ being glorified in our weaknesses and using us as we are–of course continuing to sanctify us.
4. I struggle with being unable to NOT sin (even my best is sinful). Pride, and even my best intentioned good deeds are described as filthy rags. I had no choice but to need Christ. What did he expect when he made humans this weak? I pray daily for peace and wisdom in this. I have come to the realization that it is NOT about us. It is about glorifying the father–and that He is glorified in our weaknesses, which is why he gave us the choice, and allowed us to sin–so that he may be ever more GLORIFIED!
5. If someone doesn’t believe in the veneration of Mary, do you think they will not go to heaven? I don’t see that in scripture.

I have been working through these things–and need direction. Would love your advice!

Thank you!

 

[epostle]

Question–If this is a website for “catholic answers to explain and defend the faith”, why are individuals banned if they ask tough questions? If they have good questions–let’s answer them!

Please don’t ban me .

Every forum has rules. No one has ever been banned for asking tough questions. Sometimes a “question” is just an insult. Follow the rules like everybody else and you will have nothing to worry about. Here they are:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=116150

 

[epostle]

Regarding the banning of individuals–it appeared that people that didn’t agree with you were told to “just follow the leadership” and don’t disagree, and then banned for making a statement that was different from the Catholic church’s point of view–one that could be a non-essential tenant.

It’s OK to disagree, you will see the rules, as posted above, are fair and reasonable.

For me, the veneration of Mary is the toughest of all Catholic doctrines for me to swallow. Could you please answer these questions (some are about other catholic doctrines)–it is of utmost importance to me!

Was the Ark of the Covenant just a box or was it venerated? BTW, “veneration” does not mean worship.

1. There is so little written about her, yet we spend so much time thinking about and even praying to her to intercede for us to Jesus. It seems like such a distraction from the main thing–when the entire purpose for was Jesus to come and be our direct line and intercessor before God the Father.

First, Jesus is the sole mediator between God and man. That’s because Jesus is both God AND man.
Second, Mary is just a human. She does not take the place of Jesus in that role. But God can make her a subordinate mediator in much the same way as you are a subordinate mediator when you pray for someone. Mary is just a human, but her role in God’s plan of salvation was necessary. Mary poses no distraction at all.

1. Mary is blessed (though anyone who is called by God, is blessed anytime we are faithful to His word and His calling), and to be held in high esteem for her faithfulness. But was she not fallible?

Mary said, “Do whatever He tells you.” is an infallible statement.

Didn’t she need Jesus to intercede for her?

Only at her conception. God did not HAVE to spare Mary from Original Sin, but He CHOSE to.

Why then do we need her to intercede for us?

We don’t, but it sure helps.

We are in a great cloud of witnesses–and we draw strength from their faithfulness, but there is no one that is good–no not one! (except for Christ!)

Those are two different topics. Heb. 12:1 - the “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) that we are surrounded by is a great amphitheatre of witnesses to the earthly race, and they actively participate and cheer us (the runners) on, in our race to salvation. “but there is no one that is good” refers to the wicked, not the righteous. The idea that all are totally depraved was invented by John Calvin.

David was a “man after God’s own heart”–If God looks at the heart of man, and not his appearance–this should be one of the highest honors bestowed upon any person–but we don’t ask him to intercede on our behalf. He failed and sinned in so many terrible ways–but God still used him. God used him in the same ways he used Mary and we should honor and learn from them–but praying to Mary is almost idolization. Idols–anything that takes the rightful place of God. Jesus never taught us to pray to any of the faithful (Moses, Elijah)–just to God the Father through Christ. What is the benefit of talking to the mother of the patient, when you can talk to the Doctor?

Mary is not an idol and does not take the place of God.
Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31 – deceased Moses and Elijah appear at the Transfiguration to converse with Jesus in the presence of Peter, James and John (these may be the two “witnesses” John refers to in Rev. 11:3). Nothing in Scripture ever suggests that God abhors or cuts off communication between the living in heaven and the living on earth. To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth.

 

[epostle]

1. Were not the disciples “laymen and uneducated”? Why didn’t Jesus choose the educated priests, or at least NOT choose fishermen such as the Boenerges! I understand the importance of tradition, reading the scriptures in context, and having elders/priests to provide discipline and guidance, but I worry that we worry about being so educated and holy that we miss the entire part about Christ being glorified in our weaknesses and using us as we are–of course continuing to sanctify us.

Being holy means following His commandments.

1. I struggle with being unable to NOT sin (even my best is sinful). Pride, and even my best intentioned good deeds are described as filthy rags. I had no choice but to need Christ. What did he expect when he made humans this weak? I pray daily for peace and wisdom in this. I have come to the realization that it is NOT about us. It is about glorifying the father–and that He is glorified in our weaknesses, which is why he gave us the choice, and allowed us to sin–so that he may be ever more GLORIFIED!

We have the means for a true interior transformation, (the sacraments), not a paint job.

1. If someone doesn’t believe in the veneration of Mary, do you think they will not go to heaven?

No.

I don’t see that in scripture.

The basis of all the Marian Doctrines goes back to the Old Testament where we learn about the nature of the sacred.

From the Old Testament we learn that when God sets aside something as sacred and imprints it with His own hand (such as the Ark of the Covenant) that it must be made of the purest materials, unblemished, untouched, and never used for non-sacred purposes either before, during, or after its purpose for being. What is once touched by God in this way must remain pure forever.

We learn these notions from such passages in the Old Testament as the story of the soldiers who saw the Ark of the Covenant begin to fall into the mud and he reached out and grabbed the Ark to prevent it from falling. Despite the fact that he was well-intentioned, he was struck dead on the spot. Why? Because he touched the Holy Ark without having consecrated hands to do so.

Again in the Old Testament we see this notion of pure sacredness. In the Holy of Holies where dwelt the Ark of the Covenant no one could enter except the High Priest once a year. A rope was tied to the ankles of the High Priest before he entered the Holy of Holies. This rope would be used to drag out his body in case he died while in the Holy of Holies. That is how important that the Holiest of holy things that God has set his finger upon MUST be kept untouched and undefiled.

Again in the Old Testament we see this theology of the Sacred in the manner of the Old Testament Sacrifice of the lamb. The lamb had to be a lamb, and not a sheep (in other words, pre-sexual so that the lamb was of course virginal), the lamb had to be free of all blemish and pure. Only then could it be used for sacrifice to God.
This is why the Lamb who took away the sins of the world had to be virginal and unblemished (without sin or flaw). Jesus Christ was that Lamb.
Now with this said, we can begin to understand the Marian doctrines, such as the Ark of the New Covenant.

I have been working through these things–and need direction. Would love your advice!

Thank you!

Please shorten your list of questions.

 

[Sime]

Let’s see what the bible reveals about The Blessed Mother shall we?

Notice in Luke 1:42 that Jesus is called the FRUIT OF Mary’s womb.

Luke 1:42 "and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”

THEN, the bible says in that a bad tree cannot bear good FRUIT,

Luke 6:43-44 “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit; for each tree is KNOWN BY ITS OWN FRUIT.”

AND, the bible says that a tree is RECOGNIZED BY its FRUIT,

Matthew 12:33 “Make a tree good and its FRUIT will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is RECOGNIZED BY its FRUIT.”

Matthew 7:17 “Likewise, every good tree bears good FRUIT, but a bad tree bears bad FRUIT.”

Matthew 7:20 “Thus, by their FRUIT you will RECOGNIZE THEM.”

Then in Luke 1:46 it says Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord. The word here in the greek is “Μεγαλύνει” and is the only time it is used in the New Testament.It means to make clearer, to enlarge, to magnify, enlarge,to make conspicuous.

Then the bible also says that all generations will call her blessed. Wh\at other Church do you know of throughout all generations that has called her blessed?

Now for the Romans 3:23 argument, “for all (pas) have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Consider this passage: Rom 11:26, “ALL Israel shall be saved.”

Yet we know for certain that ‘ALL’ in Israel will not be saved.

Does the word 'ALL" refer to very single person who has ever lived? Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’ in the bible?

John 12:19, “The whole (pas) world has gone after him!” Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ? Of course not.

Matthew 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL (pas)Judea, and ALL (pas) the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”

Was every single individual of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized? Every single person? of course not, we know that isn’t true from the rest of scripture.

1 Corinthians 15:22: “As in Adam all die” Yet we know that Enoch and Elijah did not die.

Rom 15:14, “…you yourselves are full of love, filled with ‘ALL’ (pas) knowledge…”

Here we know for sure that the only person filled with ‘ALL’ knowledge is GOD Himself.

Mark 14:53-64 states “all” the Sanhedrin assembled for Christ’s trial, that the “whole council” sought for testimony against Him and they “all condemned him to death.”

But we know there were exceptions to the “whole” and the “all,” such as Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea. Again, this verbiage indicates a majority of the Sanhedrin or all of its members who were actually in attendance at the trial—but not literally every single person who composed this Jewish council.

Then there’s Romans 3:10-11 “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God.”

We know this is a general statement about the wicked and atheists taken from Psalm 14, and is not talking of every single person but rather those who do to seek God in general. There were in fact those who certainly did obey the command to “seek for God.” They are even called “the righteous” in several places, including this exact same Psalm 14 in verse 5!

As the bible shows there are always exceptions to the normative rule. Did Mary need a saviour? YES! As the Catholic Church has always taught. Yet Mary was “saved” by anticipation, that is, at the moment of her conception in a special way.

Sacred Scripture indicates that salvation can also refer to someone being protected from sinning before the fact:

“Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever.” (Jude 24-25)

This is what Our Lord did for Mary. She was kept free from the stain of sin at the moment of her Immaculate Conception.

 

[Sime]

So little written about her? What bible have you been reading?
The bible refers to Mary not only as ‘the mother of Jesus’, but gives her the title ‘mother of the Lord’ (Luke 1:43). This same word in the greek (Lord - Kyriou) is used to refer to God in (Matthew 1:20), Matthew 1:22, Mark 11:9, Mark 12:11, Luke 1:9 , Luke 1:11, Luke 1:15, and many other verses. Hence the title “Mother of God”.

Second, the bible shows the Saints and Angels in heaven not only praying with us but also offering our prayers to God (Revelation 5:8, Revelation 8:3-4).

Not in the same way. Among all the women that have ever lived in history, and will ever live in the future, none of them will be as Blessed as the Virgin Mary. She was chosen before the foundation of the world for this honour and privilege (and was specially prepared for her role). And so when the Angel Gabriel addressed her, he didn’t call her by her name “Mary”, he literally hailed her with the title “Full of Grace!” Kecharitomenae" It is amazing how people always overlook that. Examples:

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