Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Are you sure about that? I think it is covered quite well in the first chapter of Acts when Matthias was selected as Judas’ successor.

You overlook the details. Who choose Matthias? Men or God? Was it God purpose and plan to use a) 12 and later Paul and b) that Judas Iscariot was to be the son of perdition? So is Paul also a successionary plan? Does a replacement make a sucessionary plan? Does the Bible warn and give the result of not heeding such a warning concerning the paying attention to “successions” of spiritual leaders? What is God’s design and plan for overseers and deacons in the local churchs? In that plan is there sucession as you know and understand? What was the purpose for the pastoral letters? If you are able to search the Scriptures and find that warning, then look at the predicted result of not heeding the warning; it is what we see throughout church history even to this day.

Not so fast there lady. First of all, who said Matthias was an Apostle? Second, do you know what Apostolic Succession means? Apostolic Succession is the line of authority from the original Apostles down the centuries to the bishops of the church. It does not mean one Apostle succeeding another. As for Matthias he was no Apostle. He was a bishop. Scripture only says he was “numbered with the eleven Apostles” [Acts 1:26]. If he was made an Apostle shouldn’t Acts 1:26 say He was numbered with the twelve Apostles? And the cumbersome phrase “…was numbered with…” Why not just say he was made an Apostle, if, indeed, he was an Apostle? Also, was Judas ever an Apostle? To be an apostle one had to be picked by God and sent. Judas was never sent. Neither was Matthias. In Acts 1:17 Peter says of Judas:

"17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.’ [Acts 1:17]

So Judas also was only numbered with the Apostles because he had, According to Peter, only obtained part of the ministry. The sending of the Apostles occurred at the time of the Great Commission after Judas died and before Matthias was elected. Paul is the twelfth Apostle as he was picked by God and sent to the Gentiles. Matthias’ claim to fame is that he was the first non apostle bishop. He would be followed by others like Timothy and Titus, Elvodius, Clement, etc. But Matthias is the first of the Apostolic Succession of bishops in the Catholic Church.

God chose the Apostles but men, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit choose bishops.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Trying to create a strawman are you? The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you go back to your post #520 you said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” I then showed that Paul’s writing did not contain the beatitudes which are definitely a part of the gospel that Jesus preached. Now I am sure that Paul preached the beatitudes he just didn’t write about them. So obviously there is part of the gospel not contained in Paul’s writings.

Explain the gospel to me please? What is the good news? Is it the beattitudes? You obviously do not know so I would probably just not even attempt and just call it “straw-man”; it is much easier to say when you do not understand.

No the beatitudes are not the entire gospel but they are part of the gospel. After all, Jesus preached them didn’t He?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkaneer
No, none of the scripture writers said there was more gospel. Of course though you do know that Jesus told the Apostles, as recorded in John 16:12:

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [John 16:12]

Jesus answered the question, but at the time they, the Apostles were not ready to hear everything especially about the fact He was going to Jersusalem to die among other things.

Joh 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you. ------- John 16

If you would have kept reading and associated with what Jesus had already told them, then you would have had your answer.

Once again you err. Jesus never said what it was that the Apostle could no bear to hear at that time nor doe the scripture say when they would be able to bear to hear it. It certainly was not that Jeus was going to Jerusalem to die as you claim because He already told them that. In John 11 when Jesus goes to raise Lazarus Thomas says in verse 16:

" Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellowdisciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him." [John 11:16]

**THEY KNEW!!! ** So this something else That Jesus did not tell the Apostles at that time and which is not recorded if He ever did tell them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Our understanding of the Trinity does not come from scripture. It comes from the church in the fifth century. The Trinity is understood by christians [those who are trinitarian] both then and today in terms that come from Greek philospophy and not from scripture. Such things as essence as substance are totally foreign to the scriptures and Jewish philosophical thought.

No one can fully understand the Trinitarian nature of God because it is beyond our understanding, but Scripture does not hide it either. In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Name entails all the attributes and character of a person; yet this statement gives 3 persons in one sigular Name; so the Trinity is there just by the gramattical construction and if you seek the Scriptures for the attributes and character of all 3, then you get the sum total, which is way beyond human understanding. If you see Jesus Baptism you will see all 3 at work. So nothing is hidden.

Tell that to a Unitarian and you will be told otherwise. Actually our understanding of the Trinity comes not from the Scriptures although there are references to One God andFather Somn and Holy Spirit. But the scriuptures don’t tell us if the three are 1/3 God or wholely God. Our understanding came about as a result of the church correcting various heresies about Jesus and his wills, his nature , etc. Also about the Holy Spirit. But just redaing scripture one could think of one God with three modalities and be a Unitarian .

No one has proven me wrong as of yet and when I am wrong I count it as joy because something new has been given to me by God concerning Him.

Well I have proved you wrong several times but you are too vain to admit it.

 

[QuickCat]

Trying to create a strawman are you? The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you go back to your post #520 you said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” I then showed that Paul’s writing did not contain the beatitudes which are definitely a part of the gospel that Jesus preached. Now I am sure that Paul preached the beatitudes he just didn’t write about them. So obviously there is part of the gospel not contained in Paul’s writings.

No, none of the scripture writers said there was more gospel. Of course though you do know that Jesus told the Apostles, as recorded in John 16:12:

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [John 16:12]

Scripture does not record when they could bear them. Was it before the Apostles died? Was it before they wrote scripture. Unfortunately the scriptures are silent as to when these things will be told to the church. Some things we know will never be told such as when the Second Coming will occur. But there were some things that obviously were not told to the Apostles. One example is the Trinity. Our understanding of the Trinity does not come from scripture. It comes from the church in the fifth century. The Trinity is understood by christians [those who are trinitarian] both then and today in terms that come from Greek philospophy and not from scripture. Such things as essence as substance are totally foreign to the scriptures and Jewish philosophical thought.

Yeah, so what? Just another strawman argument to try to deflect attention away from the fact that you were wrong when you said, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” But this quote from scripture actually works against you because in it Paul states very clearly that he was sent to PREACH the gospel and NOT TO WRITE IT. So Paul’s writings do not contain the full gospel like I said previously.

Paul preached the FULL gospel of the grace of God. He is the first to do so. I am so sorry that you are blind to this. You cite our Lord in Acts 1:8. In preparation for the ushering in of the earthly kingdom for Israel, our Lord Jesus Christ imbued the 11 with the power of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist has foretold this in Matthew 3:11. You also cite Acts 2. Please note to whom Peter is speaking. This fits with the impending offer of the return of our Lord for the establishing of this kingdom [Acts 3:19-21]. Question: Why do you think the 11 made it their first order of business, after our Lord ascended, to bring their number back up to 12? Could it be that they recalled the promise of the Lord in Matthew 19:28? The Body of Christ is not in view in the Scriptures you cite. Israel and the coming kingdom are.

 

[Pete_Holter]

We believe that it is Jesus Who baptizes us with His Spirit through human agency.

Interesting interpretation of Scripture; I would like to see where this confounded explanation is taught in Catholic doctrine.

Hi Beth!

I am following up on this because you had asked about it. If you’d like me to respond to anything else that you have written to me or to others, or someone else would like me to, I’ll do that too. Let me know!

That Jesus is the One Who baptizes inwardly when people baptize outwardly serves as the basis for the Catholic teaching that anyone can baptize. Thomas Aquinas wrote,

‘The man who baptizes offers but his outward ministration; whereas Christ it is Who baptizes inwardly, Who can use all men to whatever purpose He wills …] as Pope Nicolas I says, “the Baptism is not theirs,” i.e., the baptizers’, “but His,” i.e., Christ’s’ (, Part 3, Question 67Summa Theologica).

And Augustine taught,

“It may perhaps surprise you why it is said, that ‘Jesus baptized more than John’ (John 4:1); and after this was said, it is subjoined, ‘although Jesus baptized not, but His disciples’ (John 4:2). What then? Was the statement made false, and then corrected by this addition? Or, are both true, viz. that Jesus both did and also did not baptize? He did in fact baptize, because it was He that cleansed; and He did not baptize, because it was not He that touched. The disciples supplied the ministry of the body; He afforded the aid of His majesty. Now, when could He cease from baptizing, so long as He ceased not from cleansing? Of Him it is said by the same John, in the person of the Baptist, who says, ‘This is He that baptizes’ (John 1:33). Jesus, therefore, is still baptizing; and so long as we continue to be baptized, Jesus baptizes. Let a man come without fear to the minister below; for he has a Master above” (Tractate 15 on the Gospel of John).

Have a blessed day, Beth!

For Your glory!
Pete

 

[Beth_Martin]

What do you mean by that statement, Beth? I’ve been reading it over and over, trying to make some sense of it!

If your understanding (of Scripture presumably?) is contrary to the (true meaning presumably? of) Scriptures, how would you even know? You refuse to accept any authority such as Apostolic Tradition to inform you or the Magisterium of the Church to teach you (“understandest thou what thou readest?”). You merely claim the Holy Spirit as your personal guide - as does every other person who propounds their own interpretation of a Scripture verse - which might be very different from yours.

So if any of you were off track, how would you even know? How would any of you who reject Church teaching know?

And say, you did discover somehow that your understanding about something had been faulty, what happens then? Remember, all you can do is check your understanding of things, against… well… your own understanding of things!

Frightening, isn’t it?

If I come across something like Acts 2:38 where it appears at first read that water baptism is necessary for salvation; yet I understand in other places Acts 10 & 11 when it is mentioned that it is not a necessity plus I know the Bible teaches Grace on the basis of faith (Galatians 3, Romans 4 & 8 & 10 among others) and I know the OT saints were saved by faith (Hebrews 11) and not by works, then Act 2:38 appears needs to be reconcilled and my initial understanding is not correct.

This is what I mean when I say that if I come across something I do not understand, but I should have clarified by stating when something appears to contradict a teaching that I already understand.

In one way Catholics have it easier for they do not need to work hard in the Scriptures because all the understanding is provided by your church, but in some ways it is more difficult because you have more to understand all the traditions and the rules in proper preparations and then acting on them. I have looked at a couple of the resources maybe good maybe not from a Catholic perspective and you can find a thick book just explaining graces. The Bible provides more than a lifetime of study; you all seem to have several lifetimes of written material.

 

[Beth_Martin]

You quite correctly said in your last post that no one can enter heaven with sin, but now it seems you’ve decided there’s some kinda short cut after all - like being “covered by the Blood of Jesus”** maybe? … so that your sins suddenly become invisible to the Father?

Oh, whatever…

What an idea?
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! ------ Psalm 32
You forgave the iniquity of Your people; You covered all their sin. Selah. -------Psalm 85
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. -Psalm 103

"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” ----Romans 4

17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. --------Romans 6

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. --Ro. 6

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8

There are many more but that is enough except fo r this one:
"but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. ------ Exactly why we need the Savior to save us from something, the penalty of sin, which is death and it was covered by Christ Jesus.

 

[fxcc]

if I come across something I do not understand,

If the Holy Spirit is indeed within you, and interpreting for you what you’re reading, (as you claim), how would it be that you could chance upon something that you would **not **understand? Please try not to answer with a question!

I’ve made the point several times that if the Spirit is indeed at work helping individual believers infallibly understand/interpret Scripture by themselves (without the need for an authoritative earthly teacher), then someone needs to explain why there are so many different interpretations of the same Scripture emanating from the various faith groups.

Each one’s simply making up their own interpretations, using their own imperfect intellects, aren’t they? You included, right? If there are so many irreconcilable meanings of the Word of God floating about in Christianity, is it any wonder that the rest of the world does not see the Truth and cannot, indeed, believe? Who would they believe? The Catholic Church? Beth Martin? Luther or Calvin or Zwingli? Or X or Y or Zee?

Isn’t it so ironic that the very people who are most instrumental in causing the ugly and public dissensions in Christianity like to turn around and cutely remind us all, “God is not the author of confusion!”?

 

[fxcc]

What an idea?
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! ------ Psalm 32
You forgave the iniquity of Your people; You covered all their sin. Selah. -------Psalm 85
As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us. -Psalm 103

"BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 “BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.” ----Romans 4

17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. --------Romans 6

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. --Ro. 6

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. Romans 8

There are many more but that is enough except fo r this one:
"but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. ------ Exactly why we need the Savior to save us from something, the penalty of sin, which is death and it was covered by Christ Jesus.

I think you missed the whole point, Beth.

I was hardly disputing the fact that Christ’s blood is redemptive. I was pointing out that it doesn’t serve to hide unconfessed (and therefore unforgiven) sins, which I daresay a great many of us are likely to die with! Which necessitates (unless the sins are grievous enough to condemn us to hell in any case) a process of purgation before we can enter heaven.

Martin Luther writes:

“Be a sinner and sin boldly … No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”
(Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, American Edition, Luther’s Works, vol. 48, pp. 281-82.)

St Paul writes:
“Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Obviously one believes his (mis)deeds are so covered by the the Blood of Christ that his eternal union with the Lamb is guaranteed no matter what, whereas the other believes that the (unrepentant) sinner isn’t going anywhere, Blood or no covering Blood of Christ. That’s Catholic teaching. Just as the Blood the the Passover Lamb had to be applied to the doorposts of one’s house to protect one from the angel of death, so too the merits of the Perfect Sacrifice have to be applied to the soul of each individual believer - with the believer’s co-operation, conversion and refraining from sin. (“Go and sin no more”)

 

[tskrobacz]

God is One and for all.

God is sovereign to any group ownership or personal manipulation.

God is available as free gift and not through sacrificing another.

God needs no victims and creates no victims.

Jesus personifies this type of God and speaks defiantly in defense of such a God. Nowhere is he more succinct than when he quotes the Prophet Hosea, “Go and learn the meaning of the words: Mercy is what pleases me, not sacrifice” (Matthew 9:13).

 

[inkaneer]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Trying to create a strawman are you? The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you go back to your post #520 you said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” I then showed that Paul’s writing did not contain the beatitudes which are definitely a part of the gospel that Jesus preached. Now I am sure that Paul preached the beatitudes he just didn’t write about them. So obviously there is part of the gospel not contained in Paul’s writings.

Paul preached the FULL gospel of the grace of God. He is the first to do so. I am so sorry that you are blind to this. You cite our Lord in Acts 1:8. In preparation for the ushering in of the earthly kingdom for Israel, our Lord Jesus Christ imbued the 11 with the power of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist has foretold this in Matthew 3:11. You also cite Acts 2. Please note to whom Peter is speaking. This fits with the impending offer of the return of our Lord for the establishing of this kingdom [Acts 3:19-21]. Question: Why do you think the 11 made it their first order of business, after our Lord ascended, to bring their number back up to 12? Could it be that they recalled the promise of the Lord in Matthew 19:28? The Body of Christ is not in view in the Scriptures you cite. Israel and the coming kingdom are.

I take it you can’t read or if you can then you have a comprehension problem. Please re-read my post which I included above. Please notice where I said:

"The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of Paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you [Beth Martin] go back to your post #520 you [Beth Martin] said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.”

So the issue thgat I was discussing with Beth Martin was what Paul WROTE not what Paul PREACHED. So when you now say Paul “PREACHED THE FULL GOSPEL”, I say, "Yeah, I know but He DIDN’T WRITE THE FULL GOSPEL. Understand now?

In addition you are apparently very confused. I never cited Acts 1:8 for anything. The rest of your post is jibberish. Apparently it was meant as a response to someone else.

 

[Des]

How could anyone claim to believe and actually and truely believe with the intent of disobedience? They can’t; it is a false profession of belief and Jesus does not accept a false faith.

Thereby answering the question you put to me earlier.

I am not sure how you define OSAS, but the perseverance of the saints is a gift of God as well so the one that has been sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of full redemption cannot break the bond and will persever as it is the power of God, not the will or strength of the believer that achieves this.

I’ve already shown you what sin can do to one’s relationship with God. I’m pretty certain you sin. So that verse likewise applies to you EVERYTIME you sin. Unless you’re immaculate of course which I highly doubt.

Then God is not sovereign in salvation; I do not know how God justly chooses some and not others and holds that responsibility for rejecting onto the non-Christian or how He gives the gift of faith to believe, but when I do know I will also know it was fair and just.

Of course He is in charge. Without His gift of Salvation we couldn’t get to Heaven. But that doesn’t mean we don’t play a part in it either. For example, everytime you pray for someone you’re cooperating with God to help others. Or do you no longer have free will since you were “saved”. As if He is forcing you to pray.
God could do it all Himself but that’s just not in His divine plan or else He’d make it rain food everyday for the hungry.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And why exactly are the ‘aready saved’ told to be sympathetic, humble, and to love? Seems it would be automatic and no need for them to even be taught this doesn’t it. After all, loving one another is the 2nd greatest Commandment of Christ and if a ‘saved’ person has to be told this as a reminder, then it sounds to me that he/she can fall away if they don’t be careful.

**1 Peter 3:8 - **Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

Peter tells us that faith is also a gift of God.

And Peter would be correct!

Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

In order for this gift of faith to be received, you have to do your part and accept it. However, at any moment you can give it back to Him by your sins as Christ tells us in that verse.

All saints of the OT or NT are justifed and saved by faith alone in God, Jesus is God. Circumcision of the flesh and water baptism of the flesh in no way adds to salvation; God has purposed it and He has done it.

The discussion was started by you telling me that ALL of the Saints knew who Christ was.
Regardless, It would make God into an ogre to suggest He allowed you a free get out of hell card but poor Timmy down the street is going to be roasting away for all eternity just for existing. The absurdity is too much for me to even comprehend.

Ezekiel 3:20 “If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die”.

 

[Tomb54]

If I come across something like Acts 2:38 where it appears at first read that water baptism is necessary for salvation; yet I understand in other places Acts 10 & 11 when it is mentioned that it is not a necessity plus I know the Bible teaches Grace on the basis of faith (Galatians 3, Romans 4 & 8 & 10 among others) and I know the OT saints were saved by faith (Hebrews 11) and not by works, then Act 2:38 appears needs to be reconcilled and my initial understanding is not correct.

This is what I mean when I say that if I come across something I do not understand, but I should have clarified by stating when something appears to contradict a teaching that I already understand.

In one way Catholics have it easier for they do not need to work hard in the Scriptures because all the understanding is provided by your church, but in some ways it is more difficult because you have more to understand all the traditions and the rules in proper preparations and then acting on them. I have looked at a couple of the resources maybe good maybe not from a Catholic perspective and you can find a thick book just explaining graces. The Bible provides more than a lifetime of study; you all seem to have several lifetimes of written material.

It is true we have several lifetimes of written material. Almost 2000 years worth.

 

[Tomb54]

fxcc,

My sins are totally forgiven the moment I sincerely confess and repent to God and Jesus, and are covered by the blood of Jesus,

Isn’t that what you believe?.

If not, what sin is there God will not forgive in which you confess to Him?

there is only one sin…that is the one which we do not confess and hold onto.
How can God forgive sin if we are not sorry for committing it?

thank you ,
mpjw

Actually the Bible stes that you can do thing that while you might have to pay you will still be saved in the end.

If you need the verse I can find it but off the top of my head I can’t think where it is at. Read it this week in the NT readings.

 

[Tomb54]

Paul preached the FULL gospel of the grace of God. He is the first to do so. I am so sorry that you are blind to this. You cite our Lord in Acts 1:8. In preparation for the ushering in of the earthly kingdom for Israel, our Lord Jesus Christ imbued the 11 with the power of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist has foretold this in Matthew 3:11. You also cite Acts 2. Please note to whom Peter is speaking. This fits with the impending offer of the return of our Lord for the establishing of this kingdom [Acts 3:19-21]. Question: Why do you think the 11 made it their first order of business, after our Lord ascended, to bring their number back up to 12? Could it be that they recalled the promise of the Lord in Matthew 19:28? The Body of Christ is not in view in the Scriptures you cite. Israel and the coming kingdom are.

You where there? How do you know he was the first to preach it? I am not sure we have a good account of what wach and every Apostle taught and to whom. Also was Paul then the 13th Apostle? Thought 12 Apostle were to Judge the 12 tribes of Israel

 

[fxcc]

In one way Catholics have it easier for they do not need to work hard in the Scriptures because all the understanding is provided by your church

Actually all necessary understanding is provided to us by the **Holy Spirit ** - working in and through His Church. So we don’t have to individually re-invent the wheel, or worse, end up with square ones that won’t get us too far at all! And that’s exactly as it should be - the Good News is readily available and tellable to even the most illiterate and unschooled of believers, not just to a bunch of perennially pontificating pundits!

On the other hand, we Catholics have to work very hard at keeping the Commandments, arguably a lot harder than those of our brethren who can talk away just about any implication of God’s Word with some self serving, manipulated interpretation of Scripture. When Christ says, “This is my Body, take and eat”, we Catholics tremble. And we eat. When He says “This is my blood. Take. Drink,” we shudder and beg mercy for our unworthiness. Then we drink. We **don’t **opt for replacement crackers and grape juice which aren’t “truly, truly” going to become the flesh and blood of the sacrificed Lamb of God, given for our partaking unto eternal life. If any Christian should read John 6 and not understand what the Lord is so repeatedly and so clearly and so emphatically saying in those passages, then truly, truly, that man’s lack of understanding (or refusal to accept in faith Christ’s “hard teachings” about the nature of His life-giving Eucharist) disqualifies him from being trusted on any scripture at all! He truly is a danger to himself and to all who he succeeds in persuading away from the source, centre and summit of authentic Christianity.

 

[paul_c]

Beth Martin, QuickCat and other non-Catholics on this thread:

I want to draw your attention to Matthew 16:
13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

You see, it is very clear from this passage that Jesus founded a Chuch and he put St. Peter in charge of it.

Now you claim to be Christians but you list your religion as “none” or “no”. You claim to follow the bible, yet you simultaneously deny The Catholic church, which Jesus clearly founded. How do address this contradiction?

Further, I draw your attention to the end of Matthew’s gospel, chapter 28:
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

You see, this is where Jesus commissioned the early church to go out to teach and administer the sacraments. Yet you deny both functions. Why would he tell them to baptize if it was not important. And why would they be told to teach the people to observe all that was commanded of them if it was unimportant. And notice how he reiterated he woudl be with the church, yet you yourselves have abandonned in. Notice that the things you hold as the true gospel: faith alone and sola scriptura are not included in the great commission. Why do you think that is?

Do you ever notice that you pay far more attention to St. Paul than to the actual Gospels? Do you know why that is? it is because of what St pete said in 2Peter 3;

13 But according to his promise we await new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

As St. Peter recognized, Paul’s writings are easily distorted, the Gospels less so.

The Bible was developed by the Catholic Church as a teaching and liturgical tool as inspired by the holy spirit. As such it perfectly fits Catholic theology. There are no descrepancies. We don’t have the awkward situations where what we calim is directly refuted by the Bible : (.i.e., Faith without works is Dead ", St. James 2: 24).

or 1Peter3:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

 

[mpjw2]

How can I be sure that when I die I won’t have any sins on my soul which I haven’t confessed (or **never had a chance **to confess) - sins, which therefore, have not been forgiven?

fxcc …excellent question to which I have a simple answer…have faith and trust God.

I had the same challenges you expressed when I did not understand God’s word in the bible.

first the faith issue…

faith is not easy…it was best illustrated to me this way and I hope it helps you…

Over 100 years ago, a French tightrope walker named Blondin walked across Niagara Falls in front of a crowd of 100,000 people.
He then asked the crowd this question, “Do you believe I can walk across these falls with a man on my back?”
The whole crowd cheered, “Yes, we believe!” He then retorted, “Then who wants to get on my back?”
Needless to say, no one raised his or her hand. Blondin’s manager then climbed aboard his back and made the harrowing journey across the Falls.

Many people believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins, but are unwilling to completely trust Him with their lives.

Faith means we completely trust.

fxcc, let go of your fear and jump on Jesus’s back and let Him carry you.

fxcc, in our imperfect human shells we live in and our imperfect memory we have we are going to forget sins we comitted.

If God can forgive a thief dying on a cross , my post #570, He sure will forgive you.
the thief did not express to Jesus all the sins he comitted. His faith and believe and “blanket confession” saved him

You can say a prayer of confession to God right where you are right now. God will hear you and forgive you. He knows the sincerity of your heart. And since you have fear about sin that you forgot about, express that also to God in you confession. He will forgive you.

Something to the effect of…Dear God, I believe in you and your son Jesus Christ and by His blood my sins are forgiven. God I am sorry I sinned against you by _________________. Also God If you are aware of any blemish (sin) on my soul that I forgot about I ask you in Jesus name to cleanse and forgive me so that should I die you will welcome me into heaven. God it is my desire not to sin and follow your ways in my life.

fxcc…just because a priest is not present does not mean God does not hear your sincerity when you pray to Him. God will not let you down when you express your trust and faith in Him

in 2 Corinthians 5

14 Christ’s love controls us. Since we believe that Christ died for all, we also believe that we have all died to our old life. 15 He died for everyone so that those who receive his new life will no longer live for themselves. Instead, they will live for Christ, who died and was raised for them.

16 So we have stopped evaluating others from a human point of view. At one time we thought of Christ merely from a human point of view. How differently we know him now! 17 This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!

fxcc… everytime we confess our sin to God the sin which stained us has gone and a new clean life has begun.

If you are like me, that new life does not stay clean for long…darn satan and his temptations. Not a week goes by that I do not need to confess and start a new life once again.

sometimes I make daily confessions. and there are times hourly confessions whatever it takes to stay clean with God.

Please do not mistake the message here. God’s grace is not a free ticket to sin anyway we please.

In our walk with God, He knows our sincerity in wanting to be “christ-like” in our walk with Him…but we are human and will fall on occasion and God understands that our flesh is weak.

Also in Romans 10 states “salvation is for everyone”

9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. 11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” 12 Jew and Gentile[f] are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him. 13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Do you think there might be lots and lots of people who die with some unforgiven sin or other on their souls? Is it probable in fact that most people die with some unconfessed/unforgiven sin(s) on their soul? If so, what happens to them?

fxcc …the same I express to you applies to all people.

In summary I believe if a person is aware of sin and is not willing to confess and repent and they die with that sin… they will not enter heaven

If a person desires to remain pure in their walk with the Lord, that person will be in as much prayer as necessary to keep themself clean and forgiven of all the sin they fell into on their journey.

I have no doubt that person is you and I look forward to seeing you in paradise

God bless you

mpjw2

 

[mpjw2]

Actually the Bible stes that you can do thing that while you might have to pay you will still be saved in the end.

If you need the verse I can find it but off the top of my head I can’t think where it is at. Read it this week in the NT readings.

Hi Tomb, I am not quite sure what you are saying here…try again

thank you

mpjw2

 

[mpjw2]

Beth Martin, QuickCat and other non-Catholics on this thread:

I want to draw your attention to Matthew 16: ]

Hi paul c

thank you for pointing out one of many areas catholics anf non catholics disagree.
…interpretation of scripture

we see it one way and you see it another.

I for one am willing to accept our differences and let God be God.
It is obvious that we can not both be right on a lot of issues between the churches

here our a few more

is the Host miraculously change to Jesus body?
does purgatory exist?
Does God want us to pray for the dead
Did Mary have other children after Jesus

as you I am sure are aware there are many more

Paul, as in my previous post,
I believe we catholics and non catholics can agree on certain facts.

I look forward to you to stating yes or no to my agreement questions in red

here it is again…

Hi all,

I firmly believe that … whether you are catholic or not catholic, had prior exposure to the catholic church or never set foot in a catholic church … Salvation is for all mankind, no exceptions.

According to the bible, God makes it clear that salvaton is a personal choice.

If you are like me, hasn’t everyone sinned at one time or another? Broken at least one of the 10 commandments? i.e. (telling a lie, stealing something, lusting over another person or cursed against God)?

from the above example I am a lying adulterer thief who takes the Lord’s name in vain.

I do not believe there is a perfect sinless human living today or will ever be.
There was only one perfect person…His name Jesus Christ.

Sadly, I have communicated with catholics who argued with me that Jesus was not sinless.
Is there anyone here who believes that. I hope not. Jesus was and is without sin…God in the flesh.

Do you agree Jesus was without sin?

I believe all christians …catholic, baptists, protestant, lutheran, pentecostal, presbyterian etc… all believe the following facts regarding God, Jesus Christ, sin and salvation.

The fact that we all belong to an imperfect sinful world population… is bad news because the bible states, we are all doomed to hell … we must be punished for our sin.

We can not enter heaven with sin …agree?

The good news is…God, because He loves you and I, provided the ONE AND ONLY WAY for us to be with Him in heaven …

2000 years ago God made Himself human and walked the earth in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching and healing which caused a lot of people to believe in
him.

However, there were many who did not believe who Jesus claimed to be (the Messiah, the Son of God) and saw Him as a threat because they were not willing to accept the truth about who Jesus said He was. Thereby, they shouted out for Jesus to be crucified and for Pontius Pilate to release a criminal.

agree?

Before being crucified, Jesus was beaten, tortured and flogged.
In Jesus’s death on the cross He, being a sinless man, took upon Himself all the sins you and I ever committed or will commit.

agree?

So instead of us having to pay the punishment (hell) for our sin,
Jesus took our place and died for us so we would not have to be punished forever.

agree?

…the bible comfirms this…

**For God so loved **the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Belief is the first step, however just believing God does not forgive your sin.
the bible also says you must confess your sin.

agree?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

also…you will need to repent
agree?

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:13

The one and only way to be forgiven of our sins is by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

agree?

Jesus said … “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me John 14:6

In summary…If we want to go to heaven and be forgiven of all your sin, there is only ONE way…

Ist … Admit that we are sinners
2nd… Believe, Trust in the promise of God and in the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus Christ
3rd… Confess and repent our sin with sincerity from the bottom of our hearts
4th… Trust Jesus, who now reigns in heaven, to be Lord and saviour of our lives
5th … be in continuing prayer and confession to God, unfortunately we are not perfect and will always stumble (sin) until the day we die on earth

Agree?

Thank God for His loving grace that He is willing to give us 2nd, 3rd, 100, 10 x 10,000 and more chances in life so that we do not have to die a 2nd death and spend eternity in hell for our sin.

Here are a few of my favorite you tube videos…

He knows my name
youtube.com/watch?v=GInxDhcR_O4&feature=related

because He lives
youtube.com/watch?v=MQBBihRwP8o

Martina Mcbride …“anyway”
youtube.com/watch?v=Cr_iNfxZl0I

I pray and hope I will see you all in paradise.

God bless you all

Thank you for your time

mpjw

 

[fxcc]

I believe if a person is aware of sin and is not willing to confess and repent and they die with that sin… they will not enter heaven
mpjw2

My question was: do you think there might be lots and lots of people who die with some unforgiven sin or other on their souls? Is it probable in fact that most people die with some unconfessed/unforgiven sin(s) on their soul? If so, what happens to them?

Your above answer doesn’t actually deal with this. The point you make concerns only people who aren’twilling to confess/repent of their sins. They’re not the people I was talking about.

You haven’t answered what happens to people with un-confessed and un-forgiven sins on their souls, which, say, they didn’thave an opportunity (or remember) to confess before they died.

You blithely declare that you don’t believe in Purgatory - not to say that your believing or not believing in something makes an iota of difference to the truth of its existence, as taught to us by God through His Church.

I’m just trying to figure out how, given your nonchalant unbelief in selected doctrines of the faith, you deal with questions like the simple one I asked. That’s all!