Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[fxcc]

Beth,
The Gospel was passed on by word of mouth in the beginning for very practical reasons:

1. The books of the new testament had not been written
2. Even if it had been written, many couldn’t read.

So how did anyone know what to believe if it wasn’t written down? This is where Apostolic succession comes in. The Apostles were given their teaching authority by Jesus. Peter was made their leader to insure their was a common basis for the teaching. The Apostles gave authority to teach to trustworthy men. To demonstrate this, they were ordained bishops. These bishops were given the authority to name other bishops. The bishop of Rome was given authority over all other bishops to settle disputes. If significant questions arose, councils were called. the first of these, the council of Jerusalem was called in 49 AD and is described in Acts 15. The truth has thus been passed down for 2000 years from man to man, with ordination demonstrating that they were trustworthy.

Eventually, the teachings were written down in the form of the Gospels. to this was added the epistles, Acts, and revelation. It was codified in 382AD The criteria for inclusion in the bible was that the teachings had to be apostolic, had to be well know and had to be orthodox Catholic teaching as agreed in local council and validated by PopeSt. Damascus. He put St. Jerome in charge of converting the bible into Latin. His version, the vulgate was used for over 1000 years to teach the tenets of the faith

With the advent of the printing press, the bible became available to the masses, Arrogant men decided that they could read the bible on their own and understand what it meant better than those that had been trained in the truth by the bishops. These men, like Martin Luther, declared that each man , armed with a copy of the bible, could be his own authority, never acknowledging that by selectively choosing only those words and verses that appealed to them, men could make scripture say anything they pleased. In fact, Satan used scripture to test Jesus, did he not?

Jesus established a church to teach the Gospel and administer the sacraments for a reason. Unfortunately, there are many people who second guess Jesus on this, beleiving to their own detriment that they don’t need what he put in place.

After all the prolific profound pontificating how refreshing to be reminded of some simple truths! Thank you, Paul.

Methinks everyone who has contributed to this exhaustive (and exhausting?) thread deserves a wee reward:

yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=544747



God bless you all!

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally posted by inkaneer
Not so fast there lady. First of all, who said Matthias was an Apostle? Second, do you know what Apostolic Succession means? Apostolic Succession is the line of authority from the original Apostles down the centuries to the bishops of the church. It does not mean one Apostle succeeding another. As for Matthias he was no Apostle. He was a bishop. Scripture only says he was “numbered with the eleven Apostles” [Acts 1:26]. If he was made an Apostle shouldn’t Acts 1:26 say He was numbered with the twelve Apostles? And the cumbersome phrase “…was numbered with…” Why not just say he was made an Apostle, if, indeed, he was an Apostle? Also, was Judas ever an Apostle? To be an apostle one had to be picked by God and sent. Judas was never sent. Neither was Matthias. In Acts 1:17 Peter says of Judas:

"17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.’ [Acts 1:17]

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. -----Acts 1:26

Numbered is equivilent to “added to” in the context of the verse and the reason it says to the 11 is because Iscariot was dead and no longer an Apostle so 12-1=11, which is why the Scripture says he was added to the eleven. It also means he was an Apostle as he was added to the 11; why else bother having God chose a replacement? Add to that the fulfilled prophecy in Psalm 109:8 "Let his days be few; Let another take his office." You worry me that you did not pick up on this.

Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him. -------- Matthew 10

Was Judas an Apostle? You said no, but the Bible say yes, so who is correct?

The same term “apostle” is used to describe Epaphroditus. ***“But I thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, who is also your messenger ***and minister to my need;” ------ Philippians 2:25

In general there are the “Apostles” usually termed by the phrase “apostle of Jesus Christ” and then you have all kinds of others that are referred to as more general “apostles” AKA “messengers”.

But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out —Here Barnabas is referred to as an apostle, but not in the context of Jesus Christ as I showed above.

and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them {to be} false; ------Rev. 2 Here Jesus warns of false “apostles”. So the term is used as specifi chosen by Christ and as general messengers.

Here you have false ones mentioned in the context of a “general messenger”. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

To be sure you are correct when you say the term apostle is used sometimes generically in scripture. The Orthodox speak of the seventy apostles sent by Jesus in Luke 10:1. But here we are using the term rather specifically. Now are we to accept Judas and Matthias as Apostles as well as Paul? That gives us fourteen Apostles. However, scripture provides a constraint on the number to only twelve. Look at the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:14:

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” [Re 21:14 RSV]

Who are these twelve Apostles? I think we can safely eliminate Judas. So that leaves us to decide between Matthias and Paul. My opinion and I want to emphasize it is only my opinion. There are Catholics who will disagree with me and are free to do so because the Catholic Church has made no formal declaration on this point. My opinion is that the term Apostle as used in Revelation 21:14 refers specifically to those men chosen by Jesus and also sent by Him. That means Judas, who was chosen by Jesus but was never sent by Jesus is not one of them. Matthias was never chosen by Jesus nor was he sent by Jesus. But Paul was chosen by Jesus as well as sent by Jesus so Paul is the twelfth Apostle. Again in Revelation 4:4 we see there are 24 elders sitting on thrones with gold crowns. These 24 elders are accepted as being the 12 Patriarchs of the OT and the 12 Apostles of the NT.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally posted by inkaneer
Not so fast there lady. First of all, who said Matthias was an Apostle? Second, do you know what Apostolic Succession means? Apostolic Succession is the line of authority from the original Apostles down the centuries to the bishops of the church. It does not mean one Apostle succeeding another. As for Matthias he was no Apostle. He was a bishop. Scripture only says he was “numbered with the eleven Apostles” [Acts 1:26]. If he was made an Apostle shouldn’t Acts 1:26 say He was numbered with the twelve Apostles? And the cumbersome phrase “…was numbered with…” Why not just say he was made an Apostle, if, indeed, he was an Apostle? Also, was Judas ever an Apostle? To be an apostle one had to be picked by God and sent. Judas was never sent. Neither was Matthias. In Acts 1:17 Peter says of Judas:

"17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.’ [Acts 1:17]

To be sure you are correct when you say the term apostle is used sometimes generically in scripture. The Orthodox speak of the seventy apostles sent by Jesus in Luke 10:1. But here we are using the term rather specifically. Now are we to accept Judas and Matthias as Apostles as well as Paul? That gives us fourteen Apostles. However, scripture provides a constraint on the number to only twelve. Look at the description of the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21:14:

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” [Re 21:14 RSV]

Who are these twelve Apostles? I think we can safely eliminate Judas. So that leaves us to decide between Matthias and Paul. My opinion and I want to emphasize it is only my opinion. There are Catholics who will disagree with me and are free to do so because the Catholic Church has made no formal declaration on this point. My opinion is that the term Apostle as used in Revelation 21:14 refers specifically to those men chosen by Jesus and also sent by Him. That means Judas, who was chosen by Jesus but was never sent by Jesus is not one of them. Matthias was never chosen by Jesus nor was he sent by Jesus. But Paul was chosen by Jesus as well as sent by Jesus so Paul is the twelfth Apostle. Again in Revelation 4:4 we see there are 24 elders sitting on thrones with gold crowns. These 24 elders are accepted as being the 12 Patriarchs of the OT and the 12 Apostles of the NT.

The Catholic Encyclopedia clearly labels Matthias as an apostle. newadvent.org/cathen/10066a.htm

 

[mpjw2]

Who said these words?

*“Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out **from thence ***till thou repay the last farthing.” (Matt 5:26)

What did He mean? What place (“prison”) do you reckon He was talking about?

What about these words:

"If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:15.

What fire is this (that will be used to save a man) ?

And again:

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” 2 Machabees 12:46.

“And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver…” Malachias 3:3.

What’s all this “loosing from sin”, “refining”, “cleansing” and “purifying” mean?

Are these like things one might have to undergo to be totally spotless before entering heaven?

fxcc you pose good questions which means you are seeing truth wbhich is good.

I will not give you an answer if it is a guess or out right lie to you.

However the one question you pose…

“It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” 2 Machabees 12:46.

“And he shall sit refining and cleansing the silver, and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and shall refine them as gold, and as silver…” Malachias 3:3.

What’s all this “loosing from sin”, “refining”, “cleansing” and “purifying” mean?

dead is referring to all of us on earth. each and every one of us are dead to sin.

That is until we confess to our Lord so we will be made pure again, until the next time we sin.

Life is a constant cleaning process.

we pray for the “dead” to see who are still breathing on earth that they may find truth and the saving grace of Jesus Christ and for the believers that their faith grows strong each and every day.

.

 

[mpjw2]

Its not about accepting our differences. There is one truth and we need to find it- our souls depend on it,after all.

Paul C …I could agree with you more. you said a ton in one sentence

there is one and only one truth when it conmes to salvation. I expressed them in #567
Here are basic truths ALL christians agree

This is a salvation thread. agree?

there is no salvation outside the church of believers in Jesus Christ. …agree?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved…
Romans 10:9

Jesus even said “I am the way, the truth, and the life. ***No one comes to the Father *** except through Me John 14:6

as a matter of fact you or anyone go to my post #567, quote it, and I challenge you to disagree with any of my “agree” questions in red.

I do not believe you will be able to honestly disagree with any of them.

I anxiously await your reply

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

I TOTALLY agree!! Well put.

thank you saved lady

Salvation is as easy as that

admit guilt
believe in Jesus christ
confess and repent

trust and have faith in Jesus and you have God’s gift of eternal life

these are not my words…they are Gods’

God bless

 

[davidv]

thank you saved lady

Salvation is as easy as that

admit guilt
believe in Jesus christ
confess and repent

trust and have faith in Jesus and you have God’s gift of eternal life

these are not my words…they are Gods’

God bless

Simply stated, but it is hardly as easy as this implies.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi fxcc…

Yes, I read your nice little tightrope illustration.

great

You mean like I should accept certain things that God dictates by sheer faith alone and not by sight

more so this and not …

because my little human intellect can figure it out?

Like if Jesus said of bread “This is my Body” and of wine “This is my Blood, given up for you,” you mean I should believe from the bottom of my heart, trusting Him, that that is indeed what they were? That I mustn’t claim that He was having a figurative play around with words, that His clear words were literally true even though I found the teaching “hard”, and couldn’t quite see “how can this man can give us His flesh to eat?”. Wow, that’d be a tightrope moment, wouldn’t it? That’d require a great deal of faith, wouldn’t it?

no it would not if in fact how you interpret scripture about His flesh to eat

Or if Jesus said “whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven” and if one of His Apostles confirmed that by saying "… confess your sins **to one another **… that you may be healed … " you mean I should go telling my sins to the Church - to another human being? Not just privately in Jesus’ ear? You mean when I sin I not only offend God, I also injure His Body the Church and therefore need to reconcile with both? How embarrassing! Fancy confessing my sins to another so that they can be “loosed on earth” and thereby “loosed in heaven”!!! Wow, that’d be a tightrope moment, wouldn’t it? What faith in Jesus’ words one would need for that kind of obedience! Is that the kind of faith you’re talking about?

nope it is not

Or like if Jesus says "… whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will **never **die… " you mean we should believe, based on Jesus’ assurace, that the saints who have gone before us, who have “lived and believed” in Jesus aren’t **actually **dead but live in Christ and are in communion with us, constituting, with us, a single, unified, living Body of Christ? Wow, that’d be another tightrope moment, wouldn’t it! I’d really be riding a tightrope on the Lord’s back with stuff like this, trusting that He knew where He was taking me, because He is God, wouldn’t I?

interesting you would say this last one.
why is it then that Catholics are not assured of their salvation?..I bold faced and underlined your words.

and yes this is the faith I am talking about.
thhe faith to answer the following question with a definite yes…

If you were to did right now, are you sure you would go to heaven?
I am , are you. that’s the faith my friend I am talking about.

those who have gone before you are either in Heaven or Hell
there is no purgatory.

instead of praying for the dead, have the faith to realize that those who depated before you who are in heaven are praying for you and cheering you on to endure the race here on earth.

Okay, I gotta run… heaps of stuff to get done. (The harvest is plentiful, but the labourers are few!)

amen to that.

God bless you for encouraging others to have faith in Jesus and His assurances. I’m sure that your faith too will grow with each passing day until one day you find yourself assenting in faith and obedience to **everything **that **God **proposes!

May the love of God, the grace of His Son, and the wisdom of His Holy Spirit descend upon you and remain with you always.

Francis

Thank you for your prayer

I receive it

God bless you too Francis

mpjw

 

[Beth_Martin]

If the Holy Spirit is indeed within you, and interpreting for you what you’re reading, (as you claim), how would it be that you could chance upon something that you would **not **understand? Please try not to answer with a question!

He is the true infallible interpreter, but He does not teach the Christian by osmosis; he leads and guides. Those that seek the greaest understanding will receive the greater understanding, but most do not seem to be interested in maturing; i do not know why that is.

I’ve made the point several times that if the Spirit is indeed at work helping individual believers infallibly understand/interpret Scripture by themselves (without the need for an authoritative earthly teacher), then someone needs to explain why there are so many different interpretations of the same Scripture emanating from the various faith groups.

Each one’s simply making up their own interpretations, using their own imperfect intellects, aren’t they? You included, right? If there are so many irreconcilable meanings of the Word of God floating about in Christianity, is it any wonder that the rest of the world does not see the Truth and cannot, indeed, believe? Who would they believe? The Catholic Church? Beth Martin? Luther or Calvin or Zwingli? Or X or Y or Zee?

Isn’t it so ironic that the very people who are most instrumental in causing the ugly and public dissensions in Christianity like to turn around and cutely remind us all, “God is not the author of confusion!”?

I hope you do understand that by the line of questioning that you may be demonstarting by Scripture that you do not have the Holy Spirit directing you; I am not saying it is so, I am only adding a word of caution for your benefit. No one said they were infallible in getting it right; only the Catholic Church makes that claim as far as i have seen. i make mistakes on the deeper and more difficult thngs, but it is the learning from your mistakes to which you gain even greater understanding.

God is not the author of confusion, but the church is infiltrated with professing Christians who are in reality non-Christians, but this is not surprising for Jesus Himself stated the many will be headed for destruction and few will be headed for heaven.

**John 16:12-15 12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear {them} now. 13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you. 15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose {it} to you. **

This is directed to the disciples as Scripture writers, but in the broader sense it applies to all Christians as we will see.

15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. — John 14 Here is is in a much broader sense because we know that upon believing the gospel of our salvation we receive the Holy Spirit. One primary task is to teach each believer through various means including His word and godly teachers and other resources.

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.--------- John 6

Here is a picture of the OT principal and applied to the NT; God has always worked in the same manner concerning the truth and how it is transmitted.

CONTINUED

 

[Beth_Martin]

Continuation of previous post

**But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. **
***But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 ***Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ. ---- 1 Corithians 2

This is perhaps the most definitive passage that tells us that it is the “Spirit of truth” which guides and leads us to the truth concerning the “things of God”, which is the knowledge and truth of Scripture. The believer has the mind of Christ and Paul is speaking to the believers in the Corinthian church.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth. -1 John 2

The anointing from the Holy One is the Holy Spirit.

We have not even begun to address the numerous passages in the OT; particularly in the Psalms which demonstrate the same teachings.

You can decide for yourself; does the Bible teach that the Holy Spirit first dwells in the believer and second, does He have the task of leading and guiding into the things pertaining to God which is the truth contained in Scriptures. I believe the little evidence I have presented in light of what more can be added is more than sufficient to show the point.

To get back to you original question; it is not difficult to understand various interpretations of the same passages. Primarily those making the claim to be Christian are not and therefore they are natural men who cannot understand the word of God and i believe it is the majority on the basis of what Scripture says. Secondly, I believe differences are influenced proportionally to the work and effort put into understanding the truth. The Holy Spirit does not work by osmosis, maybe with the exception of the Apostles for obvious reasons they were the ones assigned to get the gospel and the NT off the ground and running. He leads and guides so most do not seek but the minimim to come into the kingdom, but are not interested in really getting to know God at a very deep and personal level for a variety of reasons.

I don’t know if that help, but hopefully helps you to understand where i am coming from.

A very common one taught to the little ones is this below:

Teach me Your way, O Lord; I will walk in Your truth; Unite my heart to fear Your name. -Psalm 86:11

 

[Beth_Martin]

I think you missed the whole point, Beth.

I was hardly disputing the fact that Christ’s blood is redemptive. I was pointing out that it doesn’t serve to hide unconfessed (and therefore unforgiven) sins, which I daresay a great many of us are likely to die with! Which necessitates (unless the sins are grievous enough to condemn us to hell in any case) a process of purgation before we can enter heaven.

Martin Luther writes:

“Be a sinner and sin boldly … No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”
(Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, American Edition, Luther’s Works, vol. 48, pp. 281-82.)

St Paul writes:
“Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God.” 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Obviously one believes his (mis)deeds are so covered by the the Blood of Christ that his eternal union with the Lamb is guaranteed no matter what, whereas the other believes that the (unrepentant) sinner isn’t going anywhere, Blood or no covering Blood of Christ. That’s Catholic teaching. Just as the Blood the the Passover Lamb had to be applied to the doorposts of one’s house to protect one from the angel of death, so too the merits of the Perfect Sacrifice have to be applied to the soul of each individual believer - with the believer’s co-operation, conversion and refraining from sin. (“Go and sin no more”)

You still missed the point; He covered all sins, even the ones that went unconfessed, which are many many many; just in our everyday complaining about things we are sinning. He covered them all before the Christian was called a Christian. We confess because we have respect and admitting our mistakes gives Him glory; what better reason to confess?

 

[mpjw2]

Simply stated, but it is hardly as easy as this implies.

david, satan comes to rob kill and destroy anything he can which God wants to give you.

Salvation is as simple as I stated.

Answer this, after you make a confession, don’t you feel clean and pure and know in your heart that if you were to die at that very moment you will go to heaven?

Concern was expressed about sins on ones’ soul which may have been forgotten.

if it applies…next time you confess to God, ask Him to forgive all your sin …those you knowingly express and those which you long forgot about.

Having done so…what is there after you confess which would prevent you from entering heaven?

I can not think of anything can you?

thank you and God bless,

mpjw

 

[Beth_Martin]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Trying to create a strawman are you? The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you go back to your post #520 you said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” I then showed that Paul’s writing did not contain the beatitudes which are definitely a part of the gospel that Jesus preached. Now I am sure that Paul preached the beatitudes he just didn’t write about them. So obviously there is part of the gospel not contained in Paul’s writings.

I take it you can’t read or if you can then you have a comprehension problem. Please re-read my post which I included above. Please notice where I said:

"The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of Paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you [Beth Martin] go back to your post #520 you [Beth Martin] said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.”

So the issue thgat I was discussing with Beth Martin was what Paul WROTE not what Paul PREACHED. So when you now say Paul “PREACHED THE FULL GOSPEL”, I say, "Yeah, I know but He DIDN’T WRITE THE FULL GOSPEL. Understand now?

In addition you are apparently very confused. I never cited Acts 1:8 for anything. The rest of your post is jibberish. Apparently it was meant as a response to someone else.

He wrote the words he also preached which is the gospel.
Here is a full exposition of the gospel written by Paul
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Thereby answering the question you put to me earlier.

I’ve already shown you what sin can do to one’s relationship with God. I’m pretty certain you sin. So that verse likewise applies to you EVERYTIME you sin. Unless you’re immaculate of course which I highly doubt.

Of course He is in charge. Without His gift of Salvation we couldn’t get to Heaven. But that doesn’t mean we don’t play a part in it either. For example, everytime you pray for someone you’re cooperating with God to help others. Or do you no longer have free will since you were “saved”. As if He is forcing you to pray.
God could do it all Himself but that’s just not in His divine plan or else He’d make it rain food everyday for the hungry.

2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 - With this in mind, we constantly pray for you, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith. We pray this so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And why exactly are the ‘aready saved’ told to be sympathetic, humble, and to love? Seems it would be automatic and no need for them to even be taught this doesn’t it. After all, loving one another is the 2nd greatest Commandment of Christ and if a ‘saved’ person has to be told this as a reminder, then it sounds to me that he/she can fall away if they don’t be careful.

**1 Peter 3:8 - **Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.

And Peter would be correct!

In order for this gift of faith to be received, you have to do your part and accept it. However, at any moment you can give it back to Him by your sins as Christ tells us in that verse.

The discussion was started by you telling me that ALL of the Saints knew who Christ was.
Regardless, It would make God into an ogre to suggest He allowed you a free get out of hell card but poor Timmy down the street is going to be roasting away for all eternity just for existing. The absurdity is too much for me to even comprehend.

Ezekiel 3:20 “If the righteous turn from their righteousness and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before them, they shall die”.

You are not trusting by faith; how He works His sovereignty and yet the human is fully responsible is a mystery and iIs issue; I am sure when the fullness of understanding ocurrs at the full redemption all will say He was just. You are basically rejection the doctrine of election which cannot be escaped in the Biblical record for it is all over the NT and the OT. You are not walking by faith, but by your own understanding of what is fair and what is not.

I do not recall what you said in regards to sin and the relationship with God, but sin only hinders our walk and spiritual growth by grieving the Holy Spirit. This is why we are to daily sanctify ourselves in the Scriptures. Jesus said sanctify them in your truth; your word is truth. hopefully as one matures the pattern of godliness increases while the sin decreases and thus we become more and more conformed to His image, which is the goal.

 

[Beth_Martin]

It is true we have several lifetimes of written material. Almost 2000 years worth.

That is nothing to brag about; that is what Jesus condemned the Jewish leaders for in the aspect that the sheer amount of additional material obscured the simplicity of the gospel that saves. Very dangerous in my opinion.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Actually all necessary understanding is provided to us by the **Holy Spirit ** - working in and through His Church. So we don’t have to individually re-invent the wheel, or worse, end up with square ones that won’t get us too far at all! And that’s exactly as it should be - the Good News is readily available and tellable to even the most illiterate and unschooled of believers, not just to a bunch of perennially pontificating pundits!

On the other hand, we Catholics have to work very hard at keeping the Commandments, arguably a lot harder than those of our brethren who can talk away just about any implication of God’s Word with some self serving, manipulated interpretation of Scripture. When Christ says, “This is my Body, take and eat”, we Catholics tremble. And we eat. When He says “This is my blood. Take. Drink,” we shudder and beg mercy for our unworthiness. Then we drink. We **don’t **opt for replacement crackers and grape juice which aren’t “truly, truly” going to become the flesh and blood of the sacrificed Lamb of God, given for our partaking unto eternal life. If any Christian should read John 6 and not understand what the Lord is so repeatedly and so clearly and so emphatically saying in those passages, then truly, truly, that man’s lack of understanding (or refusal to accept in faith Christ’s “hard teachings” about the nature of His life-giving Eucharist) disqualifies him from being trusted on any scripture at all! He truly is a danger to himself and to all who he succeeds in persuading away from the source, centre and summit of authentic Christianity.

There is the problem; you work hard to keep the commandments and fail miserably because no one can keep them as God has said and those that try to do the works of the law will perish or be judged by that law. For breaking one is the same as breaking them all.

If we believe by faith that Jesus died for all of our sins and we confess with our mouth and believe in our hearts that Jesus died on our behalf and was raised so that in the promise of the resurrection though we die we also will live in and through Him; that is walking by true faith apart from the law of works.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth Martin, QuickCat and other non-Catholics on this thread:

I want to draw your attention to Matthew 16:
13 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

You see, it is very clear from this passage that Jesus founded a Chuch and he put St. Peter in charge of it.

Now you claim to be Christians but you list your religion as “none” or “no”. You claim to follow the bible, yet you simultaneously deny The Catholic church, which Jesus clearly founded. How do address this contradiction?

Further, I draw your attention to the end of Matthew’s gospel, chapter 28:
18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

You see, this is where Jesus commissioned the early church to go out to teach and administer the sacraments. Yet you deny both functions. Why would he tell them to baptize if it was not important. And why would they be told to teach the people to observe all that was commanded of them if it was unimportant. And notice how he reiterated he woudl be with the church, yet you yourselves have abandonned in. Notice that the things you hold as the true gospel: faith alone and sola scriptura are not included in the great commission. Why do you think that is?

Do you ever notice that you pay far more attention to St. Paul than to the actual Gospels? Do you know why that is? it is because of what St pete said in 2Peter 3;

13 But according to his promise we await new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, beloved, since you await these things, be eager to be found without spot or blemish before him, at peace.
15 And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,
16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

As St. Peter recognized, Paul’s writings are easily distorted, the Gospels less so.

The Bible was developed by the Catholic Church as a teaching and liturgical tool as inspired by the holy spirit. As such it perfectly fits Catholic theology. There are no descrepancies. We don’t have the awkward situations where what we calim is directly refuted by the Bible : (.i.e., Faith without works is Dead ", St. James 2: 24).

or 1Peter3:
18 For Christ also suffered for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.
19 In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,
20 who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.
21 This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.

Old argument and a srtetch and imposition on Peter, Jesus and the true church that Jesus continues to build that has yet to be revealved. Peter and the rest of the Apostles were given the special privlidge of opening the Kingdom by the promises of the New Covenant. To make that the Roman Catholic Church you must have quite an imagination in my opinion and only the Catholic buys into it. Three verse later Peter is called Satan by Jesus; so He went from the Church foundation to Satan in a matter of 3-4 verses, please give us all a break.

More than 2/3 of the NT are not the “gospels”, Matthew, Mark, Luke & John; yet they all contain the “good news”.

The great commission applies to all Christians.

Futhermore, Scripture is very clear as to who is in charge of the church and it is not Peter nor the Pope, but Christ Himself who is God and therefore is omnipresent. Your faith teaches otherwise, so stick to what you know and i’ll stick to what I know.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth, you are going to convince yourself to becoming Catholic. You’ll see.This post was very Catholic, other than the first paragraph, which is inconsistent with the rest.

You see, we Catholics agree with you on the negative effects of sin. I see you are an adherent to the Lordship theology and that you believe that people who are not obedience to Jesus aren’t really redeemed. this is true. Yet, you persist in saying that you are saved when in fact, you could become disobedient at any point in your life and become one of those you claim have a false profession of faith. In fact, no one is saved unless they persevere until death.

Let me discuss briefly with you the catholic view of salvation.

We believe that when you are baptized, you gain the necessary grace (God’s essence within us) to be saved. This was made possible through Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross. But you need to stay in the state of Grace until death to go to heaven. You fall from the state of grace through mortal sin, when you deliberately turn your back on God. God is infinitely merciful, however, and will allow you to be reconciled to him through the sacrament of reconciliation By contritely confessing your sins to a priest (who stands in for Jesus), repenting, and doing penance, we regain our lost grace. If we die in the state of grace, we will go to heaven, although we may need to spend time in purgatory to make us truly holy and therefore suitable to join God in heaven.

We believe that the sacraments are essential to salvation. They are visible signs of our intentions. While it is absolutely true that God needs no visible sign, it is equally true that if we are not willing to make a visible sign of our intentions, then we are not worthy of him.

Ultimately, every person choses to be with God in heaven or to turn from God and spend eternity in hell. These choices are demonstrated by our actions, which are tangible, and not our words, which are empty without actions to back them.

The holy Spirit is the power of God working in the life of the believer and it is by His power that allows the Christian to persevere to the end, not by the mans strength and will. We would fail everyday and everytime and never persevere to the end. It is only by the power of God. I can sure hinder Him from moving along, but if i hinder Himm too much He will in no uncertain terms let me know to get me back to that narrow path i jsut strayed from.

The Christian energized by the Holy Spirit only wants to please and glorify god; a Christian can’t help themselves but to desire that; after all He is a new creation in Christ and the olf fart has passed away and thank god for that who would want to resurrect that old life? A non-Christian playing church.

You can’t make that choice unless God removes the blinders and one the choice is made in earnest you can never turn away from the power of God; you are not strong enough.

 

[Beth_Martin]

I truly enjoyed this! You sure you’re not a closet Catholic? And a traditional one at that?

The only bit I don’t agree with is that any unconfessed sin or sin confessed with anything less than perfect contrition (especially outside of the sacrament of Reconciliation) is “covered” by Christ’s atoning sacrifice, in the sense that it’s automatically wiped away. It is Christ Himself who cautions us to “Go and sin no more”, meaning that our “healing”, received from confessing Him as Lord and Saviour, can be lost. *“I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” *(1 Corinthians 9:27)

Meaning that there is no convenient, all-encompassing blanket of Christ’s Blood under which a single “untreated” sin can be hid.

You’re right. The downplaying of sin and its consequences is so deadly dangerous. And yet, it has to be asked, what contribution has the blithe assurance of “once saved, always saved” made to that? If I’m already **guaranteed **salvation and heaven, why should I worry about sinning or bother to pursue holiness? Isn’t this precisely the rationale which prompted Luther to write:

“Be a sinner and sin boldly … No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Martin Luther - Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521, American Edition, Luther’s Works, vol. 48, pp. 281-82.

The Christian cannot help themselves but to persue holiness that is what the new nature of the Christian is. Why pray; you can’t change what God has purposed already, but we are told to and we get to participate when He answers prayers and thus the answered prayer displays His glory which you get to see because you prayed for such things that He already intended on doing. It is all for His glory all of it. The Christians greatest desire to to be obedient to the Lord, that is what it means to treat Him as Lord; the Christian is enslaved to Christ and gladly so for He is a benevolent King.

You can never lose what God di not give to you; if you think you have gained favor by salvation and then believe you were able to give it back or lost it, then believe that.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Beth …

I inserted the scripture you made reference to …Good point

Old argument and a srtetch and imposition on Peter, Jesus and the true church that Jesus continues to build that has yet to be revealved. Peter and the rest of the Apostles were given the special privlidge of opening the Kingdom by the promises of the New Covenant. To make that the Roman Catholic Church you must have quite an imagination in my opinion and only the Catholic buys into it. Three verse later Peter is called Satan by Jesus;

22 Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, “Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!”
23 But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”