Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[fms]

Salvation Outside the Church

 

[chosen_people]

What happens to that individual when his/her deeds are such that they do not bring Divine Presence upon himself/herself?

What happens to the one who is not righteous?

The gentile only has to follow the 7 Noahide commandments.

 

[fms]

My question was what happens to them then if they don’t?

 

[Roy5]

Chosen People

There are quotations in Christianity and in Judaism that suggest that people of many faiths can enter the kingdom. Jesus, for example, used a Samaritan as the symbol of the good man, and Samaritans were despised by the Jews because they had intermarried and had a faith that diverged from traditional Judaism.

 I was interested in that you chose ' Chosen People' as your identification. It doesn't need to be said because - obviously - there are wonderful Jews. But to suggest that Judaism is more humane than Christianity is questionable. Read the stories of Joshua and David and the way in which they slaughtered innocent civilians, whole tribes, so as to seize their land - a story of one atrocity after another. 

 And look at the Holy Land today. I have been there four times and know first-hand of the continual mistreatment of the Palestinians. This is not to defend terrorism, of course, but why do Jews deliberately keep building illegal settlements in Palestinian land? It's an outrage that supplies Al Qaida with more and more recruits. In other words, the action of our 'ally' works to benefit our enemy and against our efforts to destroy Muslim terrorism. What kind of ally is this?

 America needs to be genuinely pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, and then we may have peace. Unfortunately, the Israel Lobby is very powerful, has amassed millions of Christian allies in this country, and frightens the media, Congress and the President. It's sad. And it also works against Israeli security in the long run. There will be no peace and no Israeli security until there is justice for the Palestinians.

 God bless Christians, Jews, people of every faith, color and country. A blessed Easter to all who are Christians, and I hope Jews have been having a blessed Passover season.

 

[Abu]

A blessed Easter to all and progress in faith and reason.

In no sense was Jesus of Nazareth “outrageous”, when He proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20). Yet many who are misled think that His Church’s claim is outrageous! We have already seen that Christ built His Church on Peter with primacy and infallibility (Post #151).

The dogma on the exercise of papal infallibility is from Vatican I in Pastor Aeternus, Chap 4, #9:
“9. Therefore, faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian faith, to the glory of God our saviour, for the exaltation of the Catholic religion and for the salvation of the Christian people, with the approval of the Sacred Council, we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that when the Roman Pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA, that is, when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, he possesses, by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals. Therefore, such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the Church, irreformable.
"So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.”

So The Pope’s ‘ex cathedra’ definitions may be either of revealed dogma, to be believed with divine faith, or of other truths necessary for guarding and expounding revealed truth. Vatican Council II and the post-conciliar Magisterium have explicitly affirmed that both ecclesial and papal infallibility extend to the secondary doctrinal truths necessary for guarding and expounding revelation. Thus *Humanae Vitae *(Encyclical) and *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *(Apostolic Epistle) contain infallible definitions, to remove all doubt.

The CCC #88 (1997) clearly combines exactly with Pope John Paul’s Motu Proprio (= on his own authority) Apostolic Letter Ad Tuendam Fidem, 1998, which requires the assent of divine and Catholic faith to believe (credenda sunt) dogmas (a category one truth) (Canon #750.1); and a category 2 truth requires the assent of ecclesial faith, as a secondary truth, “proposed definitively” (definitive proponuntur) to be “firmly embraced and held” (now Canon 750.2). In fact, the 1983 revision of Canon Law had replaced in #749.3 “dogmatically declared or defined” with “infallibly defined”, thus NOT expressing a limitation of infallibility to dogmas
EWTN’s Library is at: ewtn.com/vlibrary/search.asp

This clarifies that the mishmash of views on “Dogmas” has been ill-informed as Dogmas have been promulgated usually by Ecumenical Councils approved by a Pope.

**Answer by David Gregson of EWTN on Nov-22-2002: **
“You are correct in stating that the Pope exercises his charism of infallibility not only in dogmatic definitions issued, ex cathedra, as divinely revealed (of which there have been only two), but also in doctrines definitively proposed by him, also ex cathedra, which would include canonizations (that they are in fact Saints, enjoying the Beatific Vision in heaven), moral teachings (such as contained in Humanae vitae), and other doctrines he has taught as necessarily connected with truths divinely revealed, such as that priestly ordination is reserved to men. Further details on levels of certainty with which the teachings of the Magisterium (either the Pope alone, or in company with his Bishops) may be found in Summary of Categories of Belief.”

 

[Abu]

Chosen people
The universal love and compassion of God is a tenet of Judaism not of Catholicism. Most of the people in the world are not Christians. Despite this Christians teach “He who believes in the son has everlasting life. But he who does not believe in the son shall not see life, but shall suffer the everlasting wrath of God” (John 3:36) and “He who does not abide in me is thrown away like a withered branch. Such withered branches are gathered together, cast into the fire and burned” (John 15:6).

As you must know by now, Christ’s Church teaches that ALL may be saved, except those who willfully and knowingly reject Christ, by rejecting what they know to be true. “The universal; love and compassion of God is a tenet of Judaism not of Catholicism” is thus false as far as Catholicism goes, as Christ’s Church teaches just that – mercy and justice.

Since the NT was given to us by Christ’s Church it is what She teaches on the NT that matters. As you don’t have the Tradition of the Fathers and Doctors of Christ’s Catholic Church from the beginning, how can you know unless you are shown? As the eunuch said to Phillip: “How can I know unless some man shows me?” (Acts 8:31). Jesus did not leave us orphans; He gave us His Church and She gave us the Bible.

We have from Christ: “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and there will be one fold and one shepherd." (Jn 10:16).

 

[EDWARDJL]

The bottom line to all this is that if you believe in Jesus Christ and live for him in obedience and faith and endure to the end, you will be saved. Whether the Catholic church is the one true church, whether you acknowledge this or not, it does not matter as far as salvation is concerned.

The unforgiveable sin, is to reject Christ, bottom line. The message of salvation is a simple and clear message. St. Paul mentions this again and again in the book of Romans. It is a free gift from God. We do not earn or merit it. However, if we are truly his followers, the fruit of his holy spirit in us will bear fruit through good deeds and obedience.

I wish everyone a happy blessed Easter where we can thank God for his risen Son, our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[Bengoshi]

You guys will stoop to the very lowest level to denigrate the Catholic Church and then you call yourself christians! YOU LIE!!! You added “ex cathedra”. WHY? Did you think that “ex cathedra” means infallible? Well, it doesn’t.QUOTE]

What are you saying?! We all know that when a pope issues or declares something “ex cathedra” it means that it is claiming infallibility! I am not saying that all the encyclicals that Redbert quoted are ex cathedra for I would have to chack on that one as well, but the purpose of declaring something as ex cathedra gives it the mark of infallibility. It means exactly that, that the pope is speaking from the chair of Peter, the supposed “first pope” of the Catholic Church.

 

[Bengoshi]

I’ve never really understood the authority of any protestant denomination or any catholic church to decide that only it’s members were truly saved. It’s my understanding that Jesus does the saving not the clergy or man-made creed. I don’t recall anywhere in the scriptures any stipulation that in order to be saved you must belong to this church or that church.

Protestants do not claim that one has to be a member of a particular denomination or congregation to be saved. We however say that we are saved when we confess with our mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) because it is by grace that we are saved, through faith–and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of god–not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph. 2:8-9)

 

[Abu]

Bengoshi
Protestants do not claim that one has to be a member of a particular denomination or congregation to be saved. We however say that we are saved when we confess with our mouth that “Jesus is Lord” and believe in our heart that God raised Him from the dead (Rom. 10:9) because it is by grace that we are saved, through faith–and this not from ourselves, it is the gift of god–not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph. 2:8-9)

BTW, No Pope “issues or declares” anything “ex cathedra” by itself.
For infallibility to be exercised the Pope must teach
(a) ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter), that is as Shepherd and Teacher of all Christians,
(b) speaking with Peter’s apostolic authority to the whole Church,
(c) defining a doctrine of faith and morals.

No one is “saved” until they have responded to the redemption of Jesus by cooperating with Him to supply what was lacking in His afflictions – when we walk in good works (Eph 2:10). As James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

 

[Bengoshi]

Words have meanings that are independent of interpretations. Your attitude reminds me of the famous quote from Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland “When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less.” That attitude has never been convincing.

What you say the church says Unam Sanctam means now is not what it was taken to mean then. Meanings of “infallible” statements should not be subject to change.

I concur!

 

[KyivAndrew]

From the late Avery Cardinal Dulles on “Who Can Be Saved” in the journal “First Things”, a man who was regarded by many as one of the prime intellects in the Curia. He writes:

"The Second Vatican Council, in its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church and its Decree on Ecumenism, made some significant departures from the teaching of Pius XII. It avoided the term member and said nothing of an unconscious desire for incorporation in the Church. It taught that the Catholic Church was the all-embracing organ of salvation and was equipped with the fullness of means of salvation. Other Christian churches and communities possessed certain elements of sanctification and truth that were, however, derived from the one Church of Christ that subsists in the Catholic Church today. For this reason, God could use them as instruments of salvation. God had, however, made the Catholic Church necessary for salvation, and all who were aware of this had a serious obligation to enter the Church in order to be saved. God uses the Catholic Church not only for the redemption of her own members but also as an instrument for the redemption of all. Her witness and prayers, together with the eucharistic sacrifice, have an efficacy that goes out to the whole world.

In several important texts, Vatican II took up the question of the salvation of non-Christians. Although they were related to the Church in various ways, they were not incorporated in her. God’s universal salvific will, it taught, means that he gives non-Christians, including even atheists, sufficient help to be saved. Whoever sincerely seeks God and, with his grace, follows the dictates of conscience is on the path to salvation. The Holy Spirit, in a manner known only to God, makes it possible for each and every person to be associated with the Paschal mystery. “God, in ways known to himself, can lead those inculpably ignorant of the gospel to that faith without which it is impossible to please him.” The council did not indicate whether it is necessary for salvation to come to explicit Christian faith before death, but the texts give the impression that implicit faith may suffice.

Who, then, can be saved? Catholics can be saved if they believe the Word of God as taught by the Church and if they obey the commandments. Other Christians can be saved if they submit their lives to Christ and join the community where they think he wills to be found. Jews can be saved if they look forward in hope to the Messiah and try to ascertain whether God’s promise has been fulfilled. Adherents of other religions can be saved if, with the help of grace, they sincerely seek God and strive to do his will. Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice. God’s saving grace, channeled through Christ the one Mediator, leaves no one unassisted. But that same grace brings obligations to all who receive it. They must not receive the grace of God in vain. Much will be demanded of those to whom much is given.

I am just posting here excerpts from the Cardinal’s article and not commenting personally but suggest that others interested read the entire article because it is a complex subject and quoting only certain paragraphs may leave the context out. Read here:

firstthings.com/article/2008/02/001-who-can-be-saved-8

 

[DorianGregorian]

However Ecumenical Councils are Dogmatic and cannot be changed.

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, Ex Cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice."

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, Ex Cathedra:
“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, Ex Cathedra:
“Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, Ex Cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”

Also let’s not forget the Creed of St. Athanasius
This is the Catholic Faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

Remember also what the first Pope (St. Peter) said:
“… the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ… Nor is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name, under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12).

 

[Abu]

Dorian Gregorian
However Ecumenical Councils are Dogmatic and cannot be changed.

When they issue dogmas they have done so with a warning as in Vatican I on papal infallibility:
“So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.”

It does nothing for truth to uncomprehendingly repeat and imply that the Ecumenical Councils of Trent and Vatican II were in error when they taught as in the Council of Trent, 1545-1563, pictured by some dissenters as triumphant and absolutist, and defined the dogma of baptism by desire as well as in what Vatican II taught: “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it.”

She has always regarded the baptism of non-Catholics as valid – and a valid baptism means you are, in some sense, in union with Christ through His Church. Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95) affirmed that “those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God."

The Latin word extra can mean either “without” or “outside.” The correct interpretation and sense of the maxim is that we cannot be saved without the Church. In a positive sense, this theological principle “means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (CCC 846).
Encyclopedia of Catholic Doctrine, OSV].

KyivAndrew
Fr Avery Dulles claimed that “the ordinary Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff had fallen into error,” in addressing the Catholic Theological Society of America in 1976, also claiming this gem: “Indirectly…the Council worked powerfully to undermine the authoritarian theory and to legitimate dissent in the Church…Vatican II quietly reversed earlier positions…on a number of important issues.” (CTSA Proceedings, 1976, p240-241). Fr Dulles was able to renew himself and ceased to promote such error and dissent.

Yet the Dulles article you give is lacking also in historical perspective, as we see above.

Since doctrine develops, we have a clearer, non-contradictory understanding, since Pope Clement I, of how non-Catholics and pagans may be saved through Christ’s Church instituted by Him precisely for our salvation.

 

[Bengoshi]

You have therefore unreasonably denied the clear affirmation of Pope Clement (circa A.D… 95): “Those who repented for their sins, appeased God in praying and received salvation, even though they were aliens to God.”

You have unreasonably denied the fact that the Church has condemned the interpretation you hold (cf. Denzinger-Schönmetzer, 3870-3873).

You have unreasonably denied the meaning of the Latin as understood by Christ’s Church: that we cannot be saved without His Church.

The greater problem is that therefore this is a denial of Jesus the Christ. Why would you want to deny Christ?

That is not what RedBert means. He is not taking any side of the isue at all. We are just demonstrating here that papal/magisterial teachings of the Roman Church, which are supposedly infallible, contradict themselves. It just proves that there is no such thing a papal infallibility. I guess that is what RedBert is demonstrating here and not to prove to veracity of either of the positions.

 

[Bengoshi]

How many protestants out there do not even give the Church a chance because certain teachings wouldn’t fit their lifestyle. ( Birth Control, Confession to a Priest, Abortion, Divorce etc.) The sin of pride and pleasure I’m sure plays a large part in protestants remaining where they are. I also wonder if they make a perfect act of contrition with every repentance. I have some serious doubts that many do since a few things have to be present. Catholic have a better chance of forgiveness in the Sacrament of Confession than those who remain outside, even the ones who remain in complete ignorance.

Can we just please lay off the ad hominem arguments? It really won’t help at all. Our country is the only “Christian” (Catholic actually) nation in Asia and yet we are the second most corrupt as well. Would you consider this as an argument against the Roman Catholic Church? Of course not, because they just don’t know how to truly practice their nominal faith. Same thing with the so-called “Protestant lifestyle” you are referring to. We abhor abortion! Just look at the ACLJ, they are fighting for our Christian morals against the ACLU among others. Catholics also divorce, have abortions, and practice birth control, but does that mean it is allowed by the Church? Hell no! Same thing with Protestants.

 

[fms]

The Prayers of the General Intercessions on Good Friday of the Lord’s Passion:

**VI. For the Jewish people **

Cel: Let us pray for the Jewish people, the first to hear the word of God, that they may continue to grow in the love of his name and in faithfulness to his covenant.

Silent prayer. Then the priest says:

Almighty and eternal God, long ago you gave your promise to Abraham and his posterity. Listen to your Church as we pray that the people you first made your own may arrive at the fullness of redemption. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.

**VII. For those who do not believe in Christ **

Cel: Let us pray for those who do not believe in Christ, that the light of the Holy Spirit may show them the way to salvation.
.
Silent prayer. Then the priest says:

Almighty and eternal God, enable those who do not acknowledge Christ to find the truth as they walk before you in sincerity of heart. Help us to grow in love for one another, to grasp more fully the mystery of your godhead, and to become more perfect witnesses of your love in the sight of men. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

All: Amen.

**VIII. For those who do not believe in God **

Cel: Let us pray for those who do not believe in God, that they may find him by sincerely following all that is right.

Silent prayer. Then the priest says:

Almighty and eternal God, you created mankind so that all might long to find you and have peace when you are found. Grant that, in spite of the hurtful things that stand in their way, they may all recognize in the lives of Christians the tokens of your love and mercy, and gladly acknowledge you as the one true God and Father of us all. We ask this through Christ our Lord.

 

[chosen_people]

Chosen People

There are quotations in Christianity and in Judaism that suggest that people of many faiths can enter the kingdom. Jesus, for example, used a Samaritan as the symbol of the good man, and Samaritans were despised by the Jews because they had intermarried and had a faith that diverged from traditional Judaism.

 I was interested in that you chose ' Chosen People' as your identification. It doesn't need to be said because - obviously - there are wonderful Jews. But to suggest that Judaism is more humane than Christianity is questionable. Read the stories of Joshua and David and the way in which they slaughtered innocent civilians, whole tribes, so as to seize their land - a story of one atrocity after another. 

 And look at the Holy Land today. I have been there four times and know first-hand of the continual mistreatment of the Palestinians. This is not to defend terrorism, of course, but why do Jews deliberately keep building illegal settlements in Palestinian land? It's an outrage that supplies Al Qaida with more and more recruits. In other words, the action of our 'ally' works to benefit our enemy and against our efforts to destroy Muslim terrorism. What kind of ally is this?

 America needs to be genuinely pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, and then we may have peace. Unfortunately, the Israel Lobby is very powerful, has amassed millions of Christian allies in this country, and frightens the media, Congress and the President. It's sad. And it also works against Israeli security in the long run. There will be no peace and no Israeli security until there is justice for the Palestinians.

 God bless Christians, Jews, people of every faith, color and country. A blessed Easter to all who are Christians, and I hope Jews have been having a blessed Passover season.

Here’s an article from the Washington Times about this Easter in Jewish Jerusalem

washingtontimes.com/news/2010/apr/02/the-protection-of-easter-in-jewish-jerusalem/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_world-news

I have never suggested that Judaism is more humane than Christianity nor have I ever had the temerity to question God’s actions.

If Christianity has started teaching that “salvation” (getting to heaven) is not solely through faith in Jesus as the Messiah ben David then apparently I am under an extreme misconception about Christian beliefs. If you could quote for me the various places in the Torah and Prophets in the Tanach where it says or implies the concept of faith in Messiah ben David for personal salvation or any redemptive value, such as the parts where it says the Messiah ben David is coming to “die for our sins”, or to “save” us or to do any of the things which Christians attribute to Jesus, it would be very helpful to our discussion.

My reply to your comments on the “mistreatment and lack of justice” by Israel to others is in the attached PDF file

 

[Saved_Lady]

Yes God has answers. However, more often than not, He delivers them through men (and women).

True. But the Bible is God’s word and He delivers answers through His word more often than not.

 

[golliju]

I was a Baptist, but have been attending a Catholic Church for the past 3 years. I really felt like the Catholic Church might be the true Church, but I am hopelessly hung up on the “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” dogma, and haven’t been able to figure it out.

As I understand it, “No Salvation Outside CC” is a dogma. That means that once it is set in place, it can’t be changed, right? As I read old “classic” Catholic literature (Alphonsus Ligouri, Theresa of Avila, Augustine, etc), I see a literal “no nonsense” understanding of “No Salvation Outside CC”. I have many pages of quotes and Church writings that say so. This teaching began (as far as I can tell) even before the year 100, and had been taught consistently up until about the last 50 years or so.

Okay, here’s the confusing part. In the modern Catholic Church, this isn’t taught anymore. In fact, the opposite it now taught. I talked to “my priest” and asked him about it, and he said that the CC realized that had been too harsh, and had changed it’s mind - they are more “merciful” since Vatican II. I didn’t think that dogma could be changed like that, can it?

I’m very confused about the whole dogma thing. Can dogma change? Can ex-cathedra dogma be wrong? Is my priest wrong? Is this just something that I’m not supposed to understand?

Also, am I the only Catholic that is hopelessly confused about this topic? I’ve looked for information about this, and all I can find is sedevacantist stuff, which has it’s own set of big problems. It seems everyone else I talk to (several other priests included) is satisfied with the explanation that 1900 years of beliefs have changed in the last 50 years. Am I the only one who is frustrated with this?

I can post some of the saints’ and Popes’ quotes if requested, but I didn’t want to make this post go unnecessarily long.

Can anyone help me, please?

Dear Xbaptist,

I have no idea what a dogma is supposed to be ( considering that I am not RC). From my understanding, salvation come as a gift from God. Our duty is to do His will and not be too concerned with who will or won’t be saved. Only God knows who will be, so don’t sprain your brain on that. It will all be revealed in God’s time. If the definition of Catholic Church was defined by God and not man, Would that not clarify things for all worshippers of God?

Please Don’t crucify me for my personal views,
Golliju.