Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[paul_c]

Very interesting since the Bible says in Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Funny isn’t it that Peter doesn’t say there is no other Church, or Pope, or Mary, or himself. Peter confesses that the only way to Heaven is through Christ, not the church.

Onevoice, you misunderstand Catholic teaching. Christ established the Church on earth to administer his sacraments and teach his gospel. HE set it up to lead all men to himself. When you read the Bible, you are accessing a teaching tool established by the Catholic church, whether you recognize it or not.

As a matter of fact if you read Peters profession in Acts 4 it will disprove your misinterpretation that Christ built his church on Peter. You will rather see the truth that Christ built his church on the statement that he is the “Christ the Son of the living God”. It also amazes me that Catholics can take one chapter and verse like Matthew 16:16 to build an entire belief system. Pay particular attention to how Christ ended this topic of discussion. Matthew 16:20 “Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.”

You are creating a false dichotomy. There is no inconsistency between salvation being through Jesus Christ and salvation being through the Catholic church. Jesus established the Catholic Church to teach that salvation is through Jesus. Read matthew 16: 16-19 and Matthew 28 : 16-18.

Also It never ceases to amaze me me that Catholics, who are supposed to follow the ten commandments break so many of them within their own church system. Commandment 1. (“I am the LORD thy God… Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”)

Yet you worship the Pope, Mary, Peter, and about 100 false gods that you call saints.

you have been misinformed. We worship only God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. The Pope is our spiritual leader, but we do not worship him any more than you worship your local minister. We venerate Mary and the Saints, trying to follow their examples. But we do not worship them…

Commandment 2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,”

If you think I am lying look around your church the next time you walk in the door of your temple. Count how may images you see of those mentioned above and how many times one of those names are mentioned in your worship service.

Again, you have been misinformed. We do not worship any of the images you see in a Catholic Church, whether it be a stained glass window, a statue or a Crucifix. These are visual aids to help us remember the acts of Jesus, Mary or the Saints. They were developed as teaching aids in the period when most were illiterate. The commandment you are referencing was against putting something in the place of God, and could equally be applied to Money. Devout Catholics put nothing before God.

Lastly commandment 4. Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Which is the worst of all commandments that Catholics break at every communion table. How you may ask?
The Bible says that Jesus died once for all yet you put him to death over and over again by supposedly drinking his blood and eating his body.

Again, One Voice, you have been misinformed. Jesus did Die once for all. That sacrifice is always before us. Remember, Jesus lives outside of Time. We do not sacrifice him over and over. We simply live in that moment of his once for all sacrifice and we follow his words in John 6. We eat his body and drink his blood in order to have eternal life with him. If you do not, Jesus said there would be no life within you.

 

[paul_c]

I understand how the Catholic think the Catholic church is the body of Christ.The body of Christ is made up of those who have salvation through Christ.This is the age old argument that many Catholic and many Protestant have never been able to agree on.
And I doubt you and I will solve this disagreement on just who are those who make up the body of Christ.Is it the Catholics because they believe their church is Christ’s body?
The people who have salvation are those who have Jesus as their Lord and Savior.Those who love the Lord and keep his commandments are those who make up the body of Christ.
As far as the Vatican goes,that is for the Catholic.
Pope St.Clement was right but I don’t need to receive confirmation from a man to know that salvation is for all who come to Christ.We can find that truth in God’s word.
Catholic and Protestant do have one thing they can agree on and that being the only way to receiving salvation(Eternal life) is through Jesus Christ the son and Jesus is the only way to the Father(that is the Father God).We also can agree that the work on the cross was enough to guarantee our salvation,which is a gift,and can not be earned or kept by works but kept through the Grace of God.
If one believes that God is a respecter of persons who believe works give them brownie points into the kingdom well these folks better wake up because they have not learned a thing about God or his Son.
If the Catholic and the Protestant could come to an agreement on Salvation,works and what it is constitutes as the body of Christ then we could move on to something else the Catholic and Protestant don’t exactly agree on either and that be praying to those of us(Meaning a mere man) that have died and went on to be with the Lord.I believe the Catholics have declared such as saints and the Protestant don’t see this as such.But that’s for another topic or disagreement

Louemma,
St. Paul , under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, describes the Church as the Body of Christ in his epistles. At sometime in the past, you or one of your ancestors decided to leave the Body of Christ because you or they thought they knew a better way to get to God. You or they then took it upon yourselves to redefine the Body of Christ to include people like you who made a similar choice to leave the Church, which is the real Body of Christ. You simply do not have the authority to change God’s definition.

Secondly, you misunderstand Scripture and Catholic Teaching on doing works of love. You are right that you can’t work your way to heaven. But you are wrong if you think that works are unimportant to salvation. Love is required for salvation. This is the entire basis of scripture. Jesus said that the entire old testament can be summarized by th egreat commandment," Love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. And he gave the disciples a new commandment," Love each other as I have loved you. . He said we would be judged on our actions (Matthew 25) and that we needed to follow the commandments to gain eternal life (Matthew 19). Love in an action word. In the simplest terms, it is doing things for others without expecting anything in return. It is the greatest of the theological virtues (1Corinthians 13). And Faith without works are Dead, as famously stated by St james in the second chapter of his epistle. Works of love complete and demonstrate faith. Faith without works is empty.

 

[Louemma]

Louemma,
St. Paul , under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, describes the Church as the Body of Christ in his epistles. At sometime in the past, you or one of your ancestors decided to leave the Body of Christ because you or they thought they knew a better way to get to God. You or they then took it upon yourselves to redefine the Body of Christ to include people like you who made a similar choice to leave the Church, which is the real Body of Christ. You simply do not have the authority to change God’s definition.

Secondly, you misunderstand Scripture and Catholic Teaching on doing works of love. You are right that you can’t work your way to heaven. But you are wrong if you think that works are unimportant to salvation. Love is required for salvation. This is the entire basis of scripture. Jesus said that the entire old testament can be summarized by th egreat commandment," Love God with all your heart, all your mind, and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself. And he gave the disciples a new commandment," Love each other as I have loved you. . He said we would be judged on our actions (Matthew 25) and that we needed to follow the commandments to gain eternal life (Matthew 19). Love in an action word. In the simplest terms, it is doing things for others without expecting anything in return. It is the greatest of the theological virtues (1Corinthians 13). And Faith without works are Dead, as famously stated by St james in the second chapter of his epistle. Works of love complete and demonstrate faith. Faith without works is empty.

I don’t look at Love as being a work but if you are counting the Fruits of the Spirit as works then pour the works on me Lord.
Thank You for this post and I do have a certain amount of respect for the true Catholics or else I would not enjoy your forums.Also you mention my ancestors and I doubt MY ancestors had even heard of the Catholic church until the 1600s or there about.

 

[Abu]

Louemma
Pope St.Clement was right
We also can agree that the work on the cross was enough to guarantee our salvation, which is a gift, and can not be earned or kept by works but kept through the Grace of God.

All papal dogma and defined doctrine of Christ’s Church is infallible, and yes, Pope St Clement is right. However, Christ does not teach through His Church that His Crucifixion “was enough to guarantee our salvation.” You need to pay heed to His teaching through His Church’s Scriptures.

Grace is the free gift of God which enables us to have faith and without good works that faith is dead. Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes. Catholics also have Christ’s seven sacraments, including the Holy Eucharist, and Sacred Tradition.

So the second half is as James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

 

[Louemma]

All papal dogma and defined doctrine of Christ’s Church is infallible, and yes, Pope St Clement is right. However, Christ does not teach through His Church that His Crucifixion “was enough to guarantee our salvation.” You need to pay heed to His teaching through His Church’s Scriptures.

Grace is the free gift of God which enables us to have faith and without good works that faith is dead. Jesus redeemed us (opened Heaven), we have to play our part. If anyone was to be saved your way it would have been Paul! But he clearly showed the error of that: “But I chastise my body, and bring it into subjection lest perhaps, when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway.” (1Cor 9:27). And again: “Wherefore he who thinks that he stands, let him take heed lest he fall.” (1 Cor 10:12). Yet again, “And we exhort you not to receive the grace of God in vain.” (2 Cor 6:1).

St Paul is very clear: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes. Catholics also have Christ’s seven sacraments, including the Holy Eucharist, and Sacred Tradition.

So the second half is as James teaches: “Faith without works is dead.” (See Jam 2:14-26).

The Fruits of the Spirit
Galatians 5:22–23 (NIV)
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Now we know that every child of God is promised the Holy Spirit and if we receive the fruit of the Spirit then it would be as the scripture states"You know them by their fruits"

Matthew 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.​

Matthew 12:33 "Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.​

Luke 6:44 "For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.​

James 3:12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

God’s children should always strive to do the good works that comes from having a heart that the fruit has indwelled.In fact a person will desire to do those things because after all we are to be Christ minded.

Philippians 2:5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Faith without works is dead.But I fear the works you speak of are works that Catholics believe help to hold on to their eternal life,somehow coming to a belief that somehow a man can ensure his own salvation by his works.So his works are not something he wants to do because the desire has been placed in him but rather the works are done out of fear of losing their salvation.
I believe the works for a Catholic are not the same as I would imagine for a Protestant.Are there certain works that a Catholic must do to ensure that they indeed have eternal life?

 

[usemelord]

I’m chiming in here a bit late after wasting my time watching my favorite NBA team lose an embarrassing game. Anyway, I see that several posters have corrected Onevoice on the error of his/her ways. Before I add my two cents worth, allow me to make an observation that I suspect few know about. When Christ said on more than one occasion to “tell no man,” it actually meant quite the opposite. Let me explain. I attend an ecumenical Bible study led by one of the most knowledgeable Bible scholars I’ve ever met. He is Catholic, but Christians of all denominations attend his classes. Part of his training included living with Rabbis for a couple years in Jerusalem. He explains that you must interpret certain sayings in light of the culture of the Middle East at Christ’s time. That is to say, when someone said to “tell no one,” it really meant, “Psst!! Go tell EVERYONE.” This is only one reason why the Bible should be read literarily, not literally. There is a distinct difference. Once I, too, was as misled and confused as Onevoice concerning Catholic practices. I was Baptist most of my life and believed some of the things expressed by Onevoice in his earlier post until I decided to objectively look into such misguided notions as Mary worship, etc. Be very clear about one thing: I was ignorant of the truth, not stupid. Ignorance simply implies lack of knowledge. One thing Catholics do not practice is Mary worship, or worship of “false gods” which was Onevoice’s unfortunate description of saints. What Catholics DO is venerate Mary, and the saints. These are people who gave their very lives for the sake of the Church and building the Kingdom of God. We want to emulate them. So, please Onevoice do not confuse veneration with worship. And, as some others have correctly pointed out, Christ died ONCE only. The liturgy at Mass is quite plainly a RE-presentation of the Last Supper. Thank God that I let go of my foolish prejudices five years ago when I entered the Catholic Church at Easter Vigil, 2005. Life is never been the same thanks to the Eucharist and Christ’s Scriptural promise that He lives in me, and I in Him. I know from being a former Baptist that you cannot improve on that. My advice to Onevoice would be to pick up a copy of Patrick Madrid’s “Surprised by Truth” which, I think, comes in three volumes telling fascinating conversion stories of former atheists, Jews, and non-Catholic Christians. You will learn a lot from the heartfelt stories of others.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi I am enjoying the discussion here because it is full of information on Church history, but you seem to be taking over the thread with an effort to convert. Your posts seem to be an effort to further an evangelical agenda. I just want to point out that Forum Rules suggest that this is not the place for you to be trying to convert Catholics to your way of thinking, because it is really disrespectful to those Catholics here. I’m just saying…

If the rest of you Wise Ones are actually enjoying trying to explain it to Bengoshi, I apologize for saying anything.

Isn’t this actually the reason and purpose of discussion/debate, to try to sway the other to your way of thinking? If we can’t do that here, then we might as well remove the entire forum.

 

[Abu]

Louemma
In fact a person will desire to do those things because after all we are to be Christ minded.
I fear the works you speak of are works that Catholics believe help to hold on to their eternal life, somehow coming to a belief that somehow a man can ensure his own salvation by his works. Are there certain works that a Catholic must do to ensure that they indeed have eternal life?

I’m happy that you agree that faith needs works. Your “fear” that “Catholics” or anyone can ensure their salvation by “works alone” is not part of the teaching of Christ’s Church. His Church teaches, and emphasises in Her Sacred Scriptures that to live as Christ wants we must love and obey:
“Love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Rom 13:10). The new commandment is: “Love one another as I have loved you.” (Jn 13: 34-35). If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21).
“He became the source of salvation to all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9). “It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).
When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Two warnings: “Unless one be born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:5). To the Galatians (3:7): For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Secondly, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.” (Jn 6:53).
Thus, from the first, the brethren “remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.” (Acts 2:42). So, as Jesus commanded, His Church has the Eucharist (Holy Mass), His seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of the pope, Her Tradition and Her Sacred Scriptures.

 

[Sherry_G]

Isn’t this actually the reason and purpose of discussion/debate, to try to sway the other to your way of thinking? If we can’t do that here, then we might as well remove the entire forum.

Oh! That is your thinking? I never realized that was why you continue to bring up new points rather than seriously consider what devout and learned Catholics are trying to explain to you for your edification.

 

[inkaneer]

Very interesting since the Bible says in Acts 4:12 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name (Jesus) under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Funny isn’t it that Peter doesn’t say there is no other Church, or Pope, or Mary, or himself. Peter confesses that the only way to Heaven is through Christ, not the church.

As a matter of fact if you read Peters profession in Acts 4 it will disprove your misinterpretation that Christ built his church on Peter. You will rather see the truth that Christ built his church on the statement that he is the “Christ the Son of the living God”. It also amazes me that Catholics can take one chapter and verse like Matthew 16:16 to build an entire belief system. Pay particular attention to how Christ ended this topic of discussion. Matthew 16:20 “Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.”

Also It never ceases to amaze me me that Catholics, who are supposed to follow the ten commandments break so many of them within their own church system. Commandment 1. (“I am the LORD thy God… Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”)

Yet you worship the Pope, Mary, Peter, and about 100 false gods that you call saints.

Commandment 2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God,”

If you think I am lying look around your church the next time you walk in the door of your temple. Count how may images you see of those mentioned above and how many times one of those names are mentioned in your worship service.

Lastly commandment 4. Ex 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. Which is the worst of all commandments that Catholics break at every communion table. How you may ask?
The Bible says that Jesus died once for all yet you put him to death over and over again by supposedly drinking his blood and eating his body.

Here we see the protestant at his best [actually worst but I was being facetious]. The same old tried and proven untrue allegations by johnny come latelies. Most of the time these false allegations come from fundamentalist evangelical Baptists. They love to make allegations of others, especially the Catholic Church. Maybe they should start getting their own act together. Over 250 separate Baptist belief systems out there. Seems to me that people who call themselves Baptists should agree on something basic like, well, like baptism. Does it save or not? Is it a sacrament or an ordnance? Is it necessary for salvation? etc. etc. And just what is this dedication ceremony they have for infants. Seems to me it is nothing more than an appeasement ritual for Baptist moms so they won’t feel bad when other protestant moms show off their baby’s Christening photos.

Of course we have the old idol worship charge because apparently Baptists think that Catholics are so stupid that they actually worship statues. So how smart is that? I have been in a few baptist worship buildings. In some they had two pieces of wood there that they appearred to worshipped. Others had no indication that anything christian occurred there and one even had basketball hoops. I guess it doubled as a gym for their school. I have yet to meet a Baptist who, after studying the history of the early church, came to the conclusion that church resembled the Baptist denomination. I have met several though who actually believe The Trail of Blood pamphlets first produced by J.M. Carroll. In case any of you are not familiar with it. The Trail of Blood was an attempt to show that the Baptist church was never a part of the Catholic Church and tried to do so by tracing its roots through every heretical sect that ever existed. The pamphlet makes use of a chart that traces the Baptists through such groups as the Waldensians, Cathari, Paulicians and a lot of others. Some of these Baptist sects denied the divinity of Christ while others were dualistic believing in two gods. How’s that for a denomination that claims to be christian?

 

[bluelake]

The first time No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church was used was back in the 14th century, when there was only one church, schisms aside. The best article I know of on the subject comes from Fr. W. Most, here.

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ.
See Eph.2;8-9. We are saved by grace, not church memebership.

Titus 3:5 reads "He saved us because of His mercy, not because of the rigtheous things
we have done.
Rom.5:1 “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Lord does not show favoritism. Rom.2:11

God bless you,
bluelake

 

[inkaneer]

Salvation is found in Jesus Christ.
See Eph.2;8-9. We are saved by grace, not church memebership.

Titus 3:5 reads "He saved us because of His mercy, not because of the rigtheous things
we have done.
Rom.5:1 “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,
we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The Lord does not show favoritism. Rom.2:11

God bless you,
bluelake

Well yes but it begs the question of why Jesus established a church in the first place. Why have apostles? Why not have bibles miraculously appear for everyone so they can read it and interpret it for themselves. Would have been so much easier and quicker too. Of course look at the mess protestantism has made in just 500 years with this idea of individuals reading and interpreting the bible. Just think of the chaos that 2000 years of such nonsense would cause.

 

[Louemma]

I’m happy that you agree that faith needs works. Your “fear” that “Catholics” or anyone can ensure their salvation by “works alone” is not part of the teaching of Christ’s Church. His Church teaches, and emphasises in Her Sacred Scriptures that to live as Christ wants we must love and obey:
“Love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Rom 13:10). The new commandment is: “Love one another as I have loved you.” (Jn 13: 34-35). If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (Jn 14:15). “If a man loves Me, he will keep My word and My Father will love him and we will come to him and make Our home with him.” (Jn 14:21).
“He became the source of salvation to all who obey Him.” (Heb 5:9). “It is not those who say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of My Father in heaven.” (Mt 7:21).
When asked “What must I do to have eternal life?” Jesus answered, “Keep the commandments.” (Mt 19:16-17).

Two warnings: “Unless one be born of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.” (Jn 3:5). To the Galatians (3:7): For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” Secondly, “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you shall not have life in you.” (Jn 6:53).
Thus, from the first, the brethren “remained faithful to the teaching of the Apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread, and to the prayers.” (Acts 2:42). So, as Jesus commanded, His Church has the Eucharist (Holy Mass), His seven sacraments, the primacy and infallibility of the pope, Her Tradition and Her Sacred Scriptures.

The Protestants do SOME of these things but just don’t call them works.I could not say no man is incapable of sin or a man is supreme over all and that is what Primacy and infallibility of the Pope because he is only a man,nor do the Protestants pray to Mary.Not because she wasn’t a great woman because she was but the scriptures indicate that we only pray to the Lord so that is what I do.Unless there is scriptures showing that Mary should be included into the worship or prayers of the christian I must refrain from doing so because if it’s not in scripture then where is it that says we should do these things such as The Primacy and infallibility of the Pope and saying prayers to Mary.Where do the Catholics get these notions to uphold the Pope like he is a stand in for Christ on this earth and praying to Mary and how are these two things here tied in to obtaining salvation in the word of God?
The Protestant of course go on Sola Scripture but this does not set well with the Catholic teaching of oral tradition…

The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura. Catholics argue that the Bible nowhere states that it is the only authoritative guide for faith and practice. While this is true, they fail to recognize a crucially important issue. We know that the Bible is the Word of God. The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines. The only way to know for sure what God expects of us is to stay true to what we know He has revealed—the Bible. We can know, beyond the shadow of any doubt, that Scripture is true, authoritative, and reliable. The same cannot be said of tradition.

So even with these different beliefs the foundation stone of both the Catholic and the Protestant is Jesus Christ and what he has done for each and everyone on the cross.We only need to come to Jesus and accept this gift that is offered to ALL who love him and this is the only way to salvation is through Jesus.

 

[CMatt25]

Forgive me if I missed this. This is a VERY long thread. But I don’t understand this from Lumen Gentium.

“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

Isn’t this saying if someone has heard the beliefs of the Catholic Church, know their meanings, but who do not share those beliefs, then that person will not be saved?

How is this not against Christ’s words to not judge another’s salvation?

 

[Louemma]

Forgive me if I missed this. This is a VERY long thread. But I don’t understand this from Lumen Gentium.

“Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

Isn’t this saying if someone has heard the beliefs of the Catholic Church, know their meanings, but who do not share those beliefs, then that person will not be saved?

How is this not against Christ’s words to not judge another’s salvation?

Christ never made the statement that his church was only Catholic.

 

[Sherry_G]

Louemma, can you explain something about your statement:

"The Protestant of course go on Sola Scripture but this does not set well with the Catholic teaching of oral tradition…

The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura."

If you really believe this, why did you protestants remove 7 books from the Holy Bible??? You can look this up in history and then let all of us Catholics know and understand why exactly the very book you base all your beliefs on was shortened by a group of people (most probably fallible) who decided to remove these books long after the reformation…I am thinking around the early 1800’s somewhere in a meeting in Scotland. Also explain why the sacraments were kept long after the reformation also. The protestants did not “protest” all the teachings of the Catholic Church until they decided, one by one to remove pieces and parts of the teachings that were not “wanted”.

One last question please = you did not respond to the previous posters’ bible verse from John 6; 53. If you are so sure about your Sola Scriptura stance, please explain why, when Jesus himself says very clearly “Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you do not have life in you” you can ignore Him. When He personally invites us to share in His Body and Blood, all of a sudden, you don’t really believe what He says.

You pick and choose among the Scriptures and bend them according to your will. You are not Sola Scriptura, you are more like Sola Louemma’s interpretation of scripture alone. I am assuming that your persistence on the Catholic Answers Forum means that you are waiting for us to give you some reasonable answers from a Catholic perspective. We can better help you if we gain some further understanding into how you can justify your reasoning and ignore many passages of the Bible if you really believe in every word and no other means of enlightenment such as Sacred Tradition handed down directly through word of mouth by the Apostles. Consider if you can the fact that there was no Bible until 397 years after Christ died. Consider too that the Gospel of John tells us directly in John 21; 25 that there were many other things that Jesus did but the whole world could not contain all the books that would be written. Consider, too that since we had no books at all back when Jesus was walking on the earth, everything had to be taught. Teaching was the work of the Apostles. Very few words are really given to us, considering that Jesus’ public ministry lasted several years. You can’t really believe that only the Bible can contain all the information he imparted. That is really where Sacred Tradition is so important and preserved, protected and defended for 2000 years all that Jesus taught.

Try to use your wonderful intellect and think of what is reasonable and logical. Firing off a bunch of Bible verses of which we are all well aware does nothing to advance the discussion or expand your knowledge of the faith. We are called to be one body in Christ. May the Holy Spirit be with us all .

 

[Louemma]

Louemma, can you explain something about your statement:

"The Protestant of course go on Sola Scripture but this does not set well with the Catholic teaching of oral tradition…

The primary Catholic argument against sola scriptura is that the Bible does not explicitly teach sola scriptura."

If you really believe this, why did you protestants remove 7 books from the Holy Bible??? You can look this up in history and then let all of us Catholics know and understand why exactly the very book you base all your beliefs on was shortened by a group of people (most probably fallible) who decided to remove these books long after the reformation…I am thinking around the early 1800’s somewhere in a meeting in Scotland. Also explain why the sacraments were kept long after the reformation also. The protestants did not “protest” all the teachings of the Catholic Church until they decided, one by one to remove pieces and parts of the teachings that were not “wanted”.

One last question please = you did not respond to the previous posters’ bible verse from John 6; 53. If you are so sure about your Sola Scriptura stance, please explain why, when Jesus himself says very clearly “Amen, amen I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you do not have life in you” you can ignore Him. When He personally invites us to share in His Body and Blood, all of a sudden, you don’t really believe what He says.

You pick and choose among the Scriptures and bend them according to your will. You are not Sola Scriptura, you are more like Sola Louemma’s interpretation of scripture alone. I am assuming that your persistence on the Catholic Answers Forum means that you are waiting for us to give you some reasonable answers from a Catholic perspective. We can better help you if we gain some further understanding into how you can justify your reasoning and ignore many passages of the Bible if you really believe in every word and no other means of enlightenment such as Sacred Tradition handed down directly through word of mouth by the Apostles. Consider if you can the fact that there was no Bible until 397 years after Christ died. Consider too that the Gospel of John tells us directly in John 21; 25 that there were many other things that Jesus did but the whole world could not contain all the books that would be written. Consider, too that since we had no books at all back when Jesus was walking on the earth, everything had to be taught. Teaching was the work of the Apostles. Very few words are really given to us, considering that Jesus’ public ministry lasted several years. You can’t really believe that only the Bible can contain all the information he imparted. That is really where Sacred Tradition is so important and preserved, protected and defended for 2000 years all that Jesus taught.

Try to use your wonderful intellect and think of what is reasonable and logical. Firing off a bunch of Bible verses of which we are all well aware does nothing to advance the discussion or expand your knowledge of the faith. We are called to be one body in Christ. May the Holy Spirit be with us all .

Jesus never made the statement that his church is Catholic ONLY and if you are basing this on the scriptures about communion the Catholic church is not the only church that partakes of the Flesh of Christ or his blood.So that is not a legal argument based only upon the assumption of communion as being the true church.
also I am not here to argue with those like yourself.
There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and instead of arguing that fact you should rejoice that salvation is offered to those who love Christ.
As far as sacred tradition goes if it Holy Spirit inspired then those sacred traditions would be in his word and they are not.If sacred tradition is tied in with receiving true salvation then these traditions would be in God’s word and not controlled by men that claim to have true salvation.The apostles were commanded to carry the good news to the ends of the earth and they did,keeping nothing back in spreading the gospel which is the infallible word of God.Show me the sacred tradition in God’s word that the Catholic have kept back.

 

[chrisman27]

I believe there is salvation for all CHRISTIANS.

Non -christians , I have my doubts.

Jesus said No comes to the Father except thru him…so I am guessing
he felt strongly about it.

 

[Sherry_G]

Jesus never made the statement that his church is Catholic ONLY and if you are basing this on the scriptures about communion the Catholic church is not the only church that partakes of the Flesh of Christ or his blood.So that is not a legal argument based only upon the assumption of communion as being the true church.
also I am not here to argue with those like yourself.
There is salvation outside of the Catholic Church and instead of arguing that fact you should rejoice that salvation is offered to those who love Christ.
As far as sacred tradition goes if it Holy Spirit inspired then those sacred traditions would be in his word and they are not.If sacred tradition is tied in with receiving true salvation then these traditions would be in God’s word and not controlled by men that claim to have true salvation.The apostles were commanded to carry the good news to the ends of the earth and they did,keeping nothing back in spreading the gospel which is the infallible word of God.Show me the sacred tradition in God’s word that the Catholic have kept back.

reread what you wrote and consider it. Jesus commanded the apostles to go forth and teach. He never gave them a book, There was no Bible. This is a point that you continue to ignore. Catholic was a word used by St. Ignatius in the year 130 AD or thereabout. It was a descriptive word meaning All of one piece - or - everywhere the same. The Church was just “the Church” that Jesus founded. For fifteen hundred years after Christ died the Church was everywhere the same. History proves this. Everywhere the same still is the descritive word for our one true church of Jesus Christ. I have traveled extensively and can attend Mass anywhere and it is the same. The language may be different, but the content is the same, exactly the same for over a billion of us on the planet right now. It is truly amazing and wonderful and I thank God for being called to His holy Church everyday.

No argument intended. Just offering some of what I know to be true for your consideration. Our Catholic faith is immersed in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I have attended other denomination’s services with in-laws from time to time and always feel a sense of loss. There are just bible verses, songs and preaching by a man about his interpretation of what the verses mean.

The Sacred Tradition is the Mass itself. It’s been celebrated in the same way since the beginning. If you have never attended, I highly recommend that you do so to get a better perspective about it. You can look up lots of documents written by the faithful going all the way back to the days of the Apostles, too which describe in detail the exact elements of the Mass that we still celebrate today. That is all part of Sacred Tradition.

 

[Bengoshi]

What a great post Abu!! I might add that, although it’s certainly a nice thing for all Christians to have faith, we are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace, or as I like to illustrate it in the form of an acronym: God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense. That is, Christ’s passion, death, and, praise God, His resurrection represent His “expense.”

Yes, you are correct on this one. Good acrostic too! We are saved by GRACE through FAITH in CHRIST of the BIBLE for the GLORY OF GOD (Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solo Christo, Sola Scriptura, Soli Deo Gloria).