Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Abu]

Beth Martin

1. I do not know anyone that is able to keep His commandments
2. Anyone who can give the gospel message can forgive or retain sins

1. That is precisely why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Penance as one of seven, so that those who commit sin may be forgiven through Her Sacrament, given to Her by Jesus. Some never learn.
2. That “anyone” can forgive or retain sins is a frightful rejection of Jesus and His Church – some never learn.

Metamorphoo
In essence, Vatican II redefined what it meant to be “Catholic.”

False. From the 1983 CIC, according to Canon 205, Catholics are those in full communion with the Church through the bonds of profession of faith, the sacraments and ecclesiastical governance. Vatican II, in the *Dogmatic Constitution on the Church *#14 taught, again, “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."

Having Christ’s teaching through His Church offered to them, and Her Scriptures of the NT, some still try to deny Christ and interpret Her Scriptures to their own destruction. (See 2 Pet: 2:1).
Thus, some people really make their own trouble, and seem to deserve Christ’s admonition to His Apostles. Until and unless you listen to Christ through His Church you may be in the same boat as His Apostles in earlier days – to His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51). Further, having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, on whom He founded His Church, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Well as I understand it there are no Baptists in heaven because Baptists have no way to deal with the expiation of sin. The Baptist method of treating Jesus as just a carpet under which they sweep the dirt [sin] so they can say that Jesus covered their sin is not biblical. Jesus said He was the Door, the Good Shepherd, the Vine and the Bread come down from heaven but He never said He was a carpet.

So tell me if I am understanding you correctly … anyone who is a Baptist (or any non-Roman Catholic) has no way to deal with the expiation of sin–and therefore, cannot receive salvation. Thus, your understanding of “no salvation outside the Catholic Church” literally means a person cannot be saved unless he is literally a Roman Catholic? The “forgiveness of sin” issue (i.e., lack of absolution by a priest) was, as I recall, a major reason why the RCC in the past said non-Catholics couldn’t be (or would have a hard time being) saved. I seem to recall that the Baltimore Catechism specifically lists the failure of Protestants to obtain such absolution as making salvation for them very difficult.

Jesus established one church and that is the Catholic Church as no other christian denomination has the 2,000 year history necessary to be the church established by Christ. That church is also known as the Body of Christ. Saints in heaven are part of that body just as saints on earth are. Therefore, in heaven there are no Baptists or Lutherans etc. there are only Catholics. Any Baptist or Lutheran who is judged worthy of Heaven becomes Catholic in purgatory when his works are tested by fire and he is purified. Now that, I admit, is an extremely general explanation. The problem issue is that of sin and remitting it. Now scripture says there is two types of sin one deadly [mortal sin] the other not deadly [venial sin]. Mortal sin is deadly because by committing it one incurs damnation. Venial sin does not incur damnation and one can be saved with only venial sins. So what is mortal sin? Abortion is one as is murder. Paul writes that by receiving the eucharist unworthily [with unrepented sin on one’s soul] one eats and drinks damnation. There are others. In short mortal sin is a serious offense to God and thus entails a serious consequence. Now then, salvation is possible for anyone who lives a life without serious sin. But for those who commit serious sin that sin must be remitted [forgiven]. Catholics Orthodox and Copts have a God given way of doing that through the church but protestants do not.

 

[Pete_Holter]

From Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology:

When we say that God imputes Christ’s righteousness to us it means that God

thinks of Christ’s righteousness as belonging to us, or regards it as belonging to us. He
“reckons” it to our account…

I love Dr. Grudem.

He teaches that regeneration is the first stage in sanctification. And that regeneration precedes justification…

A definite moral change occurs in our lives at the point of regeneration, for Paul talks about the “washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5)…

This initial moral change is the first stage in sanctification. In this sense, there is some overlap between regeneration and sanctification, for this moral change is actually a part of regeneration….

This initial step in sanctification involves a definite break from the ruling power and love of sin, so that the believer is no longer ruled or dominated by sin and no longer loves sin. (: “Sanctification”Systematic Theology)

[W]e have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes “before” saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. (: “Regeneration”Systematic Theology).

In the Reformed understanding, we cannot exercise saving faith until we are regenerated, and we cannot be justified until we exercise faith. So there is a necessary temporal separation between these two acts of God in Reformed theology, with regeneration (and the first stage in sanctification) preceding justification. We have to first be born again by the secret work of God and given a new heart. In being regenerated, we are no longer dead in our sins and trespasses, but we are a new creation, having been cleansed from all our uncleannesses (cf. Ezekiel 36:25).

But if we are born again, then we are no longer “ungodly,” and God no longer justifies the ungodly; rather, He justifies the born-again son of God! If you search the Scriptures for “ungodly,” you will see that the born again sons and daughters of God are not grouped under this ignominious appellation.

Catholics, on the other hand, can genuinely argue that justification and regeneration should be viewed as and indeed are a single event because we are regenerated, justified, and have faith, hope, and love all poured into our hearts when we are baptized, everything happening at the same time. The Catholic understanding preserves the Biblical truth that we believe “in Him Who justifies the ungodly” (Rom 4:5).

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

 

[Beth_Martin]

Where did I make any claim as you indicate that I know who are saved and who are not and condemn those that disagree with me? That is a false and fraudulent accusation. I judged no one. But you, how about you? Where in scripture does it say that “anyone who can give the gospel message can forgive or retain sin”? You made that up out of thin air. We are to forgive others who trespass against us personally and we will be forgiven by the same measure that we forgive others. But we do not have the option to retain sin for if we do then our sin will be retained too. But in John 20:23 Jesus gives the authority to the Apostles to forgive the sins of anyone, not just those who sin against us personally but anyone. Jesus said:

“23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [John 20:23] RSV

The KJV has it:

"23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.: [John 20:23] KJV

The word translated as ‘whose’ is the Greek word tis and it means ‘any’ or ‘any man’. This is not just for those who sin against the Apostles personally but anyone. They also can retain sin so it is not forgiven. Quite a different scenario than that of a personal sin.

Matthew 18:18 is the binding and loosening power given to the Apostles as a group when united with Peter. Has nothing to do with forgiving sin except that authority is given from Jesus to the Apostles.

Well as I understand it there are no Baptists in heaven because Baptists have no way to deal with the expiation of sin. The Baptist method of treating Jesus as just a carpet under which they sweep the dirt [sin] so they can say that Jesus covered their sin is not biblical.

Are you so blind not to see your sin in condemnation of Baptist? If It was rephrased and the word Catholic was put in place of Baptist; I wonder what the response would be?

You have no clue as to what binding and loosing means and in the context of Matthew 18; Jesus is speaking to all of His followers including the Apostles because the power is in the message, not the messenger. Just as the Parable of the Soils, the power is not in the sower, but the prepared heart that the seed (Word of God) penetrates and produces fruit. Otherwise, why would we need to have a command to go to all the world to give the message if the power resides with the messenger? Do you follow?

Some Catholic said there is not a doctrine prohibiting the lay people from going "door to door’ with the message of hope; so is it the message or the messenger that binds? If you reject the gospel maessage where will you be? If you accept it, thus receiving the HS, where will you be? So is it the message or the messenger? Do you follow?

May god bless you this day!!

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

No need to go out on a limb, The CCC is available on-line. This is introductory paragraph on the sacrament of baptism.

Thanks David and God bless you!!

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

1. That is precisely why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Penance as one of seven, so that those who commit sin may be forgiven through Her Sacrament, given to Her by Jesus. Some never learn.
2. That “anyone” can forgive or retain sins is a frightful rejection of Jesus and His Church – some never learn.

False. From the 1983 CIC, according to Canon 205, Catholics are those in full communion with the Church through the bonds of profession of faith, the sacraments and ecclesiastical governance. Vatican II, in the *Dogmatic Constitution on the Church *#14 taught, again, “Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it, or to remain in it."

Having Christ’s teaching through His Church offered to them, and Her Scriptures of the NT, some still try to deny Christ and interpret Her Scriptures to their own destruction. (See 2 Pet: 2:1).
Thus, some people really make their own trouble, and seem to deserve Christ’s admonition to His Apostles. Until and unless you listen to Christ through His Church you may be in the same boat as His Apostles in earlier days – to His own Apostles, “whom He loved to the end” Jesus exclaimed: “Have you no sense, no wits, are your hearts dulled, can’t you see, your ears hear, don’t you remember?” (Mk 6:51). Further, having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, on whom He founded His Church, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

Jesus said that only God can forgive sins. Jesus also made the prmise that the holy Spirit, whom He sent would lead each Christian into the truth; He never said a church would. So now I am going out onto another limb and guess that your Church has a doctrine that only they, ever who they are, can interpret Scripture.

Is there some lighter topic like which is the better Bible cover, leather, hardback or paper?

May God help us all!!

Beth

 

[Bengoshi]

I love Dr. Grudem.

He teaches that regeneration is the first stage in sanctification. And that regeneration precedes justification…

A definite moral change occurs in our lives at the point of regeneration, for Paul talks about the “washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5)…

This initial moral change is the first stage in sanctification. In this sense, there is some overlap between regeneration and sanctification, for this moral change is actually a part of regeneration….

This initial step in sanctification involves a definite break from the ruling power and love of sin, so that the believer is no longer ruled or dominated by sin and no longer loves sin. (Systematic Theology: “Sanctification”)

[W]e have defined regeneration to be the act of God awakening spiritual life within us, bringing us from spiritual death to spiritual life. On this definition, it is natural to understand that regeneration comes before saving faith. It is in fact this work of God that gives us the spiritual ability to respond to God in faith. However, when we say that it comes “before” saving faith, it is important to remember that they usually come so close together that it will ordinarily seem to us that they are happening at the same time. (Systematic Theology: “Regeneration”).

In the Reformed understanding, we cannot exercise saving faith until we are regenerated, and we cannot be justified until we exercise faith. So there is a necessary temporal separation between these two acts of God in Reformed theology, with regeneration (and the first stage in sanctification) preceding justification. We have to first be born again by the secret work of God and given a new heart. In being regenerated, we are no longer dead in our sins and trespasses, but we are a new creation, having been cleansed from all our uncleannesses (cf. Ezekiel 36:25).

But if we are born again, then we are no longer “ungodly,” and God no longer justifies the ungodly; rather, He justifies the born-again son of God! If you search the Scriptures for “ungodly,” you will see that the born again sons and daughters of God are not grouped under this ignominious appellation.

Catholics, on the other hand, can genuinely argue that justification and regeneration should be viewed as and indeed are a single event because we are regenerated, justified, and have faith, hope, and love all poured into our hearts when we are baptized, everything happening at the same time. The Catholic understanding preserves the Biblical truth that we believe “in Him Who justifies the ungodly” (Rom 4:5).

Your brother in the LORD,
Pete

Hey bro,

I appreciate the link! The site is really nice!
I just have the soft and hard copies of Dr. Grudem’s Systematic Theology. It’s what we use in class.

Godbless!

 

[Des]

Are you so blind not to see your sin in condemnation of Baptist? If It was rephrased and the word Catholic was put in place of Baptist; I wonder what the response would be?

You have less of a chance getting to Heaven than a Catholic who has the Sacrement of Reconciliation would.

You have no clue as to what binding and loosing means and in the context of Matthew 18; Jesus is speaking to all of His followers including the Apostles because the power is in the message, not the messenger. Just as the Parable of the Soils, the power is not in the sower, but the prepared heart that the seed (Word of God) penetrates and produces fruit. Otherwise, why would we need to have a command to go to all the world to give the message if the power resides with the messenger? Do you follow?

Is this your infallible judgment regarding this passage or could you be wrong?

In reality, you are way out of context. The command was to his remaining 11 Apostles and not to you or myself. You read through the erroneious scope of protestant theology creating false doctrines out of passages otherwise very plain to see.

16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

 

[Abu]

Beth Martin
Jesus said that only God can forgive sins. Jesus also made the prmise that the holy Spirit, whom He sent would lead each Christian into the truth; He never said a church would. So now I am going out onto another limb and guess that your Church has a doctrine that only they, ever who they are, can interpret Scripture.

All false. But listen and learn the truth at the Last Supper:
And the promise was fulfilled: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

We are warned against false teaching.
St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

The other apostolic prerogatives were inherent in the sacramental powers received from Christ. In addition to the commission they were given to preach and teach, Christ consecrated only His apostles to re-enact what He had done at the Last Supper: “Do this as a memorial of Me.” (Lk 22:19); and the power of remitting sins: “As the father has sent Me, so I am sending you….For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.” (Jn 20: 21-23).

So, the right of the apostles “to teach, govern and sanctify” was rooted in their ordination to a share in Christ’s priesthood, which occurred at the first Lord’s Supper. In virtue of the ordination, they received all the graces necessary to exercise their apostolate effectively for the people of God.

If you continue to deny the Christ who gave us His Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, who wrote nothing, and whose Church gave us the NT – and continue to falsify His teaching, that will do you no good.

 

[Beth_Martin]

You have less of a chance getting to Heaven than a Catholic who has the Sacrement of Reconciliation would.

LOL…you crack me up!! I’m already there; I’m just an alien here fulfilling the purpose that God predestined before I was even born; my home is in heaven along with my citizenship as God has promised to those that He has set His love on.

Is this your infallible judgment regarding this passage or could you be wrong?

In reality, you are way out of context. The command was to his remaining 11 Apostles and not to you or myself. You read through the erroneious scope of protestant theology creating false doctrines out of passages otherwise very plain to see.

*16 *And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

The only thing you have shown me is you do not understand the word of God; most people do not mostly because they are not Christians (“natural people”) or they are Christians and hardly put anytime in reading and studying the word (“babes who need milk”). My gosh if you do not see that Matthew 18 is a sermon, then there is not much one can say; it is that obvious! Either that otr some parent allowed their child to go astray…LOL Maybe you are the erroneous one; that is a possibility isn’t it?

May God bless you dear!!

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

All false. But listen and learn the truth at the Last Supper:
And the promise was fulfilled: “I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in My name, He will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when He comes, the Spirit of truth, He will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify Me, because He will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that He will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

We are warned against false teaching.
St. Paul has counseled you as to whom to avoid: “Preach the word. Be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, entreat, rebuke with all patience and teaching. For there will come a time when far from being content with sound teaching, people are avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes.” (2 Tim 4:3).

“That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive.” (Eph 4:14).

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).

The other apostolic prerogatives were inherent in the sacramental powers received from Christ. In addition to the commission they were given to preach and teach, Christ consecrated only His apostles to re-enact what He had done at the Last Supper: “Do this as a memorial of Me.” (Lk 22:19); and the power of remitting sins: “As the father has sent Me, so I am sending you….For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.” (Jn 20: 21-23).

So, the right of the apostles “to teach, govern and sanctify” was rooted in their ordination to a share in Christ’s priesthood, which occurred at the first Lord’s Supper. In virtue of the ordination, they received all the graces necessary to exercise their apostolate effectively for the people of God.

If you continue to deny the Christ who gave us His Church, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, who wrote nothing, and whose Church gave us the NT – and continue to falsify His teaching, that will do you no good.

“Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

"The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this {man} who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?”

You are right and God is wrong…LOL

God is wrong again - see Psalm 19 & Psalm 86 concerning the what the Psalmist says concerning who teaches each individual, then read onto Psalm 119, then read onto 2 Thessalonians 2, then Proverbs 2, then Hebrews 5 and on and on and on. It is one of the primary roles of the Holy Spirit to teach each believer concerning the truth of His word; in fact without the Holy Spirit teachig the individual; he cannot understand the Word of God according to God.

I do appreciate you teaching me some of the doctrines of your church even though they are very strange to me.

Thanks and may the God of the universe bless you!!

Beth

 

[Des]

LOL…you crack me up!! I’m already there; I’m just an alien here fulfilling the purpose that God predestined before I was even born; my home is in heaven along with my citizenship as God has promised to those that He has set His love on.

Perhaps you should preach your predestination heresy somewhere else Beth. Catholics on this forum aren’t as gullible as you’d like us to be.

The only thing you have shown me is you do not understand the word of God; most people do not mostly because they are not Christians (“natural people”) or they are Christians and hardly put anytime in reading and studying the word (“babes who need milk”). My gosh if you do not see that Matthew 18 is a sermon, then there is not much one can say; it is that obvious! Either that otr some parent allowed their child to go astray…LOL Maybe you are the erroneous one; that is a possibility isn’t it?

If I am wrong, then Jesus lied when he said “I’ll be with you always”. Christ cannot lead his Church into error. You can and have lead yourself into error though Beth. And you didn’t asnwer me. Is it possible you could be in error regarding your own fallible interpretation of that verse? I’ll say I cannot be wrong so long as it doesn’t contradict the infallible Magistrium of the Church. Now what do you say. And please don’t say you’re right because the “Bible says so” nonesense since we know your brain has to do the interpretating. The Bible doesn’t do it for you.

May God bless you dear!!

Beth

I always find it amusing to see a God Bless added after the absense of charity.

And this coming from one of God’s saved elects who was predestined for this position since the beginning. Tsk Tsk…shame on you Beth.

 

[Bengoshi]

Perhaps you should preach your predestination heresy somewhere else Beth. Catholics on this forum aren’t as gullible as you’d like us to be.

Wasn’t St. Augustine one of the prominent proponents of predestination? Or are you disowning him now?

 

[Abu]

Beth Martin
"The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?”

I trust that you will come to see that the Scribes and Pharisees, as Jesus showed, are “whited sepulchers” (See Mt 23) who never did come to see that “I and the Father are one.” (Jn 10:30). Which is precisely why Jesus could command: “As the father has sent Me, so I am sending you….For those whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven; for those whose sins you retain, they are retained.” (Jn 20: 21-23). And why Christ consecrated only His apostles to re-enact what He had done at the Last Supper: “Do this as a memorial of Me.” (Lk 22:19). His priests as commissioned by Him are in persona Christi. That is why St Luke in his Acts of the Apostles records that “They continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers.” (Lk 2:42).

 

[Saved_Lady]

Thank you, Saved Lady!

Baptism is also the means by which we receive that grace of God. Paul tells us that we “are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith” (Rom 3:24-25). It is Christ’s blood, i.e., His death on the cross, that propitiates God’s wrath and justifies us. His death. But Christ was also “raised for our justification” (Rom 4:25). And so it is specifically Christ’s death and resurrection that bring justification. “For the death He died He died to sin” (Rom 6:10), and “We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him” (Rom. 6:9). “For one who has died has been set free [justified] from sin” (Rom 6:7). The question becomes, “How does God effect our union with Christ so that we can die and rise with Him and thereby be justified in Him?” Paul tells us “that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death” and “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom 6:3; 4). Again, we were “buried with Him in baptism, in which [we] were also raised with Him through faith in the powerful working of God, Who raised Him from the dead” (Col 2:12). “Baptism… now saves you… through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (1 Pet 3:21).

We know that justification entails the forgiveness of sins. “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven” (Rom 4:7). And we saw in the previous post that the forgiveness of sins was bestowed in baptism (cf. Acts 2:38-39; 22:16). We see now that baptism unites us to Christ’s death and resurrection, which together serve as the principle works of God in Christ meriting our justification. So when we come to Romans 10, and we hear Paul asserting that “the righteousness based on faith says, ‘Do not say in your heart, “Who will ascend into heaven?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ down) or ‘ “Who will descend into the abyss?” ’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead),” we see the language of the effect of baptismal grace, which unites us to Christ in His death and resurrection. We understand that Paul is saying that our faith is able to lay us down with Christ in the grave, and raise us back up again with Him in heaven, precisely because the gift of grace that God bestows in baptism makes our faith in Him a justifying faith, a saving faith that unites us to Christ. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3:27), and because of this baptism you now have “Christ in you, the hope of glory” (Col 1:27). And “If… you have been raised with Christ [through faith in baptism], seek the things that are above, where Christ is… For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God” (Col 3:1; 3).

The Bible teaches that faith justifies. It also teaches that justification takes place in baptism. This is why Catholics believe that both Protestants and Catholics are justified “by faith in baptism,” because the same Catholic faith is infused in all of us as a gift at the time of our baptism. If this were not true, we would be justified by faith before we are baptized. But now it is that we receive justification, regeneration, faith, hope, and love all at the same time when we are baptized. The faith that we have by the prevenient grace of God before coming to baptism is not of the same nature as the faith that we receive in baptism. It is at our baptism that we call upon the name of the LORD and are saved (cf. Acts 22:16; Rom 10:13). Protestants and Catholics who have been baptized share the same Catholic faith until they forfeit it through heresy or schism or by apostatizing.

Your brother in Christ,
Pete

I believe all of this from the Bible, but It still does not say that Baptism saves you. Again Romans 10:13 says, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved. period.
If Baptism saves you, why was it posted that not one non-catholic will go to Heaven?
I was saved, and then baptised so why will I not go to Heaven? I am not Catholic. I am going to Heaven because I believe what the Bible says.
Your Sister in Christ,
Susan

 

[Sherry_G]

I believe all of this from the Bible, but It still does not say that Baptism saves you. Again Romans 10:13 says, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL be saved. period.
If Baptism saves you, why was it posted that not one non-catholic will go to Heaven?
I was saved, and then baptised so why will I not go to Heaven? I am not Catholic. I am going to Heaven because I believe what the Bible says.
Your Sister in Christ,
Susan

To say “I WAS saved”…when was this and what are you doing now? Your belief in the Bible is totally self directed. Why bother reading the Bible if you have already been saved?

 

[Sir_Knight]

The only thing you have shown me is you do not understand the word of God; most people do not mostly because they are not Christians (“natural people”) or they are Christians and hardly put anytime in reading and studying the word (“babes who need milk”). My gosh if you do not see that Matthew 18 is a sermon, then there is not much one can say; it is that obvious! Either that otr some parent allowed their child to go astray…LOL Maybe you are the erroneous one; that is a possibility isn’t it?

May God bless you dear!!

Beth

It’s amazing that the early believers, those who were taught either directly by the Apostles or their immediate successors, got this important point wrong but you, reading this nearly two thousand years later suddenly got the correct understanding of it

 

[Pete_Holter]

Here’s an example of the “forceful” pre-VII language that I’m talking about. (Also, the following even seems to veto the idea of further developments of dogma, as I understand it.) Anyway, here’s the quote:

*Pope Pius IX, First Vatican Council, Sess. 3, Chap. 2 on Revelation, 1870, ex cathedra: *“Hence, also, that understanding of its sacred dogmas must be perpetually retained, which Holy Mother Church has once declared; and there must never be a recession from that meaning under the specious name of a deeper understanding. -]The only meaning of the dogma Outside the Church there is no salvation is that which holy Mother Church has once declared in Her definitions. That meaning is that all who die without the Catholic Faith or outside the Church or in a non-Catholic religion cannot be saved/-].”

Sorry - I’m not trying to be difficult - it just comes naturally…

It’s OK, brother. I understand the difficulty you are going through!

My first word of advice is that you not seek to learn the Catholic faith from the Dimond brothers. I struck through Peter Dimond’s comment above.

Secondly, I encourage you to continue searching for that unity of meaning that exists in the dogma of there being no salvation outside the Church, both before and after Vatican II. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith confirmed in 1973 that Vatican I

“condemned the opinion that ‘dogmas once proposed by the Church must, with the progress of science be given a meaning other than that which was understood by the Church, or which she understands.’ There is no doubt that, according to these texts of the Council, the meaning of dogmas which is declared by the Church is determinate and unalterable.

“Such an opinion is likewise in contrast with Pope John’s assertion regarding Christian doctrine at the opening of the Second Vatican Council: ‘This certain and unchangeable doctrine, to which faithful obedience is due, has to be explored and presented in a way that is demanded by our times. One thing is the deposit of faith, which consists of the truths contained in sacred doctrine, another thing is the manner of presentation, always however with the same meaning and signification’ ” (Mysterium Ecclesiae).

From the same document: “[T]he objects of Catholic faith – which are called dogmas – necessarily are and always have been the unalterable norm both for faith and theological science.”

So be encouraged, my brother!

In Christ,
Pete

 

[Beth_Martin]

It’s amazing that the early believers, those who were taught either directly by the Apostles or their immediate successors, got this important point wrong but you, reading this nearly two thousand years later suddenly got the correct understanding of it

Got Milk?

 

[Abu]

Saved Lady
If Baptism saves you, why was it posted that not one non-catholic will go to Heaven?

**
Facing Reality**
The “necessity of the Catholic Church for salvation” = no salvation without the Catholic Church; the doctrinal meaning of the phrase, means that whether they know it or not, salvation for anyone can come only through Christ’s Church.

“By Faith it is to be firmly held that outside the Apostolic Roman Church none can achieve salvation. This is the only ark of salvation. He who does not enter into it will perish in the flood. Nevertheless, equally certainly it is to be held that those who suffer from invincible ignorance of the true religion, are not for this reason guilty in the eyes of the Lord. Now, then, who could presume in himself an ability to set the boundaries of such ignorance, taking into consideration the natural differences of peoples, land, native talents, and so many other factors” (Pope Pius IX, *Singulari Quidem *1863 A.D.). [My emphasis].

But you do need to investigate now that you know a bit more, like Scott Hahn and so many other converts who have come home. The Fathers of the Early Church, and Her Doctors, all professed the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Faith.

Long Spiritual Journey Home
The story of the conversion of a philosopher
By William Doino
insidethevatican.com:80/newsflash/2008/newsflash-jan07-08.htm

Francis Beckwith was, at the time of his conversion, one of the nation’s leading Evangelical thinkers, a tenured Associate Professor of Philosophy and Church-State Studies at Baylor University in Texas. And not only that: he was the reigning president of the Evangelical Theological Society of America, the premier intellectual association of American Evangelicals. Resigning that post to become a Catholic is, well, something akin to the President of Notre Dame stepping down to become a Baptist minister.

Moreover, Beckwith had been raised Catholic, so his newfound religion was not so much a “conversion” as it was a return to the faith, after many years away from Rome.