Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Des]

How much submission counts? 25% count?, 50% count? 75% count? or 100% count?

How about you answer the question for me. In the days of the Apostles, would you consider anyone Christians who only submitted to half of their teachings and said “Meh, I don’t believe it” to the rest?

Ask them where the extra revelation comes from and how they know it is from God, then give me a full report.

They would ask you the same thing Beth. They’re sola Scriptura like yourself remember. What right do you have to preach to them that they’re wrong since you both believe you’re guided by the Holy Spirit when you read your Bible? And I’ll ask again. Who’s going to decide which side gets the heresy label and which doesn’t?

Paul did not emphasize water baptism is relation to the salvation message of the gospel because he knows water baptism does not remove sin;

Again, please don’t add your own feelings into the interpretation. Show me where Paul explicitly states this? You first made an attempt to use it to deemphasize water Baptism. Then when you realized your error, you’re now backtracking to say he meant it doesn’t remove sin when NOWHERE in that verse it’s even stated. Humble yourself and admit your mistake Beth.

only God removes sin and He does it directly.

You’ve yet to prove this using your Bible. Jesus used dirt with His spit to cure a blind man. It’s not uncommon for God to use elements of the earth to have His Power pass through.

Since water baptism is a command of obedience and associates the Christian with Christ’s death, burial and resurrection it is important to be baptized with water but the Christian’s true and saving baptism is the one Jesus gives at the moment true faith in the Him takes place and that baptism is the one John the Baptist spoke of the Holy Spirit, which seals the believer to the day of redemption, which is the picture Peter painted that you are unable to see.

This is what happens when you start from one erroneous belief, then proceed to use it to dictate to you what other verses are telling you thereby creating a mess for yourself. Everything you said above is not Biblical and has been proven by many others on here Biblically.

As I said the Ark of salvation which sealed the only belivers and saved them from the judgment is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given by God, which when you go back to the account in Gensis you will see that it was God that closed the door of the Ark, thus sealing the believers which protected them from His wrath. The pickle you have is that Peter explicitly makes it clear he is not speaking of water by the statement “Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh”

Already refuted. We can do this circular dance forever if you like. It’s not going to make it any more true than when you tried it the first time.

Why did the Holy Spirit wrting through Peter put that in there? So the reader would not be confused as to what baptism the picture is.

Already explained why. I’ll try to say it again so you may better understand it this time. He starts off by stating that Baptism now saves. But he wants to make sure we understand that it’s not the water that does this by itself when He says the “Not the removal of dirt from the flesh” part which is what ordinary water does. He then goes on to explain that it’s your conscience working with Christ first and foremost. THIS is what initiates it. THIS is what conveys the Salvic Graces of the Cross through the element of water. And again, we know water is a must because again, he started off by saying Baptism now saves.

If you believe you can merit salvation by something you do, then I agree. No one I know of in the OT was ever water baptized, but Hebrews tells us they were saved by faith, the only way God has ever saved a soul from hell.

And nobody I know in the OT ever believed in Jesus yet it’s apparent according to you, it’s necessary nowadays. Same with Baptism. I guess things change huh.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Beth, try re-reading what you just wrote above. You state that God used division to keep the pure gospel intact and then you point out that satan and ungodly men infiltrate the church. God created one Church through Jesus Christ and that is the Catholic Church. It is satan and ungodly men that have distorted the truth and created division.

I know exactly what I stated; the point is the true church has not been revealed as Scripture teaches, just happens to be contrary to your belief and understanding of the church Jesus is building. The churches on earth we pass by everyday contains wheat and tares, the godly and ungodly whether a Catholic church or a Protestant church; makes no difference to God. The saints are the ones that have recognized their spiritual insolvency before a Holy God and their desperate need for the savior, have come to a true repentance and have surrendered their life to Him as both Lord and savior and this is done by faith and given by His grace. Those that believe they must do something to add to the work Christ completed do not know Christ or His gospel and these people are found in all walks of life within the physical buildings we call churches. I’ll tell you how God causes the most division is through persecution because the phonies all leave and only the faithful remain. God allowed the Corinthian church to be divided to keep the Apostle Paul humble because in Pauls weakness it was when God’s power was the strongest. Jesus allowed Peter to sifted like wheat and after satan was done; Jesus said you will be able to stregthen the brethren. Job is another example. Divisions within churches is nothing new. Just look at all the warnings about false teachng and false converts and it will continue to progress as we get closer to the Second Coming.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Okay, show me where in his writings Paul mentions the beatitudes that Jesus preached in Matthew 5. Then show me where Paul writes that his letters contain the whole gospel. You say that Paul preached the gospel. No one doubts that at all. **BUT ** that is not the issue here. The issue is whether the full gospel is contained in Paul’s writings and it isn’t. Like I said, Paul’s writings are remedial to correct errors that developed in the cities and toewns that he first preached. But the totality of Paul’s preaching is not contained in his writings. Moreover, if the Bible contains the whole gospel then why did Jesus have twelve Apostles when most of them never wrote a single iota of inspired scripture? The fact is you’re stuck with sola scriptura which is, at it’s best a tradition of man and at its worst, a demonic plan to divide the christians. That it has succeeded in dividing christians is attested to by the thousands of protestant denominations. Like I said before, time to wake up and smell the incense. The Bible was a Catholic liturgical book [liturgical= to be used in worship] that protestants degraded to a self study guide to christianity.

I was providing a rebuttle to your claim that Paul did not proclaim the gospel in the Bible, then above you deny it again. What is the gospel in your world?

I’ll leave you with one passage for you to dwell on.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 ***For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, ***24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

 

[Beth_Martin]

I think there is alot of misunderstanding on both sides. First of all, the word Gospel comes from the greek word “Evangelium”, which means, good news. When Paul talks about the gospel, he is not referring to just Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. He is talking about the “good news” of our redemption through Christ Jesus. This is preached orally and written in the epistles, which appears to be the earliest writing of the New Testament.

Sola Scriptura does not mean that everything that was taught or true needs to be in the Bible. Sola Scriptura means that the Bible alone is the ultimate authority concerning teachings and doctrine. That was the original meaning by Luther and the reformers. Today many Evangelical Christians are teaching “Solo” Scriptura, not “Sola” Scriptura. This means that for anything to be recognized as true, it must be in the Bible.

I know many non-Catholic Christians who believe that the Bible is the highest authority of teaching, however, do believe in teachings which are not in the Bible. As long, as it does not contradict the bible. For example, many of these people believe that Peter and Paul were matyred, with Paul being beheaded and Peter Crucified upside down. This is not in the bible.

What they don’t believe is that any Church or leader having equal authority to the Bible. Many believe the Catholic Church puts the teachings of the Pope and the church on a higher level of authority than the bible. I think many Catholic may believe this.

However, that is not what the Catholic church teaches. It puts the large traditions, known as the deposits of faith, the oral teachings of Jesus on an equal level of authority with the bible. Catholic teaching does not try to overide the bible with oral teachings. They are compatible according to Catholic interpretation. However, many non-Catholic Christians do not have the same interpretation. The way they interpret those passages seems to present a contradiction to the Catholic oral tradition and the bible.

Having followed this thread for a while, I do not think that the Sola Scriptura is the root of the main differences. It is the interpretation of the scriptures themselves. The bigger issue that has divided Catholic and Protestants is the issue of “Solo Fide”, Justification by “faith alone”. Both Catholic and Protestants use the bible to defend their postiton. Primarily the books of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and James. A different view of how one is ‘justified’ by God is drawn from the same passages. It doesn’t appear that either side has been persuaded one iota by the other.

Hello Edward,
You made many legitimate points; albeit oversimplified due to the limited time and space that would be needed to expound on all these things.

I have a question for you. Since Catholicism puts her oral traditions on “equal” par with God’s Word as you noted, what is the real effect since there is no higher authority than God’s Word? To state it another way, can oral teachings actually and really be equal to God’s word without actually and really being God’s word?

 

[Beth_Martin]

Throughout salvation history God worked through people, rarely did he act on His own. The Bible did not drop from the sky one day. The first ones certainly weren’t in English.
Since you are not the Holy Spirit, why should I accept your interpretation?

You shouldn’t; you should be able on your own to test what I say against the Word of God, which no one can unless they have received the Holy Spirit who leads all true believers to the truth of the Scriptures, but it is not magic for all Christians are at a different place in their walk. Many are Christians for years and are still drinking milk rather than helping others grow as Paul spoke of. From what I understand here; you are not allowed to understand except through which the magesterium tells you.

Most people I know rarely read their Bible and even fewer put much effort into understanding what they read and therefore cannot defend their faith or give a solid answer for the Hope that is in them as Scripture commands. Many are afraid to even talk about the things of God because they are either not Christians or they are so weak in their faith they know little to nothing concerning Scripture and are uncomfortable speaking about things they are not familiar with.

When you meet the very few that read and study on a daily or routine basis it is a joyous meeting and few there are few disagreements on doctrine and the ones that you may disagree on are always minor things. Seems to be one of the commands in Scripture that people seem to overlook probably because they do not read it to see the commands much less take it to heart.

 

[Beth_Martin]

I guess the Holy Spirit told you to say this to me?? And by the way, since the Holy Spirit is the only one who can interpret the Bible, just where do you fit in? Do you have some papers or something? You are only expounding your very own personal interpretation, and surely the Holy Spirit would have stopped you before you made that remark about which forum I should visit…

Sherry,
Do you understand what apologetics is? (The branch of theology that is concerned with the defense of Christian doctrines - oversimplified) Here is your chance to add something of substance. Where in the Bible does God say the Holy spirit leads individuals into the truth concerning the things of God? Where in the Bible does God say the magesterium has exclusivity regarding the Holy Spirit and the things of God?

 

[EDWARDJL]

Hello Edward,
You made many legitimate points; albeit oversimplified due to the limited time and space that would be needed to expound on all these things.

I have a question for you. Since Catholicism puts her oral traditions on “equal” par with God’s Word as you noted, what is the real effect since there is no higher authority than God’s Word? To state it another way, can oral teachings actually and really be equal to God’s word without actually and really being God’s word?

Hi Beth,

The way I heard it explained by top Catholic apologists like Patrick Madrid, is that tradition is broken down into two areas. Big “T” and little “t”. Tradition with a small “t” is described as customs, or things that can change over time. For example, eating meat on Friday, whether the Mass is in Latin or English, etc. These are not put on a level with sacred scripture.

Tradition with a big “T” are more accurately described as “deposits of faith”. These are teachings handed down from Jesus to his apostles, which may not be explicitly taught in the Bible. By its very nature, these can not change. The logic is that Jesus taught this, he is God. The writers of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Sprit, who is also God. What Jesus taught orally, should have equal weight with scripture. To me, that makes sense, in that context.

The part that seems perplexing to me is taking a look at what the Church calls tradition with a small “t”. Let take, eating meat on Friday. Prior to Vatican II, Catholics were not allowed to eat meat on Friday. Now it is only during Lent that they are required to refrain from eating meat on Friday. If a Catholic ate meat on any Friday, without a legitimate reason, prior to Vatican II, it was considered a mortal sin. Catholic teaching states that you must die in a state of grace, to go to heaven (or purgatory). If you die with unconfessed mortal sin, you will go to hell.

Today, you can eat meat on any Friday, as long as it is not during lent. Why is this? This seems to contradict the teaching that tradition with a small “t” is not as binding as the Bible. The Bible says we a free to eat all foods. The question for Catholics become, if the Bible does not prohibit something, such as eating meat on Friday, but the Church requires this. Is this a grave sin? Most non-Catholics would say no. My understanding is that the Catholic Church would say yes. Because you are disobeying an official teaching of the Church. Willful and direct violation of this can, and will, constitute mortal sin.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Regardless it is A Your denomination doesn’t go back to the day of pentecost. Its at least 1500 years shy. OOOPS, doesn’t look like your denomination is that church does it?
Care to give chapter and verse? I ask that because the book of Acts speaks of the church as already present

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
[Mt 15:9]

You want to turn a blind eye to the continuing division of protestantism because you cannot deny it is happening.

If you look at the top right hand corner of this post you will see “Christian”. ***“And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians *in Antioch.” ** -Acts 11

Will you believe what you are getting ready to read?

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ - if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. 18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. 19 ***For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; ***20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. ------- Romans 8

There is so much wonder, joy, peace and security in these verses and this chapter and in this Book of Romans. Just brings joy to my heart knowing God the Father is my Father and that I am joint heirs with His Son; isn’t that just fantastic?

 

[Beth_Martin]

How about you answer the question for me. In the days of the Apostles, would you consider anyone Christians who only submitted to half of their teachings and said “Meh, I don’t believe it” to the rest?

Deciding who is a Christian is Gods sovereign choice. But if they denied the gospel, then they are bound to their sin and vice versa. I’ll let you slip away from answer about who is deemed a Catholic and how that is measured in submission of the Pope since a vast majority pick and choose what they will accept and what they won’t.

They would ask you the same thing Beth. They’re sola Scriptura like yourself remember. What right do you have to preach to them that they’re wrong since you both believe you’re guided by the Holy Spirit when you read your Bible? And I’ll ask again. Who’s going to decide which side gets the heresy label and which doesn’t?

You can if you like; I don’t know them and I can’t talk to them, so you make the call. I was speaking to a person yesterday with the title of “pastor” and he said that we needed to be water baptized to have “assurance”. So I asked him if his church taught baptism is necessary for salvation and he replied that it is safe to be water baptized since Scitpure does not teach assurance. So I showed him a couple of places in Scripture where it is crystal clear and he thanked me for showing this to him and I believe he was a little embarrassed at the same time. He was not a senior pastor.

This is what happens when you start from one erroneous belief, then proceed to use it to dictate to you what other verses are telling you thereby creating a mess for yourself. Everything you said above is not Biblical and has been proven by many others on here Biblically.

Already refuted. We can do this circular dance forever if you like. It’s not going to make it any more true than when you tried it the first time.

Can’t refute the truth of God can you?

Already explained why. I’ll try to say it again so you may better understand it this time. He starts off by stating that Baptism now saves. But he wants to make sure we understand that it’s not the water that does this by itself when He says the “Not the removal of dirt from the flesh” part which is what ordinary water does. He then goes on to explain that it’s your conscience working with Christ first and foremost. THIS is what initiates it. THIS is what conveys the Salvic Graces of the Cross through the element of water. And again, we know water is a must because again, he started off by saying Baptism now saves.

Interesting exegesis of the passage. Can you verify that from another part of Scripture as I did? No you cannot.

And nobody I know in the OT ever believed in Jesus yet it’s apparent according to you, it’s necessary nowadays. Same with Baptism. I guess things change huh.

Things change from a mans perspective, but God does not change.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; " No no one understood; except for all the OT saints, but the religious rulers and their disciples did not get it.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi Beth,

The way I heard it explained by top Catholic apologists like Patrick Madrid, is that tradition is broken down into two areas. Big “T” and little “t”. Tradition with a small “t” is described as customs, or things that can change over time. For example, eating meat on Friday, whether the Mass is in Latin or English, etc. These are not put on a level with sacred scripture.

Tradition with a big “T” are more accurately described as “deposits of faith”. These are teachings handed down from Jesus to his apostles, which may not be explicitly taught in the Bible. By its very nature, these can not change. The logic is that Jesus taught this, he is God. The writers of the Bible were inspired by the Holy Sprit, who is also God. What Jesus taught orally, should have equal weight with scripture. To me, that makes sense, in that context.

The part that seems perplexing to me is taking a look at what the Church calls tradition with a small “t”. Let take, eating meat on Friday. Prior to Vatican II, Catholics were not allowed to eat meat on Friday. Now it is only during Lent that they are required to refrain from eating meat on Friday. If a Catholic ate meat on any Friday, without a legitimate reason, prior to Vatican II, it was considered a mortal sin. Catholic teaching states that you must die in a state of grace, to go to heaven (or purgatory). If you die with unconfessed mortal sin, you will go to hell.

Today, you can eat meat on any Friday, as long as it is not during lent. Why is this? This seems to contradict the teaching that tradition with a small “t” is not as binding as the Bible. The Bible says we a free to eat all foods. The question for Catholics become, if the Bible does not prohibit something, such as eating meat on Friday, but the Church requires this. Is this a grave sin? Most non-Catholics would say no. My understanding is that the Catholic Church would say yes. Because you are disobeying an official teaching of the Church. Willful and direct violation of this can, and will, constitute mortal sin.

So Edward, what is the effect of “tradition of the Catholic church” being equal to Scripture unless it is the word of God. Is it the word of God and if not, then how could it in effect be an equal authority?

Thanks for the other explanation, but I’m seeing which side of the fence you are personally on. I’m putting you on the spot so to speak.

God bless you and I understand if you choose to not reveal your position.

Beth

 

[NewsTheMan]

How far does the ignorance argument go?

Are Muslims saved? They have an understanding of Christ, yet they call him a prophet? Are they saved?

 

[Des]

Deciding who is a Christian is Gods sovereign choice.
But if they denied the gospel, then they are bound to their sin and vice versa.

Which leads to my next question. What Gospel are we talking about exactly? Believe and you’re saved only? How about if they embraced divorce under all circumstances or homosexuality or premarital relations even if Jesus told them straight to their face not to? Would He then approve of their opinion and call them part of the fold?

To answer your question, how can someone be Catholic (Submit to the Dogmatic teachings of the Church) yet reject them at the same time? So no, in their hearts they have separated from Her for their own human reasoning and intellect.

I’ll let you slip away from answer about who is deemed a Catholic and how that is measured in submission of the Pope since a vast majority pick and choose what they will accept and what they won’t.

They’re called cafeteria Catholics and have chosen to obey their own wisdom over their Church’s. And unlike you and your sola Scripture brethren, they actually know what they’re ‘SUPPOSED’ to believe to be Catholic but reject it. You’re a perfect example actually of how a fanatical non denominational protestant acts. Where it’s only YOU who have a direct line to the Holy Spirit when it comes to His Written Word. If anyone should differ or contradict what you believe to be true, then they are being mislead. It’s quite the spectacle actually.

You can if you like; I don’t know them and I can’t talk to them, so you make the call. I was speaking to a person yesterday with the title of “pastor” and he said that we needed to be water baptized to have “assurance”. So I asked him if his church taught baptism is necessary for salvation and he replied that it is safe to be water baptized since Scitpure does not teach assurance. So I showed him a couple of places in Scripture where it is crystal clear and he thanked me for showing this to him and I believe he was a little embarrassed at the same time. He was not a senior pastor.

Ah, your simple little passages have been overlooked even by Pastors. You’ve shown him the light huh. And if anyone disagrees, they do not know the Word of God like you do.

Can’t refute the truth of God can you?

It’s only your truth Beth. Not God’s.

Interesting exegesis of the passage. Can you verify that from another part of Scripture as I did? No you cannot.

Oh but you did not did you. You merely made up a big story about what the word Water in Noah’s case meant when in fact it was equating it to the very same type of water from which one is saved during Baptism. Sometimes Beth, a verse is quite easy to read if you leave out your prejudice.

In Mark 16:16 Jesus says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

So again, that belief in Christ that comes after searching your conscience is connected to Baptism. And without it, it’s merits nothing. Just water washing away dirt.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; "

No no one understood; except for all the OT saints, but the religious rulers and their disciples did not get it.

It says the verses Testified about Him. Not that the writers knew explicitly who He was. If they knew exactly who He was, they would have made it just a liiiiitle bit clearer for the rest don’t you think.

 

[fxcc]

The Holy Spirit is the only authorized interpreter of Scripture and He is given to those who walk by faith and not by sight.

Actually, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey!

“We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him.” Acts 5:32.

Just as one cannot love God without loving one’s neighbour, so too one cannot claim to obey God without heeding the voice of the Church (meaning **specifically **the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church) which the Son of God deemed necessary to found as the “pillar and bulwark” of His truth and which He deemed necessary to commission to go and teach all nations. And, no obedience = no Holy Spirit! (“He who despises you, despises me!”)

Indeed this is such a self evident truth. All “non-Catholic Christian” group claim the inspiration of the Holy Spirit when they resort to private interpretation of Scripture (refusing to accept the one true Church’s interpretation of it) yet among these 30,000+ groups, denominations, sects and “churches” … all one finds is doctrinal chaos, conflict, confusion and contradiction! You name it, no matter how hideously contradictory to the letter and spirit of the Law, some group or other preaches it - always with Bible in sweaty palm, rat-a-tat-tat verbiage on tongue, and - you guessed it! - the Holy Spirit hovering dutifully overhead! Something doesn’t quite add up, wouldn’t you say?

Sorry brethren, the Holy Spirit is very clearly and demonstrably **not **given to those who disobey, those who dispute, those who rebel, those who protest, those who cause scandal, those who label the Vicar of Christ an anti-Christ, and the Church which he is divinely ordained to lead, a whore of Babylon. It is not in the Catholic Church that we hear a telltale cacophony of confused, conflicting and contradictory voices, it is outside of it. For 2000 years the Holy Spirit has been very consistently making His preferred abode, and His guidance regarding the immutable meaning of God’s Word, clearly known to all!

The good news is no lie (no matter how disingeniously or tenuously defended, or for however long) lasts forever The good news is that the Father has heard His Son’s High Priestly prayer for Christian unity and He will indeed answer it in good time. The **good **news is the world will eventually behold a unified Body of Christ, with a single and immutable faith, based on truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth… and then the world will believe!

Pace e Bene,

Francis

 

[Sherry_G]

Sherry,
Do you understand what apologetics is? (The branch of theology that is concerned with the defense of Christian doctrines - oversimplified) Here is your chance to add something of substance. Where in the Bible does God say the Holy spirit leads individuals into the truth concerning the things of God? Where in the Bible does God say the magesterium has exclusivity regarding the Holy Spirit and the things of God?

Why thank you!! This is my big chance so here goes:
Acts Ch 1; v 8 Jesus Himself states that these chosen Apostles of His will receive power thru the Holy Spirit so that they can be witnesses to the ends of the earth. This was definitely Jesus’ plan that you are so feverishly disputing. There was a hierarchy put in place by the Lord Jesus that would stand until He comes again.

Acts Ch 2; v1 - 12 The Holy Spirit imbued all the eleven Apostles appointed by Christ Himself with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that they would have the abilities they needed to spread the faith far and wide which they have done so well for 2000 years through Apostolic succession. Peter as their head (the first Pope) did officially direct the others to appoint a 12th Apostle since Jesus had set things up that way.

1 Corinthians Ch 4; 14-17 Paul refers to his own fatherhood to the faithful and his teaching in the church. But, look another verse further as in v 18 he cautions against those inflated with pride such as yourself, Beth.

Acts 8; v 27-31 where the Ethiopian was indeed reading OT Scripture (Isaiah) and confessed that he needed a teacher (Church) . Just a few verses later, Philip baptized him in the waters alongside the road (Church function).

I always follow the Apologetics forums so I can LEARN from those who are more gifted than I in Church teachings. That is the only difference between you and I. I KNOW that I don’t KNOW everything. I do have a very strong faith and know with a certainty that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Chuch is where I belong and I thank God for the incredible gift He has given me.

 

[inkaneer]

I was providing a rebuttle to your claim that Paul did not proclaim the gospel in the Bible, then above you deny it again. What is the gospel in your world?

Trying to create a strawman are you? The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you go back to your post #520 you said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” I then showed that Paul’s writing did not contain the beatitudes which are definitely a part of the gospel that Jesus preached. Now I am sure that Paul preached the beatitudes he just didn’t write about them. So obviously there is part of the gospel not contained in Paul’s writings.

Paul never said implicitly or explicitly that there was more “gospel” and neither did any other writer, but there are severe warnings to those who would add to the Scriptures. Paul did say he preached the gospel time and time again. Just as extra revelations have divided your church even down to how the Mass should be performed. Division has always been used by God to keep the pure gospel in tact and as time moves forward you will see more and more divisions as satan and ungodly men continue to infiltrate the church just as it did from the very beginning.

No, none of the scripture writers said there was more gospel. Of course though you do know that Jesus told the Apostles, as recorded in John 16:12:

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [John 16:12]

Scripture does not record when they could bear them. Was it before the Apostles died? Was it before they wrote scripture. Unfortunately the scriptures are silent as to when these things will be told to the church. Some things we know will never be told such as when the Second Coming will occur. But there were some things that obviously were not told to the Apostles. One example is the Trinity. Our understanding of the Trinity does not come from scripture. It comes from the church in the fifth century. The Trinity is understood by christians [those who are trinitarian] both then and today in terms that come from Greek philospophy and not from scripture. Such things as essence as substance are totally foreign to the scriptures and Jewish philosophical thought.

I’ll leave you with one passage for you to dwell on.

1 Corinthians 1:17-31
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 ***For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, ***24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

Yeah, so what? Just another strawman argument to try to deflect attention away from the fact that you were wrong when you said, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” But this quote from scripture actually works against you because in it Paul states very clearly that he was sent to PREACH the gospel and NOT TO WRITE IT. So Paul’s writings do not contain the full gospel like I said previously.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Regardless it is A Your denomination doesn’t go back to the day of pentecost. Its at least 1500 years shy. OOOPS, doesn’t look like your denomination is that church does it?
Care to give chapter and verse? I ask that because the book of Acts speaks of the church as already present

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
[Mt 15:9]

You want to turn a blind eye to the continuing division of protestantism because you cannot deny it is happening.

If you look at the top right hand corner of this post you will see “Christian”. ***“And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians ***in Antioch.” -Acts 11

Yes and it was also the bishop of Antioch who in 110 AD gave the name the Catholic Church to these Christians. He took it from scripture, the Book of Acts to be exact. And that is how the only Church that Jesus established became known as the Catholic Church.

Will you believe what you are getting ready to read?

For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ - if, in fact, we suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him. 18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory about to be revealed to us. 19 ***For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the children of God; ***20 for the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and will obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in labor pains until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what is seen? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience. ------- Romans 8

There is so much wonder, joy, peace and security in these verses and this chapter and in this Book of Romans. Just brings joy to my heart knowing God the Father is my Father and that I am joint heirs with His Son; isn’t that just fantastic?

Yeah, now if only you were in the one Church established by Jesus your joy would be complete.

 

[davidv]

You shouldn’t; you should be able on your own to test what I say against the Word of God, which no one can unless they have received the Holy Spirit who leads all true believers to the truth of the Scriptures, but it is not magic for all Christians are at a different place in their walk. Many are Christians for years and are still drinking milk rather than helping others grow as Paul spoke of. From what I understand here; you are not allowed to understand except through which the magesterium tells you.

You don’t understand. If my understanding is contrary to Church teaching, then I know my understanding is faulty. How do I know this? I am a finite, limited creature. The Church is the Body of Christ. Which one is going to be correct? Not me.

Most people I know rarely read their Bible and even fewer put much effort into understanding what they read and therefore cannot defend their faith or give a solid answer for the Hope that is in them as Scripture commands. Many are afraid to even talk about the things of God because they are either not Christians or they are so weak in their faith they know little to nothing concerning Scripture and are uncomfortable speaking about things they are not familiar with.

Am I in this same category? How do you know?

When you meet the very few that read and study on a daily or routine basis it is a joyous meeting and few there are few disagreements on doctrine and the ones that you may disagree on are always minor things. Seems to be one of the commands in Scripture that people seem to overlook probably because they do not read it to see the commands much less take it to heart.

You don’t seem very joyful in meeting me. I read the Bible daily. I have attended 10 years of formal Bible Study. Sounds like you are jumping to a conclusion without a reasonably basis.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Which leads to my next question. What Gospel are we talking about exactly? Believe and you’re saved only? How about if they embraced divorce under all circumstances or homosexuality or premarital relations even if Jesus told them straight to their face not to? Would He then approve of their opinion and call them part of the fold?

But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. ------- This is the gospel of the Christians salvation. Water baptism is ones open confession of His death burial and resurrection------Romans 10

Here is another example

23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. —Romans 4

Here is an example from Peter

3 ***Blessed be the God and Father ***of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy ***has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ***4 to {obtain} an inheritance {which is} imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

This is Peter iterating God’s sovereignty in salvation “He caused us to be born again” and the perseverance is also the work of God “protected by the power of God through FAITH” and the last sentence is the bride which is yet to be revealed.

You’re a perfect example actually of how a fanatical non denominational protestant acts. Where it’s only YOU who have a direct line to the Holy Spirit when it comes to His Written Word. If anyone should differ or contradict what you believe to be true, then they are being mislead. It’s quite the spectacle actually.

Getting a little testy and of course ALL Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; is that a direct line or what?. It will be a spectable at the great white throne, but I will not be there.

Oh but you did not did you. You merely made up a big story about what the word Water in Noah’s case meant when in fact it was equating it to the very same type of water from which one is saved during Baptism. Sometimes Beth, a verse is quite easy to read if you leave out your prejudice.

Sure I did, but you are unable to bear the truth. I showed it from Peter, from Isaiah and from Genesis, but your frustration due to a lack of understanding causes you to slander me.

In Mark 16:16 Jesus says, “He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.”

See Romans 10:10, the baptism is the outward profession of the mouth which identifies the inward faith in Christ. But your understanding of the gospel is different than mine.

So again, that belief in Christ that comes after searching your conscience is connected to Baptism. And without it, it’s merits nothing. Just water washing away dirt.

There is the whole issue, you cannot merit anythng before God as you would like to; God counts it as debt as He has said.
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,-------- Romans 4

It says the verses Testified about Him. Not that the writers knew explicitly who He was. If they knew exactly who He was, they would have made it just a liiiiitle bit clearer for the rest don’t you think.

Some did recognize Him and are in heaven; read Hebrews 11 to get to know a few of them. You seem to think that God is not totally sovereign when it comes to salvation. A careful study of Jesus prayer in John 17 gives some clear insight about salvation and how it is determined and when it was determined.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Actually, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey!

"We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him." Acts 5:32.

Francis

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians

in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. ----Galatians

The point is the person who is of faith is the Christian, which is what I am referring to.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all

Salvation is my favorite subject…Here is my firm belief …I am open to any comments anyone may have…

if you are like me, hasn’t everyone sinned at one time or another
by telling a lie, stealing something, lusting over another person or cursed against God?

of course we have…this is bad news because the bible says … because of our sin,
we CAN NOT go to heaven …however, there is good news …

God, because He loves you and I, provided the ONE AND ONLY WAY for you to be with Him in heaven …

…2000 years ago God made Himself human and walked the earth in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching and healing which caused a lot of people to believe in
him…

…however, there were many who did not believe who Jesus claimed to be (the Messiah, the Son of God). and they shouted out for Jesus to be crucified to a cross.

…Before being crucified, Jesus was beaten, tortured and flogged.
In Jesus’s death on the cross He, being a sinless man, took upon Himself all the sins
you and I ever committed or will commit.

…so instead of you having to pay the punishment (hell) for our sin,
Jesus took our place and died for us so we would not have to be punished forever.

…the bible comfirms this…

…For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
… John 3:16

Belief is the first step, however just believing God does not forgive your sin.
the bible also says you must confess your sin

…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved…
Romans 10:9

also…you will need to repent

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’
For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Matthew 9:13

the only way to be forgiven of our sin is by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ
dying on the cross…

…Jesus said … “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me
John 14:6

there is no other way for our sin to be forgiven

we must believe, trust in Jesus, confess and repent

God bless