Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[Beth_Martin]

Why thank you!! This is my big chance so here goes:
Acts Ch 1; v 8 Jesus Himself states that these chosen Apostles of His will receive power thru the Holy Spirit so that they can be witnesses to the ends of the earth. This was definitely Jesus’ plan that you are so feverishly disputing. There was a hierarchy put in place by the Lord Jesus that would stand until He comes again.

Acts Ch 2; v1 - 12 The Holy Spirit imbued all the eleven Apostles appointed by Christ Himself with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that they would have the abilities they needed to spread the faith far and wide which they have done so well for 2000 years through Apostolic succession. Peter as their head (the first Pope) did officially direct the others to appoint a 12th Apostle since Jesus had set things up that way.

Except apostolic succession is not taught in Scripture anywhere; so you are imposing on the text to fit your beliefs, which is fine as long as you recognize that is what you are doing.

1 Corinthians Ch 4; 14-17 Paul refers to his own fatherhood to the faithful and his teaching in the church. But, look another verse further as in v 18 he cautions against those inflated with pride such as yourself, Beth.

Keep trying you will get better; you have no Scriptural context or understanding because you do not see the picture of Paul’s love for the Corinthian church as he poured himself so much into this church and they were wayward children, so to speak. There is no joy in seeing people misunderstand and not divide the Word of God correctly; it is the opposite it brings sorrow.

Acts 8; v 27-31 where the Ethiopian was indeed reading OT Scripture (Isaiah) and confessed that he needed a teacher (Church) . Just a few verses later, Philip baptized him in the waters alongside the road (Church function).

Who is the teacher? The man or the Holy Spirit working through the man? See the point?

I always follow the Apologetics forums so I can LEARN from those who are more gifted than I in Church teachings. That is the only difference between you and I. I KNOW that I don’t KNOW everything. I do have a very strong faith and know with a certainty that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Chuch is where I belong and I thank God for the incredible gift He has given me.

You are the one who claims I know everything; I never made that claim and it would be a foolish claim at best. I’m sure if you were honest in looking at the subscription that you will find I have been slandered over and over, including by yourself, yet I have not personnally attacked anyone that I am aware of. You may consider the fact that I suggested you go to a different forumn as slander, but that is not the intent because I was serious based on the fact that you were giving your reason why anyone should be in this apologetic forum. This did not accord with the apolgetics forum, which is why I then provided the definition in a simplified form.

I’m glad you are happy with your faith in the Catholic church and it is good that you are learning to defend your faith; that is what I am doing as well. Defending my faith in God and the Scriptures. This is a win win for everyone or at least it should be since the questions and issues cause us to look more deeply into what we believe and why we believe them. We may disagree on most things, but that should not distract from positives that we are growing stronger in our convictions and our abilities to defend concerning our faith.

May God bless you Sherry!!

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

Trying to create a strawman are you? The issue is, did the writings of Paul contain the full gospel? I said the writings of paul were rememdial and did not contain the entire gospel. If you go back to your post #520 you said this to me, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” I then showed that Paul’s writing did not contain the beatitudes which are definitely a part of the gospel that Jesus preached. Now I am sure that Paul preached the beatitudes he just didn’t write about them. So obviously there is part of the gospel not contained in Paul’s writings.

Explain the gospel to me please? What is the good news? Is it the beattitudes? You obviously do not know so I would probably just not even attempt and just call it “straw-man”; it is much easier to say when you do not understand.

No, none of the scripture writers said there was more gospel. Of course though you do know that Jesus told the Apostles, as recorded in John 16:12:

"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. [John 16:12]

Jesus answered the question, but at the time they, the Apostles were not ready to hear everything especially about the fact He was going to Jersusalem to die among other things.

Joh 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you. ------- John 16

If you would have kept reading and associated with what Jesus had already told them, then you would have had your answer.

Our understanding of the Trinity does not come from scripture. It comes from the church in the fifth century. The Trinity is understood by christians [those who are trinitarian] both then and today in terms that come from Greek philospophy and not from scripture. Such things as essence as substance are totally foreign to the scriptures and Jewish philosophical thought.

No one can fully understand the Trinitarian nature of God because it is beyond our understanding, but Scripture does not hide it either. In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Name entails all the attributes and character of a person; yet this statement gives 3 persons in one sigular Name; so the Trinity is there just by the gramattical construction and if you seek the Scriptures for the attributes and character of all 3, then you get the sum total, which is way beyond human understanding. If you see Jesus Baptism you will see all 3 at work. So nothing is hidden.

Yeah, so what? Just another strawman argument to try to deflect attention away from the fact that you were wrong when you said, “If you claim as you did that the writings of Paul do not contain the full gospel, then you are spiritually appraised and know not the gospel.” But this quote from scripture actually works against you because in it Paul states very clearly that he was sent to PREACH the gospel and NOT TO WRITE IT. So Paul’s writings do not contain the full gospel like I said previously.

No one has proven me wrong as of yet and when I am wrong I count it as joy because something new has been given to me by God concerning Him.

I wish you well in your walk of faith.

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Regardless it is A Your denomination doesn’t go back to the day of pentecost. Its at least 1500 years shy. OOOPS, doesn’t look like your denomination is that church does it?
Care to give chapter and verse? I ask that because the book of Acts speaks of the church as already present

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
[Mt 15:9]

You want to turn a blind eye to the continuing division of protestantism because you cannot deny it is happening.

Yes and it was also the bishop of Antioch who in 110 AD gave the name the Catholic Church to these Christians. He took it from scripture, the Book of Acts to be exact. And that is how the only Church that Jesus established became known as the Catholic Church.

Yeah, now if only you were in the one Church established by Jesus your joy would be complete.

Is no comment a comment? No comment.

 

[inkaneer]

Except apostolic succession is not taught in Scripture anywhere; so you are imposing on the text to fit your beliefs, which is fine as long as you recognize that is what you are doing.

Are you sure about that? I think it is covered quite well in the first chapter of Acts when Matthias was selected as Judas’ successor.

Keep trying you will get better; you have no Scriptural context or understanding because you do not see the picture of Paul’s love for the Corinthian church as he poured himself so much into this church and they were wayward children, so to speak. There is no joy in seeing people misunderstand and not divide the Word of God correctly; it is the opposite it brings sorrow.

Actually it is you who have no scriptural context. I find that ironic that the sola scripturist is the one whose position is not supported by scripture.

 

[inkaneer]

Originally Posted by inkaneer
Regardless it is A Your denomination doesn’t go back to the day of pentecost. Its at least 1500 years shy. OOOPS, doesn’t look like your denomination is that church does it?
Care to give chapter and verse? I ask that because the book of Acts speaks of the church as already present

“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”
[Mt 15:9]

You want to turn a blind eye to the continuing division of protestantism because you cannot deny it is happening.

Yes and it was also the bishop of Antioch who in 110 AD gave the name the Catholic Church to these Christians. He took it from scripture, the Book of Acts to be exact. And that is how the only Church that Jesus established became known as the Catholic Church.

Yeah, now if only you were in the one Church established by Jesus your joy would be complete.

Is no comment a comment? No comment.

I guess you can’t really comment on anything you can’t truthfully refute. So your “no comment” comment speaks volumes. Thank you.

 

[fxcc]

This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians

I received the Holy Spirit when (as an infant), I was baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This initiated the indwelling of *all *three persons of the Holy Trinity in my soul. Later, when I received the Sacrament of Confirmation, I was anointed with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to fortify my faith and facilitate my mission to preach Christ.

By the way, my reception of the Holy Spirit is not a one-off thing. I receive Him anew (in greater measure) every time I receive a Sacrament worthily. His presence in me also increases (even as I decrease) each time I pray. Conversely, every time I fall into serious sin, I increase, and I lose His presence, as indeed I lose the presence of the Father and the Son in me. Given that I wax hot and cold (alternate between sinfulness and holiness) it would be foolish/presumptious of me to rely on my ability to interpret Scripture personally for myself, let alone try to “sell” those interpretations to others, at least not unless I could find a way to remain always in God’s friendship (i.e. always and ever in the presence of the Spirit). I rely therefore on the infallibility of understanding and teaching of the Church, which derives from her holiness, with Christ Himself at her head.

“For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.” Wisdom 1:4

I, for one, am happy to acknowledge that I am “a body subject to sins”, and therefore must rely on the wisdom of the Church. The Church, of course, not some wishy washy loose community of believers, marked by disunity, conflict and confusion.

 

[Des]

But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”–that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. ------- This is the gospel of the Christians salvation. Water baptism is ones open confession of His death burial and resurrection------Romans 10

You just did a wonderful job of skipping my question. I asked you straight out. Would Jesus accept those who disobey Him to His face by denying half the things He told them to do so long as they believed in Him? Answer that question properly and you’ll have answered your own question to me when you asked how much one has to submit to Christ’s Church, in order to be a Catholic.

Oh and when one confesses with their mouth, they are submitting to the entire doctrine of God. One of these doctrines being Baptism that immediately follows your confession of faith. Your quote simply refers to a person who has looked at his conscience within, and knows what he’s about to do. It’s called Baptism of desire.
Another Doctrine of the Church that fits perfectly with the passage.

Matt: 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Here is another example

23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 {He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. —Romans 4

You sure about that? OSAS seems to be heresy according to this verse. Unless of course you do not sin?

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Getting a little testy and of course ALL Christians have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; is that a direct line or what?.

So you’re telling me that anyone who disagrees with your OSAS doctrine are not Christians? Sure sounds like it. But in reality, you just aren’t qualified in giving a nice sound rebuttal. You’d rather just hammer out verses and hope they change the subject.

Sure I did, but you are unable to bear the truth. I showed it from Peter, from Isaiah and from Genesis, but your frustration due to a lack of understanding causes you to slander me.

If I have any frutration, it’s trying to deal with the way you try to smash the pieces of the Bible together to fit your own theology.

See Romans 10:10, the baptism is the outward profession of the mouth which identifies the inward faith in Christ. But your understanding of the gospel is different than mine.

The Church agrees. However, the element of water is also a must.

There is the whole issue, you cannot merit anythng before God as you would like to; God counts it as debt as He has said.

Unless you’re a little robot, your faith is something you grabbed onto with your own free will. God can’t force it on you.

Some did recognize Him and are in heaven; read Hebrews 11 to get to know a few of them. You seem to think that God is not totally sovereign when it comes to salvation. A careful study of Jesus prayer in John 17 gives some clear insight about salvation and how it is determined and when it was determined.

Originally, we were talking about ALL the Saints of the Old Testament. Now you’re changing it to some of them.

 

[Beth_Martin]

You don’t understand. If my understanding is contrary to Church teaching, then I know my understanding is faulty. How do I know this? I am a finite, limited creature. The Church is the Body of Christ. Which one is going to be correct? Not me.

If my understanding is contrary to the Scriptures, then I know my understanding is faulty for the Scriptures are from God and God is not the God that contradicts Himself. I also know I will never in my lifetime understand all that could be understood because I am a finitie mind attempting to understand the infinite mind of God through the stains of sin. But with much effort; I have been able to and continue to be as Jesus said “santified by His truth”—paraphrasing.

Am I in this same category? How do you know?

You don’t seem very joyful in meeting me. I read the Bible daily. I have attended 10 years of formal Bible Study. Sounds like you are jumping to a conclusion without a reasonably basis.

I have never met you or spent time with you so I do not know you except for these few posts. I did not jump to any conclusions that were specific to you; it was a general statement and the statement is based on my own personal experiences. My husband and I were speaking of this topic last night about how Christians are intimidated in speaking about the Bible because of many reasons, one being they lack sufficient knowledge to engage in meaningful dialogue. People like to talk about things they are both interested in and have knowledge about. It is human nature.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi all

Salvation is my favorite subject…Here is my firm belief …I am open to any comments anyone may have…

if you are like me, hasn’t everyone sinned at one time or another
by telling a lie, stealing something, lusting over another person or cursed against God?

of course we have…this is bad news because the bible says … because of our sin,
we CAN NOT go to heaven …however, there is good news …

God, because He loves you and I, provided the ONE AND ONLY WAY for you to be with Him in heaven …

…2000 years ago God made Himself human and walked the earth in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching and healing which caused a lot of people to believe in
him…

…however, there were many who did not believe who Jesus claimed to be (the Messiah, the Son of God). and they shouted out for Jesus to be crucified to a cross.

…Before being crucified, Jesus was beaten, tortured and flogged.
In Jesus’s death on the cross He, being a sinless man, took upon Himself all the sins
you and I ever committed or will commit.

…so instead of you having to pay the punishment (hell) for our sin,
Jesus took our place and died for us so we would not have to be punished forever.

…the bible comfirms this…

…For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life
… John 3:16

Belief is the first step, however just believing God does not forgive your sin.
the bible also says you must confess your sin

…that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead,
you will be saved…
Romans 10:9

also…you will need to repent

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’
For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Matthew 9:13

the only way to be forgiven of our sin is by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ
dying on the cross…

…Jesus said … “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me
John 14:6

there is no other way for our sin to be forgiven

we must believe, trust in Jesus, confess and repent

God bless

There is the gospel of our salvation, first to the Jew, then to the gentiles. All of God by His divine grace, mercy, and love by faith in Him to those that believe on Jesus and confess that belief that He indeed died for our atonement and was resurrected as Gods stamp of approval and proof to us that walk by faith that what He says is true.

What was Jesus message to the Pharasees, Scribes and religious rulers, that their traditions, great in number, were not only a heavy burden on the people, but hindered them from entering the Kingdom because rather than focusing on walking by faith and following the spirit of the law, they were focusing on all the external rites and traditions. For example, instead of taking care of their parents in their old age; sorry mom and dad but we made a vow with God (corbin) and this belongs to the Lord. Of course that means they kept and used what they had with the promise to leave what remained to the Lord while leaving mom and dad to suffer; they broke the command to honor their parents by the traditions they created. This is why Jesus gave such a blistering condemnation to those Jews, but as He also said, it was by His doing that they crucified the God of glory. The Jews had a rite or tradition for everything and so much focus was put on that, it smothered the true faith that comes from the inside and not the outside. Clean the cup on the inside and the outside will also become clean. Remember how He and His diciples were admonished by the Pharasees for eating before performing the ceremonial washing; He attacked their traditions time and time again and He ignored those that were added to the law and the prophets and for this they wanted to and did kill Him.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Are you sure about that? I think it is covered quite well in the first chapter of Acts when Matthias was selected as Judas’ successor.

You overlook the details. Who choose Matthias? Men or God? Was it God purpose and plan to use a) 12 and later Paul and b) that Judas Iscariot was to be the son of perdition? So is Paul also a successionary plan? Does a replacement make a sucessionary plan? Does the Bible warn and give the result of not heeding such a warning concerning the paying attention to “successions” of spiritual leaders? What is God’s design and plan for overseers and deacons in the local churchs? In that plan is there sucession as you know and understand? What was the purpose for the pastoral letters? If you are able to search the Scriptures and find that warning, then look at the predicted result of not heeding the warning; it is what we see throughout church history even to this day.

 

[fxcc]

If my understanding is contrary to the Scriptures, then I know my understanding is faulty for the Scriptures are from God and God is not the God that contradicts Himself.

What do you mean by that statement, Beth? I’ve been reading it over and over, trying to make some sense of it!

If your understanding (of Scripture presumably?) is contrary to the (true meaning presumably? of) Scriptures, how would you even know? You refuse to accept any authority such as Apostolic Tradition to inform you or the Magisterium of the Church to teach you (“understandest thou what thou readest?”). You merely claim the Holy Spirit as your personal guide - as does every other person who propounds their own interpretation of a Scripture verse - which might be very different from yours.

So if any of you were off track, how would you even know? How would any of you who reject Church teaching know?

And say, you did discover somehow that your understanding about something had been faulty, what happens then? Remember, all you can do is check your understanding of things, against… well… your own understanding of things!

Frightening, isn’t it?

 

[Beth_Martin]

I received the Holy Spirit when (as an infant), I was baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. This initiated the indwelling of *all *three persons of the Holy Trinity in my soul. Later, when I received the Sacrament of Confirmation, I was anointed with the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to fortify my faith and facilitate my mission to preach Christ.

By the way, my reception of the Holy Spirit is not a one-off thing. I receive Him anew (in greater measure) every time I receive a Sacrament worthily. His presence in me also increases (even as I decrease) each time I pray. Conversely, every time I fall into serious sin, I increase, and I lose His presence, as indeed I lose the presence of the Father and the Son in me. Given that I wax hot and cold (alternate between sinfulness and holiness) it would be foolish/presumptious of me to rely on my ability to interpret Scripture personally for myself, let alone try to “sell” those interpretations to others, at least not unless I could find a way to remain always in God’s friendship (i.e. always and ever in the presence of the Spirit). I rely therefore on the infallibility of understanding and teaching of the Church, which derives from her holiness, with Christ Himself at her head.

“For wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.” Wisdom 1:4

I, for one, am happy to acknowledge that I am “a body subject to sins”, and therefore must rely on the wisdom of the Church. The Church, of course, not some wishy washy loose community of believers, marked by disunity, conflict and confusion.

Is Holy Spirit, which is God, is divided within a Christian? Sin does hinder the work of sanctification within the believer, but it does not remove the “presence”; He is either in you or He is not. What does the phrase “being filled with the Holy Spirit” mean in terms of Scripture? Does it mean that the indwelling is dwelling even harder? or is it a way of saying “I am not hindering the Holy Spirit”?

You all are the only one’s to make such a claim of myself or others of personal interpretation; I have never made such a claim and would never make such a fallacious claim for it is the Holy Spirit that is the true interpreter that dwells in the believer and santifies the believer in HIs truth as I have repeatedly stated because it is what is taught and what is experienced. Jesus said sanctify them in your truth, your word is truth. This applies to all who have believed on the Lord Jesus and confess that Jesus was buried and resurrected from the dead.

Why did Paul commend the bereans? Was it because they did not take what he preached just because he said it, but tested what he taught against what was known to be true, the Scriptures. This is my approach to the word of God.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi all,

I firmly believe that … whether you are catholic or not catholic, had prior exposure to the catholic church or never set foot in a catholic church … Salvation is for all mankind, no exceptions.

According to the bible, God makes it clear that salvaton is a personal choice.

If you are like me, hasn’t everyone sinned at one time or another? Broken at least one of the 10 commandments? i.e. (telling a lie, stealing something, lusting over another person or cursed against God)?

from the above example I am a lying adulterer thief who takes the Lord’s name in vain.

I do not believe there is a perfect sinless human living today or will ever be.
There was only one perfect person…His name Jesus Christ.

Sadly, I have communicated with catholics who argued with me that Jesus was not sinless.
Is there anyone here who believes that. I hope not. Jesus was and is without sin…God in the flesh.

Do you agree Jesus was without sin?

I believe all christians …catholic, baptists, protestant, lutheran, pentecostal, presbyterian etc… all believe the following facts regarding God, Jesus Christ, sin and salvation.

The fact that we all belong to an imperfect sinful world population… is bad news because the bible states, we are all doomed to hell … we must be punished for our sin.

We can not enter heaven with sin …agree?

The good news is…God, because He loves you and I, provided the ONE AND ONLY WAY for us to be with Him in heaven …

2000 years ago God made Himself human and walked the earth in the name of Jesus Christ.
Jesus spent a lot of time teaching and healing which caused a lot of people to believe in
him.

However, there were many who did not believe who Jesus claimed to be (the Messiah, the Son of God) and saw Him as a threat because they were not willing to accept the truth about who Jesus said He was. Thereby, they shouted out for Jesus to be crucified and for Pontius Pilate to release a criminal.

agree?

Before being crucified, Jesus was beaten, tortured and flogged.
In Jesus’s death on the cross He, being a sinless man, took upon Himself all the sins you and I ever committed or will commit.

agree?

So instead of us having to pay the punishment (hell) for our sin,
Jesus took our place and died for us so we would not have to be punished forever.

agree?

…the bible comfirms this…

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Belief is the first step, however just believing God does not forgive your sin.
the bible also says you must confess your sin.

agree?

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

also…you will need to repent
agree?

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Matthew 9:13

The one and only way to be forgiven of our sins is by the blood and sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.

agree?

Jesus said … “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me John 14:6

In summary…If we want to go to heaven and be forgiven of all your sin, there is only ONE way…

Ist … Admit that we are sinners
2nd… Believe, Trust in the promise of God and in the sacrifice of the blood of Jesus Christ
3rd… Confess and repent our sin with sincerity from the bottom of our hearts
4th… Trust Jesus, who now reigns in heaven, to be Lord and saviour of our lives
5th … be in continuing prayer and confession to God, unfortunately we are not perfect and will always stumble (sin) until the day we die on earth

Agree?

Thank God for His loving grace that He is willing to give us 2nd, 3rd, 100, 10 x 10,000 and more chances in life so that we do not have to die a 2nd death and spend eternity in hell for our sin.

The following guidelines are not necessary for salvation. However I believe will help our spiritual growth and relationship with God.

we need to…

Spend some time each day praying and worshipping God.
Daily read the Bible
Begin to develop friendships with sincere Christians
Tell other people about your relationship with God.

Here are a few of my favorite you tube videos…

He knows my name
youtube.com/watch?v=GInxDhcR_O4&feature=related

because He lives
youtube.com/watch?v=MQBBihRwP8o

Martina Mcbride …“anyway”
youtube.com/watch?v=Cr_iNfxZl0I

I pray and hope I will see you all in paradise.

God bless you all

Thank you for your time

mpjw

 

[Beth_Martin]

You just did a wonderful job of skipping my question. I asked you straight out. Would Jesus accept those who disobey Him to His face by denying half the things He told them to do so long as they believed in Him? Answer that question properly and you’ll have answered your own question to me when you asked how much one has to submit to Christ’s Church, in order to be a Catholic.

How could anyone claim to believe and actually and truely believe with the intent of disobedience? They can’t; it is a false profession of belief and Jesus does not accept a false faith.

Faith is also a gift of God.

Oh and when one confesses with their mouth, they are submitting to the entire doctrine of God. One of these doctrines being Baptism that immediately follows your confession of faith. Your quote simply refers to a person who has looked at his conscience within, and knows what he’s about to do. It’s called Baptism of desire.

Water baptism is an act of obedience and does not save.

Another Doctrine of the Church that fits perfectly with the passage.

From what all of you have posted, this doctrine is true within your faith.

Matt: 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

This is quite true.

You sure about that? OSAS seems to be heresy according to this verse. Unless of course you do not sin?

I am not sure how you define OSAS, but the perseverance of the saints is a gift of God as well so the one that has been sealed by the Holy Spirit till the day of full redemption cannot break the bond and will persever as it is the power of God, not the will or strength of the believer that achieves this.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

So you’re telling me that anyone who disagrees with your OSAS doctrine are not Christians? Sure sounds like it. But in reality, you just aren’t qualified in giving a nice sound rebuttal. You’d rather just hammer out verses and hope they change the subject.

I have no idea who is or is not a Christian, that is Gods choice. Just because you say there is no sound rebuttle is not a sound rebuttle. You have to prove that a claim made and believed to be supported by Scripture is contrary to Scripture.

If I have any frutration, it’s trying to deal with the way you try to smash the pieces of the Bible together to fit your own theology.

The Church agrees. However, the element of water is also a must.

Unless you’re a little robot, your faith is something you grabbed onto with your own free will. God can’t force it on you.

Then God is not sovereign in salvation; I do not know how God justly chooses some and not others and holds that responsibility for rejecting onto the non-Christian or how He gives the gift of faith to believe, but when I do know I will also know it was fair and just.

Peter tells us that faith is also a gift of God.
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, ***To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: ***

Originally, we were talking about ALL the Saints of the Old Testament. Now you’re changing it to some of them.

All saints of the OT or NT are justifed and saved by faith alone in God, Jesus is God. Circumcision of the flesh and water baptism of the flesh in no way adds to salvation; God has purposed it and He has done it.

 

[mpjw2]

my christian brothers and sisters,

in my previous post I expressed what I believe in the bottom of my heart are the simple foundation principles for one to be saved.

Salvation is a choice we make in our walk with God.

If a person sincerely believes in God and in Jesus and confesses and repents and trust Jesus as Lord of their life, God will save that person.

All the other issues where religions contradict each other have no bearing on whether or not God will save a person.

i. e.

I do not believe purgatory exists … catholics do.

The instant we die, I believe we will be in either heaven or hell for eternity…no middle ground.

I look forward to seeing the surprised look on catholics’ faces as they immediately enter heaven when they realize they were on the express and there is in fact no local

Just because I do not believe in purgatory, even if purgatory does exist, will not prevent God from saving me.

do you agree?

God bless,

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

Thank God for the 2 criminals who were crucified with Jesus.

From Luke 23:39-43 we can clearly see what one needs to do to be saved, even up and until ones’ dying breath, God is willing to forgive a sincere believers’ heart, who confesses, and accept them into heaven.

39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”
40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.”
42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

One criminal believed the other believed and confessed
God saved only the one who confesses and expressed His faith in Jesus.

And here lies another debate. The one criminal did not go immediately to heaven because Jesus was not in heaven until some time after. He rose 3 days after dying and then there was the time period until His ascension to heaven.

My friends … Jesus is God in the flesh and God was talking to the criminal, who believed, through Jesus to let him know He is forgiven and to give him assurance and peace at heart that after his suffereng and death on the cross he will immediately be alive in heaven.

Before being crucified, neither criminal had anything to do with religion, they were both destined for hell

We who believe, confess and repent will spend eternity in heaven with the criminal who confessed and believed.

Those people of the world who deny Jesus, unfortunately will spend eternity in hell with the other criminal.

 

[fxcc]

my christian brothers and sisters,

I look forward to seeing the surprised look on catholics’ faces as they immediately enter heaven when they realize they were on the express and there is in fact no local

What if it’s you with the surprised look on your face when you realise you can’t sneak into heaven with sins on your soul and that you might need some cleansing in Purgatory after all?

You quite **correctly **said in your last post that no one can enter heaven with sin, but now it seems you’ve decided there’s some kinda short cut after all - like being “covered by the Blood of Jesus” maybe? … so that your sins suddenly become invisible to the Father?

Oh, whatever…

 

[mpjw2]

There is the gospel of our salvation, first to the Jew, then to the gentiles. All of God by His divine grace, mercy, and love by faith in Him to those that believe on Jesus and confess that belief that He indeed died for our atonement and was resurrected as Gods stamp of approval and proof to us that walk by faith that what He says is true.

What was Jesus message to the Pharasees, Scribes and religious rulers, that their traditions, great in number, were not only a heavy burden on the people, but hindered them from entering the Kingdom because rather than focusing on walking by faith and following the spirit of the law, they were focusing on all the external rites and traditions. For example, instead of taking care of their parents in their old age; sorry mom and dad but we made a vow with God (corbin) and this belongs to the Lord. Of course that means they kept and used what they had with the promise to leave what remained to the Lord while leaving mom and dad to suffer; they broke the command to honor their parents by the traditions they created. This is why Jesus gave such a blistering condemnation to those Jews, but as He also said, it was by His doing that they crucified the God of glory. The Jews had a rite or tradition for everything and so much focus was put on that, it smothered the true faith that comes from the inside and not the outside. Clean the cup on the inside and the outside will also become clean. Remember how He and His diciples were admonished by the Pharasees for eating before performing the ceremonial washing; He attacked their traditions time and time again and He ignored those that were added to the law and the prophets and for this they wanted to and did kill Him.

i missed this

thank you Beth for your response

 

[mpjw2]

What if it’s you with the surprised look on your face when you realise you can’t sneak into heaven with sins on your soul and that you might need some cleansing in Purgatory after all?

You quite **correctly **said in your last post that no one can enter heaven with sin, but now it seems you’ve decided there’s some kinda short cut after all - like being “covered by the Blood of Jesus” maybe? … so that your sins suddenly become invisible to the Father?

Oh, whatever…

fxcc,

My sins are totally forgiven the moment I sincerely confess and repent to God and Jesus, and are covered by the blood of Jesus,

Isn’t that what you believe?.

If not, what sin is there God will not forgive in which you confess to Him?

there is only one sin…that is the one which we do not confess and hold onto.
How can God forgive sin if we are not sorry for committing it?

thank you ,
mpjw

 

[fxcc]

fxcc,

**My sins are totally forgiven the moment I sincerely confess **and repent to God and Jesus, and are covered by the blood of Jesus,

Isn’t that what you believe?.

If not, what sin is there God will not forgive in which you confess to Him?

there is only one sin…that is the one which we do not confess and hold onto.
How can God forgive sin if we are not sorry for committing it?

thank you ,
mpjw

How can I be sure that when I die I won’t have any sins on my soul which I haven’t confessed (or **never had a chance **to confess) - sins, which therefore, have not been forgiven?

Do you think there might be lots and lots of people who die with some unforgiven sin or other on their souls? Is it probable in fact that most people die with some unconfessed/unforgiven sin(s) on their soul? If so, what happens to them?