Very confused on "No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church."

[mpjw2]

Fxcc you said you were curious as to why I left the Catholic Church.

from my personal experience, I believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.

but I also believe there is no salvation outside Christs’ Christian church family…catholics, baptists, protestants, presbyterians, lutherans, methodists…etc

when I was catholic I never understood salvation. I had this belief that if one was not catholic they were not going to heaven.

Not only that, being catholic myself, I knew, according to what I believed at the time, I was in the right place but there was a void in my mind as to how to get to heaven.

Even though there were scripture readings at every mass, I can never recall one time whether it be at mass, at catholic school, or with family that salvation or even reading the bible was talked about.

I grew up without a bible in my house…my parents never talked about reading the bible.

I have no idea how many Catholic families can relate to the same experience.

Even today, I talk about the bible with my mom, I love her with all my heart, but she does not have a bible in her possesion and does not want one.

then there were all at funerals I attended, all catholic. There were mixed signals to which I did not understand.
example…
In one breath my mom would say to me “your grandpop went to be with grandma in heaven”

in the next breath we are praying for his soul so he can enter heaven.

Oh by the way, there was a mass for grandma to pray for her soul once again.

you see, this was confusing to me…

if a person is in heaven … where there is no pain, sorrow, fear, tears, anger…a place of

complete overwhelming joy…

there is no need to pray for anyone if they are in heaven right?

so the talk at funerals …Uncle Bob is now partying with uncle George in heaven is it just humor or do the people actually believe what they are saying and if they believe why do they pray when they do not have to?

today…I believe that our loved ones who departed are praying for us.

then one day, my eyes were opened to what salvation is all about at a place I least expected.

I did not quite understand it completely at the time.

I attended a funeral for one of my friends in the military…for the first time I attended a non catholic funeral…my friend was baptist.

picture in your mind a the end of a catholic funeral mass as the casket is being rolled out the door and all family and friends are following behind

honestly…when you look in the faces of all, what do you see?

At my friends funeral, there was the initial tears and expression of sorrow as family and friends walked by the casket (viewing was at the church)

but during service the mood amazingly changed from sorrow to joy.

from the music, to people singing, to the pastor’s message, to singing again…by the end of service I recall wondering to myself …“Is this a funeral or a wedding reception?”

then there was the gathering outside the church before we went to the cemetary.

There was not one tear to be found. It was like the joy experiencedat the gathering of people outside a church following a wedding.

I talked with my friends’ sister who could not thank me enough for coming. She encouraged me… her brother is now at peace with the Lord and that I can look forward to meeting Him again in heaven.

needless to say, I never heard anyone talk with such assurance at a funeral not only about where their loved one is but also that I can be in heaven to.

If what she believed was true, then I am missing something …I was 25 at the time.

you see fxcc,

the reason I left the Catholic Church is I can not hide what I believe in my heart.

If I was to come back to the Catholic Church, there is no way I would be accepted if I expressed to all I met…

"you can know for sure you will be in heaven on the day you will take your last breath here on earth"

This community is not accepting my belief here.

How would I be accepted if I would come back to the Catholic Church?

I believe my friend is in heaven…

the only thing the catholics will say is I hope and pray your friend is too.

God bless

mpjw

 

[Beth_Martin]

Not at all. The verses I give regarding sin leading one to hell can always be reconciled through the blood of Christ once we repent.
However, you simply say that sin is a part of you because you’re in your earthly sinful body and God will understand if you die in that state because Jesus will save you since you’re a self proclaimed elect of Heaven. This totally contradicts what Christ said "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever"
If sin is a part of you, and we know a servant of sin can’t abideth in the house forever, then it MUST be removed before one is to become the son again. How is this done. REPENT!!!

Beth, each and everytime you sin, you are NOT actively participating in the things God has ordained for you. You’ve made a choice to be disobedient to His will. You separated yourself and it needs to be repaired through reconciliation since it is ONLY THOSE WHO DO HIS WILL that will inherit eternal life.
If you, in this state of being ordained can sin, then you certainly can walk away from Him forever. If you respond by telling me that I limit God’s power through His Son’s Sacrifice by saying this, then I will tell you that you believe the Holy Spirit is too weak to keep you from sinning forever. That the Sanctification of Christ is not strong enough to overcome the sins against God. Now it’s either His being unable to overcome evil during times of your life in your sinful body, or it’s YOU who’s sinning and YOU who should be held accountable for it each and every time.

Again, not if you understand what the Church preaches on this. Of course it’s God’s who gives us the strength to persevere. But we have to willingly receive this gift of strength. So again, I will ask you why in Mark, it said that only he that endures till the end will be saved IF it is God that does all the enduring for us? It fits our beliefs perfectly but not yours. Our enduring comes from God but we make a choice on whether to continue to repent, and continue obtain His Graces through His Sacraments.

Not at all. I have shown you how these are all linked within the beliefs of Catholicism. Now you tell me why in Mark, Christ who was specifically talking about Christians at the time, said that only he who endures till the end is saved if a ‘saved Christian’ person will always endure.******
**Ironic that you used this verse when it actually helps with my point instead of yours. **
Paul is actually telling them to accept their difficulties as from God because it’s for their benefit. He’s wanting them not to give up. He is trying to exhort his readers to persevere. So again, why is He even preaching this since you and the rest of the elect will do so regardless since you’re already saved. Because Paul knew many Christians will not do so and eventually lose faith.

And even to end that chapter it says this: "Therefore receiving an immoveable kingdom, we have grace; whereby let us serve, pleasing God, with fear and reverence."

Notice how He’s still telling us serve in a way that’s pleasing to God, when according to your sanctified self, you wouldn’t need to hear this peaching since a truly ‘saved’ person would always be trying to please God.

You are missing the entire point. How can you distinqguish a real Christian from a fake one; generally speaking? Jesus said you will know both the true and the false by their fruits. Keep this in mind. The ones who are of God will persevere and bear fruit because of two things 1) the power of God indwelling to both persevere and to bear fruit and 2) they are true Christians.

The people who are doing it on their own strength will never persevere because they do not have the power of God to persevere and will continue to fall into the same sin over and over because they are not Christians rather tares pretending to be Christians.

This brings me to another point. When dealing with sin it must be dealt with prior to entering the narrow gate. This is one of the core reasons people never make it into the Kingdom of God, they never came to God with true repentance or turning away from their sin and toward God and holiness. As long as you are in the flesh, which is till the day one dies, one will continue to sin. Have you ever met a Christian that did not sin? That is why I tell you if you use the standards you are presenting, which is out of context with the the work of the Holy Spirit, then no one will ever enter the Kingdom, not even the Apostle Paul.

You must put this whole things in the context of Romans 7, listen to Paul:
**17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good {is} not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Will Continue on next post

 

[Beth_Martin]

Des-Continued:

This is continued from previous post

When one hears or reads the gosepl and believes the message by faith, they immediately receive the Holy Spirit, the true baptism given by Jesus, and from that point on the Christian has all the tools to persevere and will persevere because the old man died to the new nature in Christ, but what the Christian still has is the flesh, which he/she will not shed till death. This is why Paul says it is no longer I that sin, but the flesh. The sins were paid for over 2000 years ago at the cross before you or I were born. Our purpose is soley to give God glory at this point. When we ask for forgiveness, we give God glory, when we pray we give God glory, when we help our neighbor we give God glory, when we are content with our lives we give God glory and many other ways; yet we still sin. Yes we will hinder our growth if we continue an unabated pattern of sin. This will not last long for God will discipline that Christian. Des you can perform all the Sacraments you want and do all the greatest of deeds you want and God says He counts thoses as “wages that are due” and specifically says it does not give grace that you claim.

I have spoken about this before, but how God works out that we are constantly encouraged to carry on and to carry on, yet at the same time God has done it all is a paradox I cannot understand, but I listen and I know my purpose is to glorify my Creator and by all His exhortation & encouragements to continue on and my obedience to that, which was given to me before I was born I do not understand completely and actually very little, but I know God has worked all that out in a just-manner and I accept that and walk by faith.

 

[Beth_Martin]

Thank you Beth, for reminding us of these several things that Jesus said and the many things that He did not say.

Unfortunately, in the process, you clean forgot to address the import of the nine specific words of Jesus, “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”, which I drew to your attention, to refute the heresy that the Catholic Church is not infallible.

Oh, never mind. Amnesia happens, even to the best of disputers. Whoops, I mean, debaters.

Pretty cheap shot on your part as well as a sin of the thoughts, but we are all sinners. “The gates of Hell shall not prevail” doesn’t mean anything concerning the Roman Catholic Church, for it was never even thought of in Scripture, but Jesus is saying that the church He is building will prevail against any attacks.

**You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. ** Same the principal, the church that Jesus is building and to which He is the foundation and to which the Christians belong cannot be overcome by anything for Christ who dwells in the believers and thus in the collective body, the church is greater than the evil one.

Here again Jesus makes a similar anaology:*** "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand.*** Who has the Father given to the Saon, the individual believers that make up what is known as the church and nothing is able to destroy it.

The verse you cite tells us that Satan will do everything in his power to try to destroy the church Jesus is building, but thanks be to the cross of Christ and the resurrection He has overcome the world and all that believe in Him have also overcome the world and not even Satan can prevail against Christ and those that are in Christ.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi Paul

I saw your questions to Beth, I like to give you my answers.(below) I also am curious as to how you would answer the same questions when turned around?

1. What do you believe you have to do toward Salvation that other Christians do not also have to do?
   **notice I inserted the words *“have to” *

…and the reason is to better understand your answer.**

1. What do you believe Christians need to do towards their salvation that you don’t need to do?

**notice I inserted the word *“need” ***

1. Can you say that anything other Christians do is actually detrimental to his/her soul?

Here are my answers…

What do you believe you do toward Salvation that a devout Catholic doesn’t also do?
Can you list even one item?

Believe in your own salvation…see my post #751 to get a better understanding of where am coming from

also believe the bible from first chapter to last as fact and truth. The bible is the word of God.

I talked to some catholics and they do not believe and can not accept in their heart of hearts that Mary was a virgin.

they tell me it is a physical impossibility for a women to become pregnant without a sperm fertilizing the egg.

btw…I do not believe just because they do not believe Mary was a virgin will prevent God from welcoming them home.

What do you believe Catholics do towards their salvation that you don’t do?

I’ll bet you can name several things, including partaking of the sacraments.

Actually no I can not…

I partake in the sacraments…but it is different

Eucharist…I have communion at church

you believe the host is the actual body of Christ

I have a spiritual remembrance of Jesus at the last supper
I do not believe the bread and “wine” change to the body and blood of Christ

Reconciliation…you confess to a priest

I confess directly to God in prayer

having said that, is their anything you believe Catholics do towards your salvation that I don’t do?

Everyone can identify things Catholics do that other Christians don’t but no one has ever been able to show that any of these things are detrimental to the soul.

because what you do is NOT detrimental to your soul

So why then, are you trying to teach Catholics to do less?

Paul and all catholics …hear me when I say this…

*God bless and praise God :extrahappy: for you and the whole catholic family for doing all they do to expand God’s family. I would never encourage anyone to do less than they already are doing

It is a fact that 20% of the people do 80% of the work.

there is nothing, I repeat nothing I believe you do which is detrimental to your soul*

I have asked these questions dozens of times. There has never been one person who could identify something they do that the Catholics lack.

The only thing I can think of, as I stated previously, is to believe in your own salvation :

Even if you do not believe, I respect your reason why you do not, will not prevent God from welcoming you home

I hope God takes the picture of the expression of surprise on your face as you "walk out of the door at the end of the road on this earth and directly through the door to Heaven and all your family and friends who departed before you …welcome you home :grouphug:

But more importantly, when you come face to face with God and from His owns lips he tells you…

‘Well done, good and faithful servant; … Enter into the joy of your Lord.’

Can you imaging what that will be like?

may I ask you, if you do nothing else, take this video to heart

youtube.com/watch?v=GanvfPrZUMI

God bless

mpjw

 

[fxcc]

Pretty cheap shot on your part as well as a sin of the thoughts, but we are all sinners. “The gates of Hell shall not prevail” doesn’t mean anything concerning the Roman Catholic Church, for it was never even thought of in Scripture, but Jesus is saying that the church He is building will prevail against any attacks.

You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. Same the principal, the church that Jesus is building and to which He is the foundation and to which the Christians belong cannot be overcome by anything for Christ who dwells in the believers and thus in the collective body, the church is greater than the evil one.

Here again Jesus makes a similar anaology:*** "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand.*** Who has the Father given to the Saon, the individual believers that make up what is known as the church and nothing is able to destroy it.

The verse you cite tells us that Satan will do everything in his power to try to destroy the church Jesus is building, but thanks be to the cross of Christ and the resurrection He has overcome the world and all that believe in Him have also overcome the world and not even Satan can prevail against Christ and those that are in Christ.

The innovators have been challenged several times to produce a text of Sacred Scripture which would prove the existence of the invisible church they invented, and we are unable to obtain any such text from them. How could they adduce such a text when, addressing His Apostles whom He left as the propagators of His Church, Jesus said: “You cannot be hidden” (Matthew 5:14)? … Thus He has declared that the Church cannot help but be visible to everyone … The Church has been at all times, and will forever be, necessarily visible, so that each person may always be able to learn from his pastor the true doctrine regarding the dogmas of faith … to receive the Sacraments, to be directed in the way of salvation, and to be enlightened and corrected should he ever fall into error. For, were the Church in any time hidden and invisible, to whom would men have recourse in order to learn what they are to believe and to do? … It was necessary that the Church and her pastors be obvious and visible, principally in order that there might be an infallible judge … to resolve all doubts, and to whose decision everyone should necessarily submit. Otherwise, there would be no sure rule of faith by which Christians could know the true dogmas of faith and the true precepts of morality, and among the faithful there would be endless disputes and controversies … “And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:11-14)

But what faith can we learn from these false teachers when, in consequence of separating from the Church, they have no rule of faith? … How often Calvin changed his opinions! And, during his life, Luther was constantly contradicting himself: on the single article of the Eucharist, he fell into thirty-three contradictions! A single contradiction is enough to show that they did not have the Spirit of God. “He cannot deny Himself” (II Timothy 2:13). In a word, take away the authority of the Church, and neither Divine Revelation nor natural reason itself is of any use, for each of them may be interpreted by every individual according to his own caprice … Do they not see that from this accursed liberty of conscience has arisen the immense variety of heretical and atheistic sects? … I repeat: if you take away obedience to the Church, there is no error which will not be embraced.

Goodbye Beth. I’m discontinuing this dialogue with you on the soundly based apprehension that you’ll next claim that the sun is square and challenge me to prove otherwise. Your imaginative brain and inventive tongue are taking up way too much of my valuable time.

 

[mpjw2]

Hi beth

for what ever reason you have not acknowledged me on the thread…that is ok
I have been reading all that I can and I believe you have good intention in your heart

however I saw your answer to Paul’s questions and a light bulb went off in my head, thank you God, as I am posting comments I am also talking to myself…so here goes

You add works to that claim to earn saving grace to the cross of Christ.

we need to ask before making such statements…

Paul, do you believe you need to earn saving grace to the cross of Christ?

I adhere to it is all of grace by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone

;
Paul, I know this is not what you believe…just to let you know where I am coming from
and because i believe this…

not of any meritorious works or of anythng that I have done or are capable of doing to gain saving grace before God. I hold onto the doctrine of election or predestination that the sins of the righteous are imputed from Jesus account to my account and that is the sole basis for my salvation.

the following is what I believe is a misunderstanding between catholics and non catholics…

I do not hold that one can just keep on sinning intentionally

none of us, if we desire to follow Jesus, like to sin…but in our human nature we still do sin

because to believe and fully trust in Jesus (I believe) one must recognize HIs Lordship over their lives

Paul, do you believe this?

in addition

accepting the free gift of justification.

which I realize you do not believe salvation is a free gift

I do not mix sanctification with justification which is the crux of the matter and the difference to what you adhere as to what i adhere and it is the core issue that seperates us.

Beth, can you explain the difference, as you believe it to be, between sanctification with justification. It might help to understand you better

God bless

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

francis,

did you se my response to you …#750 and my post to enlighten your curiosity on why Ieft the Catholic Church #751…It is because of what God revealed to me that I believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church

God bless

Mike

 

[paul_c]

Fxcc you said you were curious as to why I left the Catholic Church.

from my personal experience, I believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church.

but I also believe there is no salvation outside Christs’ Christian church family…catholics, baptists, protestants, presbyterians, lutherans, methodists…etc

when I was catholic I never understood salvation. I had this belief that if one was not catholic they were not going to heaven.

Not only that, being catholic myself, I knew, according to what I believed at the time, I was in the right place but there was a void in my mind as to how to get to heaven.

Even though there were scripture readings at every mass, I can never recall one time whether it be at mass, at catholic school, or with family that salvation or even reading the bible was talked about.

I grew up without a bible in my house…my parents never talked about reading the bible.

I have no idea how many Catholic families can relate to the same experience.

Even today, I talk about the bible with my mom, I love her with all my heart, but she does not have a bible in her possesion and does not want one.

then there were all at funerals I attended, all catholic. There were mixed signals to which I did not understand.
example…
In one breath my mom would say to me “your grandpop went to be with grandma in heaven”

in the next breath we are praying for his soul so he can enter heaven.

Oh by the way, there was a mass for grandma to pray for her soul once again.

you see, this was confusing to me…

if a person is in heaven … where there is no pain, sorrow, fear, tears, anger…a place of

complete overwhelming joy…

there is no need to pray for anyone if they are in heaven right?

so the talk at funerals …Uncle Bob is now partying with uncle George in heaven is it just humor or do the people actually believe what they are saying and if they believe why do they pray when they do not have to?

today…I believe that our loved ones who departed are praying for us.

then one day, my eyes were opened to what salvation is all about at a place I least expected.

I did not quite understand it completely at the time.

I attended a funeral for one of my friends in the military…for the first time I attended a non catholic funeral…my friend was baptist.

picture in your mind a the end of a catholic funeral mass as the casket is being rolled out the door and all family and friends are following behind

honestly…when you look in the faces of all, what do you see?

At my friends funeral, there was the initial tears and expression of sorrow as family and friends walked by the casket (viewing was at the church)

but during service the mood amazingly changed from sorrow to joy.

from the music, to people singing, to the pastor’s message, to singing again…by the end of service I recall wondering to myself …“Is this a funeral or a wedding reception?”

then there was the gathering outside the church before we went to the cemetary.

There was not one tear to be found. It was like the joy experiencedat the gathering of people outside a church following a wedding.

I talked with my friends’ sister who could not thank me enough for coming. She encouraged me… her brother is now at peace with the Lord and that I can look forward to meeting Him again in heaven.

needless to say, I never heard anyone talk with such assurance at a funeral not only about where their loved one is but also that I can be in heaven to.

If what she believed was true, then I am missing something …I was 25 at the time.

you see fxcc,

the reason I left the Catholic Church is I can not hide what I believe in my heart.

If I was to come back to the Catholic Church, there is no way I would be accepted if I expressed to all I met…

"you can know for sure you will be in heaven on the day you will take your last breath here on earth"

This community is not accepting my belief here.

How would I be accepted if I would come back to the Catholic Church?

I believe my friend is in heaven…

the only thing the catholics will say is I hope and pray your friend is too.

God bless

mpjw

MPJW,
You see, yoru faith is based on what you WANT to believe. You want to believe you are going to heaven, so you seek out a religion that tells you what you want to hear. But what good does that do you if it is not the truth? In fact, it could very well have the opposite effect to what you want.

You see, Satan is very, very cleaver. He trades on half truths and personal insecurity to lead you to hell. It sounds great when you hear that Jesus did it all for you and all you need to do it trust him. Except thats not all you need to do. You need to follow him. Which means you need to partake of his sacraments and you need to love God and your neighbors, even to the death. I’m sure its very comforting now that the Baptists play God and declare themselves saved but you know in their hearts, many don’t believe this. That’s why they are always trying to re-asure each other that they have been saved. But they don’t know. They arent valid judges. Can they read men’s hearts? Can they even read thier own?

Frankly, you need the grace of the sacraments more than the reassurance of your baptist friends. And I’m sorry that you obviously weren’t properly catechized but you know, there is nothing stopping you now from learning your faith correctly. And when you are practiciing the sacraments and devotions in the right frame of mind, you will find that peace you so obviously desire. For some people, it is necessary to leave the church in order to truly find it upon returning.

 

[fxcc]

francis,

did you se my response to you …#750 and my post to enlighten your curiosity on why Ieft the Catholic Church #751…It is because of what God revealed to me that I believe there is salvation outside the Catholic Church

God bless

Mike

You’ve been had.
That was Satan posing as God.
God wouldn’t advise you to leave the Church (the **only **Church, yeah, the **Catholic **Church) which He founded.
Every heretic says God revealed things to him/her. And it’s always something against His Church that God supposedly “revealed”.

 

[inkaneer]

If I was to come back to the Catholic Church, there is no way I would be accepted if I expressed to all I met…

"you can know for sure you will be in heaven on the day you will take your last breath here on earth"

This community is not accepting my belief here.

How would I be accepted if I would come back to the Catholic Church?

I believe my friend is in heaven…

the only thing the catholics will say is I hope and pray your friend is too.

mpjw

You say “I believe my friend is in heaven…” But you do not know, now do you? And no one can be sure they will be in heaven. The Apostle Paul certainly didn’t. In Matthew 10:22 Jesus tells the Apostles, " and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." How do you know you will endure to the end? And will some please show me where scripture says we can be assured that we will be [not can be but will be] saved.

If you were to come back to the Catholic Church you would not have the false presumption of something that scripture does not speak of. Instead It will pointed out to you that this false presumption of salvation is nothing more than the sin of pride manifesting itself in you as it did in Lucifer. For Lucifer also presumed that He would ascend into heaven [Isaiah 14:13] and was cut down to hell. As a Catholic, instead of saying, “I am saved” what you will say is, “I am saved now, I am being saved and when I die, I hope to be saved” As a Catholic you presume nothing but every day you pick up your cross and follow Jesus just like He said. I know. Protestantism is a whole lot easier than Catholicism but then even the Apostles wondered about who can be saved whren Jesus told them, “… it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” Scriptures record that when the Apostles heard this, "…they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” Protestantism provides an wide open gate to a false salvation but the narrow gate of Catholicism is the way to saving one’s soul. Peter warned of this false teaching of salvation. He said:

“20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. 1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.” [2 Peter 1:20-21; 2:1]

And who were these false teachers? Calvin, Luther and Zwiglii and all the protestant ministers who followed them down to the present day.

 

[mpjw2]

You say “I believe my friend is in heaven…” But you do not know, now do you?

you right …I do not know if he made a confession to God as he was being stabbed to death on the streets of Philadelphia.

All I know is that the thief in his dying breath confessed to Jesus Christ and Jesus answered to Him…
“I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”"today
Luke 23:43

If Jesus saved the thief in His dying breath, give me one good reason why He would not save you should you make a confession as you were leaving earth.

And no one can be sure they will be in heaven.

If I am physically dirty and want to be clean again…I take a shower…

If I just dirtied my soul (sinned) and want to be clean again …I shower myself in the forgiving blood of Jesus and confess…

if you knew you had just committed a sin, how long do you want to stay dirty?

Wouldn’t you confess that sin right away so God can forgive you and restore your soul to a state of grace again?..

I can not imagine anyone wanting sin on their soul for more than a fraction of a second

The Apostle Paul certainly didn’t.

Here is what Paul told his son Timothy

Timothy 1
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, 13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a **faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. **

If I was Timothy, I would believe that If God can save my dad who was a blasphemer, I can be saved too and all I need to do is what my dad wrote in Romans…

In Matthew 10:22 Jesus tells the Apostles, " and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." How do you know you will endure to the end?

I do not plan on killing my self and like I mentioned above, I will confess as many times it takes to keep my soul sin free in the eyes of almighty God till the day I die.

And will some please show me where scripture says we can be assured that we will be [not can be but will be] saved.

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives…,

since you ask. i present you with what you asked for with joy in my heart

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Even in the Catholic New American Bible

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you ***will ***be saved.

Inkaneer just from this verse alone

Do you believe Jesus is Lord and confess to Him your sin?

Do you believe God raised Jesus from the dead?

I assume you do. I assume you will believe this until you take your last breath.

and If you endure that belief till the end…you will be saved …alleluia

Not my words…but the words of almighty God

God bless you

mpjw

 

[mpjw2]

You see, Satan is very, very cleaver. He trades on half truths and personal insecurity to lead you to hell. .

Oh my do you believe that is wher I am headed

I agree satan is cleaver, He also want to rob you of the joy and peace I have knowing that if I stay faithful to God and endure to the end as I just expressed in previous post, there is a great reward awaiting me…everlasting life in heaven

God bless

 

[Beth_Martin]

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw **all **things to myself.” John 12:32

So the fact of the matter Beth, is exactly the opposite of your wild, infantile and arrogant claim. The reason **more **and **more **people are entering the Church is that God’s plan of salvation is coming to fruition (how could it not?), in **exactly **the way He designed it - through the **ministry **and **faithful **proclamation of the Good News by the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which He founded, to go and teach **all **nations.

The Christ was indeed lifted up. And He is indeed drawing **all **men to Himself - right before the eyes of the world! **More **and **more **people are discovering the redeeming Light **in the Catholic Church ** despite the unceasing (and increasingly desperate) efforts of all her enemies. Even in the middle of all the ruckus, the Catholic Church has quietly and majestically grown, as is her divinely ordained destiny, some 11% in the past 8 years alone. And she will continue on her mission of gathering all who have eyes to see and ears to hear under her fold. We realise how much dismay this must cause to those who hope and work so assiduously for the true Church’s demise, preaching as they do the preposterous lie that only somewhere outside of the walls of the Great City, in some dark and obscure wilderness, discernible only by their sixth senses, lies the narrow track that leads to salvation! Ha! Give us a break, will you? We’re sorry to have to burst your “privileged” bubble, but the road to salvation is neither invisible nor inaccessible to the majority of God’s children, in favour of “just a few”.

"… the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and **all **nations shall flow unto it… for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. ” (Isa 2:2)

It is the Lord who speaks. The Kingdom of God is at hand. Repent and be baptised.

You can make the Word of God void if you chose to, but I follow and obey the Lord and His Word is where His will is found and where the principals of how the Christian is to live is found in the Scripture the only authentic revelation from God in my faith.

It was the same in the OT as is in the NT
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE SONS OF ISRAEL BE LIKE THE SAND OF THE SEA, IT IS THE REMNANT THAT WILL BE SAVED;

**And someone said to Him, “Lord, are there {just} a few who are being saved?” And He said to them, 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

"Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE." 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to {God’s} gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

*** "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it*. **

"Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

There will be few Catholics and few Protestants and a few others; the question is are you among the few or among the many? I am of the few and I am sure of it because I fully trust in God and walk by faith alone and count on God’s grace and mercy alone. Plus I understand what the Bible teaches in knowing and what the signs are and I have experienced the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit who also bears witness to my spirit that I am a child of God. It all began with repentance from the heart which God prepared.

 

[Beth_Martin]

The confusion expressed here is unbelievable – but typical of the misplaced selfist, personal prejudice against Christ!
How? Simple:
Christ gave us His Church and ***She gave us the New Testament and, through Christ’s commission, infallibly declared which writings form the Sacred Scriptures, now called the Bible. She has declared infallibly that ***“It is clear, therefore, that in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others.”

We know that Christ established His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church on Peter and the ten apostles with His authority to teach all nations, with His power to bind and loose, and the Holy Spirit to bring to their minds all that He had commanded, and that He would be with His Church until the end of time.

I stopped reading the post after the inital premise which is based on error. Christ said “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH” and it means it is continuing to be built; it is not yet finished, but the Catholic Church has been built for what all of you claim is 2000 years, so we can by reason make the argument it cannot be your church that Christ is speaking of.

Who is the author of Scripture? The Catholic church or the Holy Spirit? That is the premise which you stated was in error at the beginning of the post. Is the Bible Scripture or not? Further evidence that your inital claim is in arror and against the work of God. The very opposite of your claim and your attack.

When did this “Church” of yours make this claim; there are various controversies within Catholicism as to the date and for good reason. Augustine in cluded the DC’s but distinquished the defintion of Canon as that pertaining to divine and that of non divine and Jerome said no the DC’s and the Jews rejected the DC’s.

What did Jesus have to say about every stroke of the pen concerning Scripture? What did the psalmist have to say about Scripture and its effectual ability to change people?

Is the church made of overseers, Deacons, and the royal priesthood of believers collectively? Is this group not charged with protecting “pillar and support” of the Truth, which is the Scripture? Where is the altar of sacrafice and the Catholic priest mentioned in Scripture; was not part of the book of Hebrews written to show that the old style priesthood was no longer viable or needed because of the one sacrafice made once and for all and the remaining alter not made of human hands? Why was the the pastoral epistles given to us if not to give the formula for selecting men as overseers and Deacons at each local church with Christ as the head over all in heaven and on earth? Where does your form of religion fit into what was delivered by the Scriptures?

Your argument is circular for the Scripture gives the church the authority based on the authority of Scripture and at the same time the Church has the authority to interpret that same authority? It is in fact an authority unto itself and therefore as history as shown is very fallible. With all that said; it is your faith and your belief system and it is not mine. Mine is based soley in the Protestant Bible and obedience to what is written in it, not by anything of me, but by His grace abd HIs mercy to which I walk by faith in Him and His promises. In the end, there will be Chritians entering into heaven from both the Catholic and the Protestant isles and that is good news!!

Also, their were 12 apostles of Christ, the original, once Judas was deemed the betrayer and son of perdition as prophesied he was disqualified, it was also prophasied that one would take his office (Psalm 109:8), which Matthias fulfilled. Paul was selected later after the resurrection and would fit into the general category of apostle - just a clarification or FYI.

 

[paul_c]

Oh my do you believe that is wher I am headed

I agree satan is cleaver, He also want to rob you of the joy and peace I have knowing that if I stay faithful to God and endure to the end as I just expressed in previous post, there is a great reward awaiting me…everlasting life in heaven

God bless

I hope you will repent and be saved. Your ultimate destination is still undecided.
And Satan doesn’t care if you have joy and peace. He often uses that to lead people astray…

 

[Beth_Martin]

The innovators have been challenged several times to produce a text of Sacred Scripture which would prove the existence of the invisible church they invented, and we are unable to obtain any such text from them. How could they adduce such a text when, addressing His Apostles whom He left as the propagators of His Church, Jesus said: “You cannot be hidden” (Matthew 5:14)? … Thus He has declared that the Church cannot help but be visible to everyone … The Church has been at all times, and will forever be, necessarily visible, so that each person may always be able to learn from his pastor the true doctrine regarding the dogmas of faith … to receive the Sacraments, to be directed in the way of salvation, and to be enlightened and corrected should he ever fall into error. For, were the Church in any time hidden and invisible, to whom would men have recourse in order to learn what they are to believe and to do? … It was necessary that the Church and her pastors be obvious and visible, principally in order that there might be an infallible judge … to resolve all doubts, and to whose decision everyone should necessarily submit. Otherwise, there would be no sure rule of faith by which Christians could know the true dogmas of faith and the true precepts of morality, and among the faithful there would be endless disputes and controversies … “And Christ gave some apostles, and others pastors and doctors, that henceforth we be no more children tossed to-and-fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine” (Eph. 4:11-14)

But what faith can we learn from these false teachers when, in consequence of separating from the Church, they have no rule of faith? … How often Calvin changed his opinions! And, during his life, Luther was constantly contradicting himself: on the single article of the Eucharist, he fell into thirty-three contradictions! A single contradiction is enough to show that they did not have the Spirit of God. “He cannot deny Himself” (II Timothy 2:13). In a word, take away the authority of the Church, and neither Divine Revelation nor natural reason itself is of any use, for each of them may be interpreted by every individual according to his own caprice … Do they not see that from this accursed liberty of conscience has arisen the immense variety of heretical and atheistic sects? … I repeat: if you take away obedience to the Church, there is no error which will not be embraced.

Goodbye Beth. I’m discontinuing this dialogue with you on the soundly based apprehension that you’ll next claim that the sun is square and challenge me to prove otherwise. Your imaginative brain and inventive tongue are taking up way too much of my valuable time.

That is fine with me but here is the answer to your invisible church from God’s own word. There is the visible gathering of the church which some are wheat and some are tares, then there is the true church which no on has seen yet.

**For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. **

Who are the “sons of God”? Saints. Are they yet to be revealed? no. That is the true church of Jesus that no one, even the angels in heaven know and all are waiting for the Bride of Christ to be revealed.

The good news is that Bride will have both Catholics and non-Catholics that God sees as Christians in heaven.

God bless and nice talking with you.

Beth

 

[Beth_Martin]

Hi beth

for what ever reason you have not acknowledged me on the thread…that is ok
I have been reading all that I can and I believe you have good intention in your heart

however I saw your answer to Paul’s questions and a light bulb went off in my head, thank you God, as I am posting comments I am also talking to myself…so here goes

we need to ask before making such statements…

Paul, do you believe you need to earn saving grace to the cross of Christ?

;
Paul, I know this is not what you believe…just to let you know where I am coming from
and because i believe this…

the following is what I believe is a misunderstanding between catholics and non catholics…

none of us, if we desire to follow Jesus, like to sin…but in our human nature we still do sin

Paul, do you believe this?

in addition

which I realize you do not believe salvation is a free gift

Beth, can you explain the difference, as you believe it to be, between sanctification with justification. It might help to understand you better

God bless

mpjw

Justification to to be declared righteous before God; a one time event that occurs the moment God deems one to right in His sight based on hearing and believing the gospel. immediately the sanctification process begins, which is lifelong and where the Christian becomes more and more conformed to image of Christ while we wait for the full redemtoption which occurs at death when we get rid of the sinful flesh.

Catholic believe that justification is not a one time event, but rather is a lifelong process as sacntification is, which is why they believe they can not only loose their salvation, but also regain what was lost. hope that helps.

 

[paul_c]

You add works to that claim to earn saving grace to the cross of Christ. I adhere to it is all of grace by faoth alone in Jesus Christ alone; not of any meritorious works or of anythng that I have done or are capable of doing to gain saving grace before God. I hold onto the doctrine of election or predestination that the sins of the righteous are imputed from Jesus account to my account and that is the sole basis for my salvation. I do not hold that one can just keep on sinning intentionally because to believe and fully trust in Jesus one must recognize HIs Lordship over their lives as well as accepting the free gift of justification. I do not mix sanctification with justification which is the crux of the matter and the difference to what you adhere as to what i adhere and it is the core issue that seperates us.

I can’t help but notice you didn’t answer the questions. In any case, do you think God will hold it against Catholics that demonstrate their faith with works of love? Don’t you understand that Jesus asked for more than words? He said, " come follow me"

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
You say “I believe my friend is in heaven…” But you do not know, now do you?

you right …I do not know if he made a confession to God as he was being stabbed to death on the streets of Philadelphia.

All I know is that the thief in his dying breath confessed to Jesus Christ and Jesus answered to Him…
“I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”"today
Luke 23:43

If Jesus saved the thief in His dying breath, give me one good reason why He would not save you should you make a confession as you were leaving earth.

Deathbed confessions like that of Dismas are certainly valid if like Dismas are done for the correct reason. But what happens if you pass into eternity in your sleep without the ability to make such a confession. Eternity is a lot to gamble for and lose.

Quote:
originally posted by inkaneer
And no one can be sure they will be in heaven.

If I am physically dirty and want to be clean again…I take a shower…

If I just dirtied my soul (sinned) and want to be clean again …I shower myself in the forgiving blood of Jesus and confess…

if you knew you had just committed a sin, how long do you want to stay dirty?

Wouldn’t you confess that sin right away so God can forgive you and restore your soul to a state of grace again?..

I can not imagine anyone wanting sin on their soul for more than a fraction of a second

That’s why we have the sacrament of confession given to the church by Jesus. See John 20:23. Jesus gave the power to forgive sin to His Church. Unlike Matthew 18:21 when Peter asked Him how many times should he forgive someone that sinned against him personally in John 20:23 Jesus tells them they can forgive or retain the sins of anyone.

Here is what Paul told his son Timothy

Timothy was not Paul’s son, he was his disciple. Paul was celebate or at least he claimed to be. Can scripture be wrong [1Cor 7:8] ? Paul was Timothy’s father in the same way priests are called Father. It was a spiritual fatherhood.

Quote:
Originally posted by inkaneer
And will some please show me where scripture says we can be assured that we will be [not can be but will be] saved.

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives…,

since you ask. i present you with what you asked for with joy in my heart

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Even in the Catholic New American Bible

if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Inkaneer just from this verse alone
Do you believe Jesus is Lord and confess to Him your sin? Do you believe God raised Jesus from the dead? I assume you do. I assume you will believe this until you take your last breath. and If you endure that belief till the end…you will be saved …alleluia

Not my words…but the words of almighty God .

Not so fast buster. Nowhere in those verses does it say we are assured of salvation. I know many a person who will readily confess that Jesus is Lord and without a doubt will say that Jesus died was buried and on the third day rose from the dead and they are the biggest sinners around. You know Jesus also said that unless you eat His Body and drink His Blood you have no life in you. He also said those words were spiritual. He was talking of man’s soul being dead. A dead soul is not a saved soul. It is a condemned soul. You fell for a ruse called protestantism. It promised you a quick fix to the problem of salvation and reduced the Word of God to one single solitary verse. And you were ignorant enough of the truth to believe it.

Right now do you know what one of the largest groups of people [besides Anglicans/Episcopalians] that are entering the Catholic Church? Protestant ministers. Do you know why? Because they realize that there is more to christianity than just the quick fix that protestantism offers. Tune into EWTN on Monday nights at 8:00 and watch a program called *The Journey Home * its about protestant ministers who gave up their homes, jobs, careers and even family relationships to join the Catholic Church because they knew there was more than what protestantism had to offer.