View of dissent

[Penny_Plain]

Hi.

I came back to the Forums after a few months to see what the reaction to Benedict XVI was. I was surprised and dismayed to see the number of posters who are hoping that he will drive away the “dissenters” (defined as everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with Church teaching). I don’t understand. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Let’s take a hypothetical person, so it doesn’t get personal immediately. Image a cradle Catholic who goes to Mass weekly and receives the Sacraments. This person is married and raising her children Catholic. She sins, like everyone else.

She also believes gay people should be able to marry each other (civil unions, not sacramental marriages) and uses birth control for non-medical reasons. She is not going to change either of those views, and she realizes that the teaching of the Church is contrary to her beliefs on these subjects.

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

 

[Maranatha]

Penny Plain:

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

I would like to Church to try and save her soul.

 

[contemplative]

Penny Plain:

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

It is this mentality that has caused trouble in our Church to begin with. The coddling needs to stop.

 

[mommy]

Penny Plain:

Hi.
She also believes gay people should be able to marry each other (civil unions, not sacramental marriages) and uses birth control for non-medical reasons. She is not going to change either of those views, and she realizes that the teaching of the Church is contrary to her beliefs on these subjects.

Let me ask you this one, Do you think that the Church (Christ) should change to follow the sinners. Or should the sinners change to follow Christ?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Penny Plain:

Hi.

I came back to the Forums after a few months to see what the reaction to Benedict XVI was. I was surprised and dismayed to see the number of posters who are hoping that he will drive away the “dissenters” (defined as everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with Church teaching). I don’t understand. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Some one who does not believe 100% of what the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals is not a Catholic even if they call themselves one.

That is the biggest problem we have in regards to this.

If people do not want to follow the Church 100% then why should the Church give in to them? That is the better question.

Or even better, why do those who do not believe 100% of that the Catholic Church teaches want to call themselves Catholic?

 

[kmktexas]

Penny Plain:

Hi.

I came back to the Forums after a few months to see what the reaction to Benedict XVI was. I was surprised and dismayed to see the number of posters who are hoping that he will drive away the “dissenters” (defined as everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with Church teaching). I don’t understand. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Let’s take a hypothetical person, so it doesn’t get personal immediately.

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

Penny,

I don’t think that most of the posters here who are looking for strong action from our new Pope are wishing him to do anything to individual lay Catholics regardless of thier personal views of Church teaching. What I hope for, and I don’t think I am alone, is that he will “lay the smackdown” (as his fan club says) on those people, especially clergy and religious who publically dissent from Church teaching or who try to convince Catholics that it is ok to dissent.

If your hypothetical woman were to teach a high school CCE class and tell her students that gay unions and using contraceptives are alright – or worse, if she tried to convince them that those two things are actully in accordance with Church teaching, then she should be dealt with (not burnt at the stake, but counseled and, if she doesn’t change, removed from a teaching position). This is precisely the approach that then Cardinal Ratzinger took with a faculty member at a leading Catholic University. He was called to account for what he was teaching, counseled to cease teaching contrary to the Faith and, only when he refused to change, he was removed.

I think that it is also a wish of many that our new Holy Father will make it clear to the Bishops that they should not tolerate dissent from the priests under their watch and to guard more carefully the eternal salvation of the souls of the faithful than the immaginary “right” to dissent of the clergy. Somehow, especially in the US, many priests have acted and spoken as if they have a “right” to express publically views which oppose Church teaching. I think that many wish that they are held accountable for thier actual responsibilty, which is to uphold and explain Church teaching to the faithful. If the faithful, in their own hearts, cannot abide by Church teaching, that is between them and their confessors.

 

[Penny_Plain]

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics.

Oh, and KMK’s response. Assume she’s not in a position of authority and doesn’t teach anyone except her own children. She does, however, regularly discuss her faith with others, both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What should the Church do with this person?

What will the Church do with her?

 

[Lisa_N]

Penny Plain:

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics. Oh, and KMK’s response.

What should the Church do with this person?

What do you want the Church to do with her?

What is the Church going to do? Why would the Church DO anything about individual private beliefs? The person who doesn’t accept the total richness of the Church is the one who is going to lose out. As KMKTexas said so well, the issue is not someone’s private beliefs that they do not share with the world, but those who are in a position of authority guilty of spreading dissent. Those are the ones who deserve the “smackdown.”

For the heretic who wishes to hold fast to her misguided ideas about homosexuals and ABC, it’s between her and God. We can pray, we can teach, we can affirm Catholic views. But I hardly think anyone expects the Church to be either THOUGHT or BEDROOM police.

What were you expecting?

Lisa N

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Penny Plain:

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics.

Oh, and KMK’s response. Assume she’s not in a position of authority and doesn’t teach anyone except her own children. She does, however, regularly discuss her faith with others, both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What should the Church do with this person?

What will the Church do with her?

Gently explain to her that she’s no longer Catholic. She can come back when she’s able to submit to the teaching authority of the Church. Until then, she should refrain from receiving Holy Communion. She should also be respectfully asked not to represent herself as Catholic, though there really isn’t anything the Church can do about that, ie, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Father Richard McBrien, etc.

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics.

Oh, and KMK’s response. Assume she’s not in a position of authority and doesn’t teach anyone except her own children. She does, however, regularly discuss her faith with others, both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What should the Church do with this person?

What will the Church do with her?

What is she doing to herself? Aquinas said if we reject even one teaching we reject the entire faith. Rejecting a teaching is rejecting Christ. We are saying to Him He is not the authority, but we are the authority. That is a very dangerous position for a soul to take.

 

[space_ghost]

…i just don’t ever want the church to bow to secular pressure…

…what she does and how she practices her faith is between her and God…

IMHO

 

[dennisknapp]

Penny Plain:

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics.

Oh, and KMK’s response. Assume she’s not in a position of authority and doesn’t teach anyone except her own children. She does, however, regularly discuss her faith with others, both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What should the Church do with this person?

What will the Church do with her?

What I don’t understand is why people who dissent stay in the Church in the first place.

The issues of homosexuality and ABC pale in comparison to the teaching that the Church is infallible in regards to faith and morals.

It is this belief that binds all Catholics to assent with Church teaching, for if the Church were not infallible than we could dissent and be correct in doing do.

The real problem is not what the Church should do with these people, but what these people should do with the Church.

If people acted consistently with their convictions there would be no dissent, for they would follow those convictions and find a place that suited them better.

Peace

 

[Maranatha]

ByzCath:

Some one who does not believe 100% of what the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals is not a Catholic even if they call themselves one.

That is the biggest problem we have in regards to this.

If people do not want to follow the Church 100% then why should the Church give in to them? That is the better question.

Or even better, why do those who do not believe 100% of that the Catholic Church teaches want to call themselves Catholic?

That is not correct. Once someone is confirmed Catholic they are always Catholic unless they are excommunicated or they formally renounce their position in the Church.

They can hold heretical believes, they can loose faith, they can publicly dissent but they are still Catholic.

This is why some have used labels such as Catholic in Name Only (CINO), liberal, conservative, dissenting, fallen away, etc. These labels are judgmental. We should limit our judgment to the actions of a person and not to the person herself.

 

[Maranatha]

dennisknapp:

What I don’t understand is why people who dissent stay in the Church in the first place.

The Holy Spirit is working on their hardened hearts as He does with the hearts of all sinners.

 

[Maranatha]

Penny Plain:

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics.

Pray
Fast
Teach by example
Adore the Eucharist
Receive the Eucharist
Trust in the Holy Spirit
Be ready to answer questions

 

[PJR]

Exactly, the Church is responsible for teaching us what God wants us to do and how to live to save our souls.

And if everyone followed what the Church teaches 100%, we would have no need for confession. I see a big difference between assent and strict obedience.

We all fall short on the obedience sometimes, but we aren’t dissenting unless we tell others that our disobedience is how it should be. I can see telling someone I know ABC is a mortal sin and I fell in weakness. That would not be dissent.

If she never gets to the point of at least assent to teachings I guess all the Church can do is continue to inform her conscience.

Maranatha:

I would like to Church to try and save her soul.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Anyone who feels that Benedict XVI will drive away dissenters is mistaken. Rather, he aims to drive away the dissent from the dissenters.

Despite my orthodox stance, and rejection of moral relativism and adherence to moral absolutes, I still default to that which I proclaim below - that Jesus never taught with a stick.

Those who “hope” the new pope will drive people away I think need to re-evaluate their position with some prayer and that prayer should be to soften the hearts of those who need it most.

Keep in mind what Benedict re-iterated: Truth without love is a clanging cymbal.

 

[Trelow]

Penny Plain:

Hi.

I came back to the Forums after a few months to see what the reaction to Benedict XVI was. I was surprised and dismayed to see the number of posters who are hoping that he will drive away the “dissenters” (defined as everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with Church teaching). I don’t understand. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Let’s take a hypothetical person, so it doesn’t get personal immediately. Image a cradle Catholic who goes to Mass weekly and receives the Sacraments. This person is married and raising her children Catholic. She sins, like everyone else.

She also believes gay people should be able to marry each other (civil unions, not sacramental marriages) and uses birth control for non-medical reasons. She is not going to change either of those views, and she realizes that the teaching of the Church is contrary to her beliefs on these subjects.

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

Then she is in heresy.

Canon Law #751 “Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith.”

 

[mercygate]

Penny Plain:

So, lots of labels but no answers yet, except for “save her soul,” which (although entirely commendable) is a tad short on specifics.

Oh, and KMK’s response. Assume she’s not in a position of authority and doesn’t teach anyone except her own children. She does, however, regularly discuss her faith with others, both Catholics and non-Catholics.

What should the Church do with this person?

What will the Church do with her?

If one were a good enough friend of hers to have her ear, one might encourage her to look seriously into why the Church teaches what it teaches. So many people just reject the end point of the hot-button issues because they have not been walked through the process. It’s easy to say: “I think the Church’s teaching against contraception is stupid!” or “It isn’t fair for the Church to expect gay people to be continent!” But that’s just reacting to the presenting symptom.

More than one dissenter has been converted when they learned not just WHAT the Church teaches but WHY she teaches it. The Church is a whole lot smarter than most of the rest of us, and she doesn’t sit around making up awkward disciplines just for the fun of it. In my case, learning the Church’s teaching on contraception changed my life!

 

[mommy]

Lux_et_veritas:

An

Those who “hope” the new pope will drive people away I think need to re-evaluate their position with some prayer and that prayer should be to soften the hearts of those who need it most.

I don’t want anyone to be driven away. Rather I’d like them to come back into communion with the church and the teachings. And I definately don’t want there to be any ambiguity from the Vatican that things like gay marriage are going to be welcomed.

As I said, we conform to the church, it does not conform to us.