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dennisknapp
Guest
Gottle of Geer said:
What about fidelity?
Peace
- Status
What about fidelity?
Peace
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I’m not sure what aspect of “truth” you want to hear about.
I am not sure I’m ready to be 100% faithful to my wife, if that means that I have so trained my brain so as forsake all others in such a way not to be attracted to them. Do I think other women are physically attractive, and sometimes very nice as well? Could that be construed as 0.01% unfaithful? If this is what you’re talking about, I’m honest with my wife. She knows that I occasionally think other women are attractive, but she takes care of me and she knows my promises to her are 100% valid.
I’d much rather have someone be honest with me and agree with me 99% than someone who says they agree with me 100% and then goes around telling my people they are inferior because they aren’t all there.
I find a compliment from someone in a lower station in life than myself, more meaningful than anything that people who think they are “better” than me think. That reflects on how well I treat the least of Christ’s brothers, not just those who can do me favors.
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
How can this be? I thought the gates of hell would not prevail against her.
By your logic if I dissent from the Church, the best thing for me to do is to go start my own religion. Is it possible that this attitude helped drive Luther into doing so?
When Christ was crucified, it was not by dissenters from the faith. It was the faithful themselves, judging Christ to be blasphemous because He dared not follow their behavioral rules 100% by working on the sabbath, eating without washing, and all that other stuff.
What amazes me is that I understood we are all sinners. One person believes in everything the Church teaches and yet molests children. Another person doesn’t believe all the Church teaches, and yet works tirelessly on her behalf. Certain self-appointed saints say I should go away from Church because I don’t believe everything I’m supposed to. These people are exactly whom Christ was talking about when He taught on many parts in one body.
I’ll take my company with cafeteria Catholics any day over a bunch of pompous, know-it-all, exclusive “I actually AM a good Catholic – don’t you wish you were like me” people.
Honestly, you perfect people don’t even belong in the Church. Why hang around a hospital if you aren’t sick? If you are sick, then quit telling me your sickness is more holy than mine or I might just have to do something radical like pray for your eyes to be opened.
Alan
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dennisknapp
Guest
What I am speaking about is fidelity of belief. If we allow ourselves to be unfaithful in this area we are in the wrong, not the Church.
The Church makes it very clear what it declares to be true. It is up to us, if we so choose, to either accept or reject what the Church teaches. But to reject what she teaches and go about as if you accept it, is dishonest.
There have been a few posts in which you make the claim that I, and others who hold my position, think we are better than you. Why do you keep saying this?
When is fidelity equated with arrogance and pride? Why is standing for the truth equated with looking down on people?
If you have interpretated what I have said in this manner then you have misunderstood me.
Also, saying such things diverts from the real issue and borders on the logical fallacy known as ad hominem or character assassination. You are basically saying I am mean for holding the position I do. This has no bearing on the issue at hand.
Peace
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dennisknapp
Guest
The gates of hell wont prevail, but there can be casualities.
This is not an “attitude” but a call for personal honesty.
This does not follow, for the issue was not obedience to behavior rules. That was only an excuse to get ride of Him.
If a person molests children, he/she does not believe everything the Church teaches.
Typical ad hominem, if you can’t debate a person demonize him.
What sickness are you talking about here?
The issue is quite simple:
The Church teaches a.
The Church expects the faithful to believe a.
I can either accept a or reject a.
If I reject a then I am in disobedience.
Peace
K
KBarn
Guest
Penny Plain:
I agree that so much is funny. I am of the mind that God has a great sense of humor. But some things are so serious that they defy laughter, things such as the peril of a soul.
A woman who defies Church teaching not simply in her thoughts but also in her actions has imperiled her very soul. We must seek to correct her. Always mindful of my own sinfulness, if I knew her, I would try to bring it up gently. If I were a priest, I would ask her privately and with discretion, for the benefit of her own soul, to abstain from the Eucharist so she would not incur further sin against the Body and Blood of Christ. As a man of faith and prayer, I would pray that the Holy Spirit would complete the work He began in her.
The Church would rather offer the medicine of mercy than of judgement. But sometimes, for the sake of souls, she has felt it necessary to use judgment that God’s mercy may be all the more illustrated.
I agree. And I agree that the Church is everybody’s home because as St Augustine said, our hearts are restless until they rest in God.
I agree that so much is funny. I am of the mind that God has a great sense of humor. But some things are so serious that they defy laughter, things such as the peril of a soul.
A woman who defies Church teaching not simply in her thoughts but also in her actions has imperiled her very soul. We must seek to correct her. Always mindful of my own sinfulness, if I knew her, I would try to bring it up gently. If I were a priest, I would ask her privately and with discretion, for the benefit of her own soul, to abstain from the Eucharist so she would not incur further sin against the Body and Blood of Christ. As a man of faith and prayer, I would pray that the Holy Spirit would complete the work He began in her.
The Church would rather offer the medicine of mercy than of judgement. But sometimes, for the sake of souls, she has felt it necessary to use judgment that God’s mercy may be all the more illustrated.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I’ve said so many things to so many people the past few days, and like I once said I am generalizing so if the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it.
If someone truly believes he/she is in full communion with Catholic beliefs, then that’s fabulous. If they tell me that I am a marginal Catholic, a cafeteria Catholic, or that I should leave the Church because I am hurting her, then they are in fact telling me I don’t belong. Even if they think I’m the a-hole, I am still part of the body whom the Spirit has placed exactly where He wants. The attitude that I am maybe not good enough to be in the exclusive club they are in is what I’m talking about.
Of course, it is in my perception that I recognize this alleged slight which may not have been consciously conveyed at all – or may even be absent from the person’s heart. What I’m trying to do, actually, is awaken those who are trying to “help” people like me to give them some glimpse of why their methods incite arguments rather than conversions. They may not intend to deride anyone, but their words are loaded either because of what’s deep in their heart or because they latch onto others’ words and throw them around recklessly.
Again, if I falsely attributed any of these characteristics to you I apologize.
Nothing wrong with fidelity. Fidelity is good. When you (again using “you” collectively) stand on a pedestal and proclaim your fidelity, and tell us down here on ground level we are lost, that’s looking down at people. In particular, when you divide Catholics into “obedient Catholics” and “cafeteria Catholics” then you are dividing the Body of Christ. I know, some people think they are just trimming the fat.
It wouldn’t surprise me. I’ve misunderstood things before, and sometimes spoken without first gaining full understanding!
Did you not suggest that people who do not believe all things the Church teaches should leave the Church? Did you not say that my sin, if I don’t believe the Church, is great in comparison to homosexuality?
You have told me, in essence, that because I have problems with certain highly technical Church teachings that probably didn’t even exist in the time of Jesus, that I am in worse shape than if I were gay.
No, you aren’t being mean to me, if you intended it just to “inform” me for my own good. Suggesting that I am a worse sinner than if I were a homosexual, and that I should leave the Church, is hard to take without at least wondering whether you are speaking in anger or intolerance toward me.
If you are not mean, then you need to learn how to have a discussion about serious issues without telling a person they are not good enough to be members of the same Church as you, and inferring that they are the worse sinners there are.
On a side note, you should meet our new bishop Jackel (spelling? the name sounds like JAYkel) we finally got after Bishop Olmsted left our diocese. He actually was a Buddhist for two years after he left his parents, but then came back to the Church and is now a bishop. I’ve heard him preach twice now, once at my child’s Confirmation, and he is incredible. He is a spirit filled speaker who was so real that he totally impressed both kids and adults, both CCs and orthodox. Woo Hoo! We were afraid nobody could ever measure up to Olmsted, but this guy seems really great!
I told that story to emphasize that people change in their spiritual journey. Today’s heretics can be tomorrow’s St. Pauls.
Alan
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dennisknapp
Guest
I have never said that you were worse than a homosexual. I said that I do not understand how people who disagree with Church teaching can stay in the Church when there are other options for them.
I never said anyone was good or bad in relation to being a member of the Church. We are all sinners in need of grace and healing.
My whole concern is with those who claim the name Catholic and yet do not seem to understand the full meaning of what that entails.
We are the Faithful and that means adhering to the Church’s teaching. Its not about who is better than whom, but about integrity and fidelity. A conversion of the heart as well as the mind.
Peace
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Now that you mention it, you are right. What you actually wrote was, “The issues of homosexuality and ABC pale in comparison to the teaching that the Church is infallible in regards to faith and morals.” So the issue is a bigger issue.
In my mind personalized this, taking it to mean that what I am doing by expressing incomplete assent is worse than if I were homosexual.
This is why I’m providing this “attitude reflection” service for y’all. I have taught College Algebra and Electronics classes, and I know very well that things we say in an attempt to instruct will be taken wrong. Given that, I think it behooves us to learn how to correct a brother while minimizing the chance for it to backfire.
Another question is, what other options are there? Just because the Church may not be perfect, doesn’t mean there is a better game in town. That’s one reason we don’t leave. Also we “cradle Catholics” have come to feel this place is home, warts and all, even with brothers and sisters fighting each other.
You didn’t? Did I say you did? My apologies.
That is a worthy concern. This is more than a theological, intellectual exercise, though. All the theology in the world is of no value if we don’t know how to embrace each other as equals, and love one another unconditionally. That means whether they are gay, heretical, or whatever. Trying to teach them in one thing, but many people (not counting you) pontificate, essentially vaccinating those who need it most from being able to hear the truth.
I agree. Mental assent to all Church teachings is not enough. Personally, I think it is impossible to even know, much less embrace, all the Church teaches. How are anyone except theologians and apologists to be saved?
There must be something else, or we would all have to be heads and nobody would be arms or legs of the body of Christ. An arm or leg doesn’t have to know everything the brains knows; it just has to do its part.
On the topic of why stay in the Catholic Church, Friday I wore a T-shirt around all day with “Top ten reasons to remain Roman Catholic.” People kept starting at me everywhere I went, and then I saw they were reading my shirt and smiling.
Text on the front:
- It’s politically incorrect (Annoy the Catholic bashers)
- You can sing badly, and no one cares. (9 out of 10 American Catholics are musically impaired.)
- You can impress your friends (Tell them you belong to a militant international institution).
- Your Mother. (Low cost way to keep her happy).
- Great Weddings! (When it comes to ceremony the Catholic Church is smokin’)
- Great Pope!
- Saints. (Talk about friends in high places)
- Confession. (No, it’s not fun, but what a deal)
- Dependability. (Jesus founded our Church on Peter, the rock, and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it).
- And the number on reason to stay Roman Catholic is the awsome gift that no other church on earth can offer… (Drum roll, please…) >>>
- “THE EUCHARIST!” “He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day. For My Flesh is real food and My Blood is real Drink. He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood lives in Me and I in him.” – John 6:54-56
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Cadence
Guest
On the topic of why stay in the Catholic Church, Friday I wore a T-shirt around all day with “Top ten reasons to remain Roman Catholic.” People kept starting at me everywhere I went, and then I saw they were reading my shirt and smiling.
Text on the front:
Where did you get this shirt? Where can I get one too!
By they way Alan, I responded to your scathing criticism of me. I really didn’t appreciate the personal attack but I can see by your other posts that you are someone who takes things quite personally. I understand that because I do to.
Therefore I was very offended by your personal attacks. My post refered only to a hypothetical person - I didn’t attack anyones character. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I won’t judge you - please don’t judge me.
Text on the front:
- It’s politically incorrect (Annoy the Catholic bashers)
- You can sing badly, and no one cares. (9 out of 10 American Catholics are musically impaired.)
- You can impress your friends (Tell them you belong to a militant international institution).
- Your Mother. (Low cost way to keep her happy).
- Great Weddings! (When it comes to ceremony the Catholic Church is smokin’)
- Great Pope!
- Saints. (Talk about friends in high places)
- Confession. (No, it’s not fun, but what a deal)
- Dependability. (Jesus founded our Church on Peter, the rock, and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it).
- And the number on reason to stay Roman Catholic is the awsome gift that no other church on earth can offer… (Drum roll, please…) >>>
- “THE EUCHARIST!” “He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day. For My Flesh is real food and My Blood is real Drink. He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood lives in Me and I in him.” – John 6:54-56
Where did you get this shirt? Where can I get one too!
By they way Alan, I responded to your scathing criticism of me. I really didn’t appreciate the personal attack but I can see by your other posts that you are someone who takes things quite personally. I understand that because I do to.
Therefore I was very offended by your personal attacks. My post refered only to a hypothetical person - I didn’t attack anyones character. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. I won’t judge you - please don’t judge me.
M
Maranatha
Guest
The gates of Hell will not prevail. You can still damage the Church and lead others away.
By my logic, the best solution for you is to give up your pride and stop believing you can make your own moral code. I do not want you to leave the Church.
We are all sinners. Some sinners believe that what they do is not wrong and they don’t ask forgiveness. Other sinners have faith in the Church Christ founded and repent their sins.
Please refrain from the name calling but I’ll accept the prayers - I need all I can get.
T
Trelow
Guest
And why is it so hard for people to understand this?
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Maranatha
Guest
Because the Holy Spirit is working on them and they have faith in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is very powerful. They are drawn to it even when they refuse to give up their pride.
F
fix
Guest
A very interesting insight and probably accurate, but is it not possible many are just culturally raised Catholic and look upon the faith as they do their ethnic heritage?
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Trelow
Guest
Except for the fact that the latest poll showed that about 60% of Catholics don’t believe in the real presence, coincidentally thats about the same percent that doesn’t attend weekly mass.
I lean to the idea that many view Catholicism as a cultural identifier, much like secular Judaism is the majority in the s country, secular Catholicism is as well.
M
Maranatha
Guest
I was speaking about those who regularly attend Mass, perhaps volunteer in their church, donate money and, perhaps publicly, dissent.
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
I’ll ask my wife. She gave it to me, five minutes before we were to leave for Emporia, Kansas, where we were to see Rich Mullins in a non-Catholic Church, surrounded by probably 95% Protestants!!!Where did you get this shirt? Where can I get one too!
The Good News is that after the concert, Rich took the time to read the whole shirt, smiled, and talked for a while. At the same concert, he agreed to come to Wichita to play a free concert for Marriage Encounter, and played it on my own personal grand piano! :dancing:
Yes, I meant to respond specifically to your other post and ask you to help me understand why it bothered you so. I see now that I kind of used your post as a springboard to harangue against other people who fit a stereotype you certainly don’t fit.
It’s a deal. Thank you for your kind response, and for being honest with me. People who tell me everything is rosy when they really think it is not are not my friends, and just might be worse than people whom I think are judging me! :bowdown:
I’m sorry I came across that way. When I get mad I guess I tend to use a shotgun rather than a sniper rifle. Funny thing is, I like to think I never get mad, only “concerned.” Right. Move over a bit, you on the group “W” bench and I’ll take my place with you! :tiphat:
What I need to keep in mind, that anything anybody posts on these boards, as far as I know, are done out of faith. The Holy Spirit must have some reason I am so drawn to reading them, if for no other reason than to test me until I can learn not to judge. I think sometimes that I have life too easy and every now and then I could probably use a humility thorn. :ehh:
That’s it, partly, too. I think everyone else needs me as a thorn in their side to keep them humble. Now and then someone reflects back to me what I look like and it returns the favor!
Peace,
Alan
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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Right.
You can lead others away by calling them to another place. You can also drive them away by insisting that they agree to a system of rules they will never entirely know, and making it clear that until they do so, they are not really “full” members.
You use your method to drive people away from the Church, and I’ll use mine.
Honestly, I think I’m helping more than hurting, and I trust you feel the same way. If I didn’t believe that, than one of us is working for the wrong boss!
My style certainly is different than most other people’s at times, and sometimes I look back at things I typed months, days, or even minutes ago with regret. Sometimes I look back and am pleased. I don’t always know in advance what things I will later regret.
I appreciate your not wanting me to leave the Church. Once we have that established, then I can trust you.
As far as giving up my pride, I have been through so much in the last few years, that I think I’ve gone through at least all the gyrations and permutations involving the sin of pride that the Dark Night describes. To be honest, I think that pride and humility somehow meet out there somewhere so too much of either can make you slip around the other way and come back down the other side. It’s like, I’ll do something out of humility and then get humbled and think, “this isn’t right,” until I realize that I was only acting humble so that I can be exalted!
See how much my big mouth can get me into trouble? For the first time in my life, I’ve recently wondered what it would be like to take a vow of silence.
I’m sorry about name-calling. Hopefully I can control that at least for now as this thread seems to be calming down in the emotions department. I can’t say I won’t slip in the future and get a dig in; that is just how faithless I am sometimes!
I don’t know, I guess I was trying to get attention, and now that I got it I’m not sure I want it! :whacky:
Alan
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Pentecost2005
Guest
Someone who believes a heresy has heretical beliefs.
One can lose one’s faith, but not loose it.
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