View of dissent

[JCPhoenix]

According to an examination of conscience booklet I read today, dissent againts the Chruch is actually a mortal sin and therfore the woman in the example should not be recieving any sacrament other than Confession.

Of course, if she has not been properly catechized (as was my own position in the past), then that may mitigate the level of sin she is responsible for.

So the Church should be making an effort at the parish level to EDUCATE ALL PARISHONERS AND ATTENDEES so that they know and understand the faith.

Homilies should discuss sin and consequences of sin and define those sins that specifically are “hotbutton” issues in the political arena which dissent against the faith.

Largely people dissent because they have not been properly taught.

Those who have been taught and continue to dissent will face their judgment, so we the Church should be praying for their true conversion.

Jesus told his apostles that none come to him unless called by the Father…and maybe some have been raised, but not “called”, or maybe they aren’t hearing so well.

Only God can convert…we the faithful are to live as the light of Christ and help to lovingly educate those who do not understand the teacings.

My SD made a good point the other day, though: some people are not open to the truth and in that case words mean nothing. Only the way we live and carry ourselves may have an effect.

I for one have never seen “joy” emanating from a dissenting “Catholic”. They are so busy fighting God that joy eludes them. We must live as examples and be patient.

Personally, I’m still working on being the “beacon of Christ” thing…I’m not very good at it. And patience? Yeah…a virtue I don’t have.

So everyone, try to be a better beacon than I to the woman presented in the OP’s post!

 

[2Rollin_Stoned]

Hey Alan,
It sounds to me like you have some sort of issue with the fact that some folks are pretty sure of what they believe and that you are not. I don’t really get it. I don’t see where the mess ups of any one individual impair the infallibilty of the church. I don’t see that John Paul II or Benedicts XVI have given us anything that is fallible, unlike some of the U.S. Bishops and American Catholics who seem to think they should run the whole church to suit themselves. Frankly… I’m more interested in following the Pope… if what that bishop, Penny, or you says doesn’t line up with that then guess who I’m gonna run with?

 

[jimmy]

Penny Plain:

Hi.

I came back to the Forums after a few months to see what the reaction to Benedict XVI was. I was surprised and dismayed to see the number of posters who are hoping that he will drive away the “dissenters” (defined as everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with Church teaching). I don’t understand. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Let’s take a hypothetical person, so it doesn’t get personal immediately. Image a cradle Catholic who goes to Mass weekly and receives the Sacraments. This person is married and raising her children Catholic. She sins, like everyone else.

She also believes gay people should be able to marry each other (civil unions, not sacramental marriages) and uses birth control for non-medical reasons. She is not going to change either of those views, and she realizes that the teaching of the Church is contrary to her beliefs on these subjects.

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

The Church is not going to be the thought police. The problem is between you and God if you keep it private.

The problem I have with this is that, once you start denying teachings, where is the line defining Catholicism? You lose all knowledge of what Catholicism is when you start denying teachings. Like for instance. You use contraception and gay marriage as the example. You claim this hypothetical person is still a good Catholic. Say they deny the male only preisthood, are they still Catholic? Say they go one step further and deny the Assumption of Mary, are they still Catholic? Say they go further and deny the Immaculate Conception, are they still Catholic? Say they take it even further and deny The Hypostatic Union and claim that Christ was two persons instead of one, in other words they become Nestorian. Are they still Catholic? When do you stop and say, “This person is no longer Catholic”?

That is the problem with this idea that you can reject doctrine and still be Catholic. It leads to a relitivistic idea that the Church is only right when “I agree”. It leads to a self-centered type of thinking, where all doctrine is for my evaluation before it is true.

The doctrine is one. When we reject one article of the faith, we reject the whole faith. Look at all the heresies in history, they began with one error on one issue many times, yet they were condemned by the Church.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

JCPhoenix:

My SD made a good point the other day, though: some people are not open to the truth and in that case words mean nothing. Only the way we live and carry ourselves may have an effect.

That sounds like great advice. The way we live and treat other people is the most effective way to sell a lifestyle. People want to be needed or appreciated. If I do something you like, and really appreciate, then you know something that worked for you. If you want other people to appreciate you, you can implement the golden rule and return the favor to another person.

Remember this works based on how much the receiver delights in the gift. A compliment or at least an empathetic gesture sometimes may be all it takes; other times they may be hungry and really don’t want to hear it unless you buy them a cheeseburger and Dr. Pepper first.

It’s as if when we meet someone new, we give them a litmus test. Sir/Madam, it is good to meet a fellow Catholic. Tell me, do you consider yourself an “orthodox” Catholic? If they pass, we treat them as an equal. If they fail, we keep our distance from them because we don’t want any of what they have to rub off. This is what another poster referred to as the “saints only club.” If they don’t at least claim to be orthodox, and whatever lies they still believe they will, if given a sufficient argument, submit to whatever version of Church teaching they think is the right one, then we assign the “heretic” status, and require them to announce themselves as unclean, staying at least 100 feet away from the Eucharist until they become more worthy like us. After all, we are better than them because our sins are not as serious so nyah.

I for one have never seen “joy” emanating from a dissenting “Catholic”. They are so busy fighting God that joy eludes them. We must live as examples and be patient.

Dude, you are right on target. They fight God because they are confused. It’s easier than trying to fight the idiot crowd telling them they will go to hell if they do this and someone else tells them the opposite. Better to just be mad at God, because at least they can resist listening to the cacophony of do-gooder apologist wannabees who think that theology expertise is more important than patienly ministering to people starting from where they are, without this awful judging.

As far as joy? I have found such peace lately it is incredible. My heart is glad, although I have a lot of so-called “problems” in the eyes of the world. I have a beautiful family with six kids, and our house is being remodeled at insurance company expense, to much nicer standards than it was before our Good Friday fire.

This evening my 14 year old daughter came with me to play her violin as I played piano for Mass. I asked her because about five years ago she played “Holy Holy Holy” with me as communion meditation and the priest loved it so much he gave her a $5 tip after Mass. Today I told my daughter I would split my fee with her, if she would give me tips. She gladly obliged, and it was beautiful. O love the Holy Trinity music. I loved seeing my daughter approached by people of all ages after Mass telling her how beautiful it was.

We sang “O God Almighty Father” and O Sanctissima and All Hail, Adored Trinity, and Holy, Holy, Holy.

My kids and I sing and play piano and piano/violin duets at home all the time. It was wonderful sharing that father/daughter thing at Mass, and gave me an excuse to give her a few bucks.

Although I am unemployed and currently without a house because it caught on fire, I am thrilled with almost every hour of my life, save only a few. A few years ago I was severely psychotic with manic depressive disorder, manic type. A year ago I was suicidal. The past month I have been in emotional paradise, as I feel complete calm through any storm that comes up day after day because I know that the Lord will see that my family and I are taken care of.

You can mark me down as the first “cafeteria Catholic” you know who is overflowing with joy, peace, happiness, and gratitude. My children are the smartest and happiest children I know, and they achieve highly in their Catholic grade school and high school and are looked upon well by the teachers.

If you need evidence I am a real cafeteria Catholic, let me put it this way. I am still struggling with papal infallibility, although I am not anxious about it because Christ said not to be anxious about anything. Personally I don’t care if I ever really buy into it or not. I love Christ and His Church, whether she be infallible or not. She doesn’t have to be perfect to be my lifelong Church. That fact that she claims she is doesn’t particularly bother me either, except many Catholics use that as an excuse to beat each other up.
(continued)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued)

Personally, I’m still working on being the “beacon of Christ” thing…I’m not very good at it. And patience? Yeah…a virtue I don’t have.

Yes, I love the beacon of Christ thing, too. I’m also really into removal the bushel so the light can shine.

It’s easy, once you learn to relax. You might try contemplative prayer forms. Before you can have patience, you have to lose all your anger and submit your will to whatever God gives you in any given situation with glee or at least indifference. Once you depend on things being a certain way in order to be happy, you have handed over your remote pushbutton control over your feelings to the world. That’s why people who fret over unmet expectations or non-fatal sudden negative surprises have such a rough time. They constantly sweat over “is this a good or bad thing” and associate pleasure and pain with the results of their evaluation. Thus when things go wrong, they get frustrated and angry rather than playing the cards they’re dealt.

So everyone, try to be a better beacon than I to the woman presented in the OP’s post!

Dude, I’m thinking you must be pretty cool to even know how to say something like this. This cafeteria Catholic has today read a beautiful sentiment expressed by you, who I’m guessing has seen cafeteria Catholics in a negative light. Not all knowledgeable orthodox Catholics are accusatory, joyless oafs after all! (just kidding )

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

When do you stop and say, “This person is no longer Catholic”?

You say that when you wish to contradict the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.

The Church never ceases to claim any of her children as “Catholic” even if they be excommunicated or renounce their faith.

If a person has been baptized into the Catholic Church, or accepted after a valid baptism outside her, then you may never correctly call that person a non-Catholic should he seem to you to be a demon incarnate.

Facts are facts. People who only believe the Church’s teachings at any given time may disgust you or mystify you, but they are Catholics too. To claim otherwise is heresy, proving you live in a glass house on the issue of submission to the Pope, or Magesterium, or whatever the most theologically correct (TC) term works best here…

Alan

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

You say that when you wish to contradict the teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.

The Church never ceases to claim any of her children as “Catholic” even if they be excommunicated or renounce their faith.

If a person has been baptized into the Catholic Church, or accepted after a valid baptism outside her, then you may never correctly call that person a non-Catholic should he seem to you to be a demon incarnate.

Facts are facts. People who only believe the Church’s teachings at any given time may disgust you or mystify you, but they are Catholics too. To claim otherwise is heresy, proving you live in a glass house on the issue of submission to the Pope, or Magesterium, or whatever the most theologically correct (TC) term works best here…

Alan

Yes, they do. Look at all the heretics. Nestorius was anathema as well as Arius and the donatists and all other heretics. They may still have been Catholic in a sense due to their baptism, but they were no longer full members of the Church.

Excommunication is a disciplinary process that kicks a person out of the Catholic Church, so yes they do say people are no longer Catholic, even though they may still have the seal of Baptism. They are Catholic in only their baptism, and Confirmation.

 

[Catholic2003]

Canon law defines heresy as follows:

Canon 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or doubt, after baptism, of a truth which must be believed by divine and catholic faith. Apostasy is the total repudiation of the christian faith. Schism is the withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

In other words, heresy is the rejection of infallible dogma.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

jimmy:

Yes, they do. Look at all the heretics. Nestorius was anathema as well as Arius and the donatists and all other heretics. They may still have been Catholic in a sense due to their baptism, but they were no longer full members of the Church.

I don’t know those people, as I’m not all that learned in these kinds of things.

I’m not talking about some exceptional cases that happened once or twice in history. I’m talking about the living breathing, Joe six-pack kind of Catholic that contributes time, talent and treasure to the Church, but simply has an unresolved problem with Church teachings, either through ignorance or whatever.

They are still Catholic, period. End of story.

Make up modifiers like cafeteria Catholic, Catholic In Name Only (a misnomer because they are Catholic in fact, but we know who you mean), and marginal Catholics and you are at least not heeding the advice of a Catholic Answers Apologist on the issue. See the thread in the AAA forum, “What do you call a Catholic who does not follow Church teachings?”

Excommunication is a disciplinary process that kicks a person out of the Catholic Church, so yes they do say people are no longer Catholic, even though they may still have the seal of Baptism. They are Catholic in only their baptism, and Confirmation.

I’ll bet you an imaginary dollar that excommunication does not “kick a person out of the Church” but prevents them from receiving sacraments.

If I’m excommunicated, does that mean I am persona non grata on the premises and that I can’t even sit and watch Mass? Would I have to remove my name from any parish register? I would hope not, if others were right in asserting that excommunication is done in hope of a person repenting and coming back.

Alan

 

[JCPhoenix]

Alan from Witchita,

Just as an FYI, and because my handle is androgynous, I’m actually a “dudette”.

I’m sorry to hear about your house fire. I have worked with many people made suddenly homeless through this tragedy and my heart goes out to you and your family.

As far as not being sure about the infallability of the Pope, do you actually understand the term? Do you understand that it refers only to faith and moral teachings of the Church, not about his own personal conduct? (Although JPII and our current Benedict XVI are very solid, personally, from what I’ve seen!)

I used to be a “dissenter” because I had poor catechesis. When I began doing some research and saw the foundations of the moral standpoints of the Church, I saw the logic and from my own life the fallout of my rebellion.

I now accept everything and seem to learn something new every day. Keep praying, keep going to church, and if you find you are at odds with a teaching, take the time to research the actual teaching of the Church to satisfy your questions.

Dissent mostly comes from misunderstanding…and when those questions are identified and answered, that person who is maybe a “cafeteria Catholic” can go from “dissent” to “orthodox” in seconds…and just think how many souls they can educate through their own trial!

Then again, there are dissenters like the Rainbow Sash Coalition, and I have entrusted their souls to the Divine Mercy of Jesus…because they are not open to words of truth.

 

[jimmy]

AlanFromWichita:

I don’t know those people, as I’m not all that learned in these kinds of things.

I’m not talking about some exceptional cases that happened once or twice in history. I’m talking about the living breathing, Joe six-pack kind of Catholic that contributes time, talent and treasure to the Church, but simply has an unresolved problem with Church teachings, either through ignorance or whatever.

They are still Catholic, period. End of story.

Make up modifiers like cafeteria Catholic, Catholic In Name Only (a misnomer because they are Catholic in fact, but we know who you mean), and marginal Catholics and you are at least not heeding the advice of a Catholic Answers Apologist on the issue. See the thread in the AAA forum, “What do you call a Catholic who does not follow Church teachings?”

Whether Joe six-pack is part of the Church is between him and God. I don’t know. But my point is that if someone is opposed to the Church in doctrine, their communion with the Church is not full. There is something holding them back from complete communion.

AlanFromWichita:

I’ll bet you an imaginary dollar that excommunication does not “kick a person out of the Church” but prevents them from receiving sacraments.

If I’m excommunicated, does that mean I am persona non grata on the premises and that I can’t even sit and watch Mass? Would I have to remove my name from any parish register? I would hope not, if others were right in asserting that excommunication is done in hope of a person repenting and coming back.

Alan

No, someone who is excommunicated from the Church is not banned from going to mass or anything. It is actually better if they do go to mass, hopefully they will gain some sense and repent.

 

[dennisknapp]

AlanFromWichita:

I love my Church. I was born into it, and even though I have suffered much mental abuse at the hands of those operating her while I was honestly trying to do the right things, I finally realized it was where I belong. It is where I want to raise my kids. The kids know more about Catholicism than I ever will, and consistently win Religion Bowl contests against Catholic children from other schools.

I don’t need to think my Church is 100.000% infallible on any particular set of issues in order to love her and support her through stewardship. Neither do I need to think my wife is 100.000% infallible on any given issue for me to love her and support her. Nor do I dare make any really overts attempts to change either one of them because I have learned that it will hurt me, immediately and profoundly. I accept her with her faults.

When I was in school, I was considered a “nerd.” I was way ahead of everybody else in many topics, and in seventh grade (or eight, I forgot) I won second place in mathematics in the entire archdiocese of Chicago, over 400 Catholic schools. I am used to standing by my answer when I believe I’m right, against a lot of lesser able people trying to convince me they are right. They may be right, but their approach is so cliched and emotional that it is difficult to discuss rationally.

Now, if I went around and clucked over other people that I was better in math then them, or just went around telling them “for their own benefit” that if they didn’t do better in math, and in fact love it and honor it, they would never amount to anything except a common laborer, how do you think they would respond to me? When I was in college I would often visit Indiana State University students, who would inevitably find out I went to Rose-Hulman, a private engineering school about five miles from ISU. All of a sudden they would say, “ooh, you must be smaaarrt” and from then on treat me like they were afraid to talk around me for fear I was judging them.

That’s how it sounds when religious nerds who know a great deal about canon law talk to the likes of me. Not only do they know more, they have a better attitude and what they don’t know that I don’t, or that I haven’t yet bought into, will kill me eternally.

If you want to do something for me that I need, send me some money to help me pay my bills. Come help me fix the door on my house and on my car. Come work with me on a parish clean-up day washing church windows, and maybe we can become friends. Once we become friends, then maybe I’ll start to trust you enough to bother listening to what you have to say.

Now if I may ask the “full meal deal” Catholics a question, how can you continue to insist that the Church is perfect yet her leaders are fallible? So what? If those leaders are the ones bringing me the message, and they disagree on important doctrine such as some bishops do, what am I to think? It isn’t my job to become an expert at all the details of canon law so that I can make sure my pastor and/or bishop is not lying to me. That is their job, and if they do it imperfectly, then I get imperfect teachings. It does me no good to know that there is an absolutely true written version of things when I don’t have a Ph.D. in canon law and those who are supposed to be my leaders lie to me.

From where I stand the bishop and our priest ARE the Church. Just like children depend on their parents for leadership, the sheep rely on the shepherds. The sheep are still in just as bad shape when the shepherd steers them wrong whether or not the Catholic Church has the Holy Grail of truth somewhere on the other side of the planet.

Alan

What does truth mean to you?

I ask because this is the core of my concern. I am concerned with honesty, integrity, and consistency. In a word, fidelity.

Are you to be 99.99% faithful to your wife or 100% faithful to her?

It is the same with the Church, for we are all married to Christ.

Peace

 

[Cadence]

AlanFromWichita:

Why hasn’t it been mentioned that if one person has an anger attack toward a brother, they are liable to judgment, and if they say to their brother “you fool” they may be thrown into the fires?

Your very attitude and your judgment of the heart of another Catholic based on surface measures (whether they use contraception or whether they ceremonially wash their hands before eating) in telling them THEY are not worthy to eat the food of eternal life, is a judgment against you and neither should you go to Communion.

Even if you think you are the brain of the Body of Christ and I am the anus, I guarantee I have a function to perform, and Christ says to revere the unmentionable parts above those which do not need any reverence. If you cut off all the parts of the body which you think are involved in ugly stuff, the body will not function. God put us all in our place, and if we had some faith we would not believe it is our job to resurrect the Inquisition.

It is? It would be nice if we treated each other like loving family instead of that there are the few “good” Christians and then the many unwashed.

Jesus also said, “do not judge.” Don’t forgive the “do not judge” part.

How do you know this “sinner” that you’re lecturing doesn’t have some much more serious problem. We take people who are hurting and tell them how messed up they are.

So if I sin because I believe the wrong thing, but you sin even though, fully believing the right things, you fall short of them, what’s the difference?

Just thank God that you’re blessed with a submissive heart and are not a hellbound self-inflicted outcast like me. Surely God will hear your prayer and reward you greatly. You know, if you didn’t have me to compare yourself to, how would you know how righteous you are? Righteousness would mean nothing unless there was something to compare it to. We sinners are doing you saints a great service in providing a platform for you to walk all over.

Alan

Alan

Quite frankly the only one judging people is you - judging me!
I was simply stating the churches teaching on the subject. If someone commits a mortal sin they need to confess it before they recieve communion again. Simple.
By the way, I stopped comparing myself to others a long time ago. Why? Because I came off looking pretty bad.
I am no saint. I’ve done many things I am not proud of. I fall all the time. How I fall is quite frankly non of your business but the fact is that when do I abstien from communion until I can go to confession.
How do you know I have a submissive heart? You think I do because I accept church teachings? THat dosn’t mean I have an easy time following them! The Catholic Church has never demanded that people submissevly follow its teachings in ignorance. We do need humility though, especially when we don’t like a particular teaching.

So Alan - get off your high horse!

 

[Penny_Plain]

Thanks for a very interesting discussion, everybody.

Somebody asked why this person stays Catholic if she disagrees with the Church’s views on some things. I would guess (of course, I have no personal knowledge…) that she stays because the Church is her home.

Somebody else asked whether we are to be 99.99% faithful to our spouses or 100 %. Interesting way to put it. I am 100 % faithful to my husband, but that does not mean that I agree with everything he does or do everything he says. If he ever claimed to be infallible, I would laugh at him. But I’d stay with him anyway.

It just seems like we take these things so seriously. I think life is funnier than it looks, and so is everything that is touched by life. Work, love, sex, religion – it’s all fun and funny if you do it right and don’t take it and yourself very seriously.

 

[fix]

Penny Plain:

Thanks for a very interesting discussion, everybody.

Somebody asked why this person stays Catholic if she disagrees with the Church’s views on some things. I would guess (of course, I have no personal knowledge…) that she stays because the Church is her home.

Somebody else asked whether we are to be 99.99% faithful to our spouses or 100 %. Interesting way to put it. I am 100 % faithful to my husband, but that does not mean that I agree with everything he does or do everything he says. If he ever claimed to be infallible, I would laugh at him. But I’d stay with him anyway.

It just seems like we take these things so seriously. I think life is funnier than it looks, and so is everything that is touched by life. Work, love, sex, religion – it’s all fun and funny if you do it right and don’t take it and yourself very seriously.

Salvation is serious and the truth is serious. Being faithful means accepting all that Christ teaches. The analogy about marriage is spot on. How can we be less than 100% faithful to Christ?

 

[Maranatha]

Penny Plain:

Thanks for a very interesting discussion, everybody.

Somebody asked why this person stays Catholic if she disagrees with the Church’s views on some things. I would guess (of course, I have no personal knowledge…) that she stays because the Church is her home.

Somebody else asked whether we are to be 99.99% faithful to our spouses or 100 %. Interesting way to put it. I am 100 % faithful to my husband, but that does not mean that I agree with everything he does or do everything he says. If he ever claimed to be infallible, I would laugh at him. But I’d stay with him anyway.

It just seems like we take these things so seriously. I think life is funnier than it looks, and so is everything that is touched by life. Work, love, sex, religion – it’s all fun and funny if you do it right and don’t take it and yourself very seriously.

You don’t have to agree with the Magisterium 100% but you should trust in Christ and the Holy Spirit and follow the Magisterium teachings 100%. Not following their teachings can be equated to not being faithful to your DH.

Do you love the Church. Do you realize that when you dissent and stay in the Church you are damaging the Church?

 

[gardenswithkids]

KCT:

What if the person described above has not been well instructed? … Do we assume all dissenters are rejecting the faith or are they dissenters by default, because no one taught them the truth? —KCT

Excellant point! Sadly many of the people I know who fit the description of the original “hypothetical” Catholic have been well instructed in the ways of dissent. After 16 years of a so-called “Catholic” education that questions every stance the Church takes, is it any wonder that some very well educated Catholics disagree with the Church on major social issues?

I agree with Penny Plain that we often take things too seriously, and some people take their dissent from Church teachings way too seriously. I think the so-called Catholic theologians who spread error should be laughed out of their jobs. “You think you’re teaching Catholicism? Ha ha ha ha ha…”) Work, love, sex and religion is too fun to let some heretical teachers spoil by failing to adequately share the truth with those entrusted to their care.

Penny Plain, sin isn’t fun. The Church teachings are fun. The children who I’ve had since I stopped contracepting make me giggle and laugh. I cry for those friends of mine who let dissenting priests and professors talk them out of their own children and who deprived them of that joy and laughter.

 

[Ignatius]

Penny Plain:

Hi.

I came back to the Forums after a few months to see what the reaction to Benedict XVI was. I was surprised and dismayed to see the number of posters who are hoping that he will drive away the “dissenters” (defined as everyone who doesn’t agree 100% with Church teaching). I don’t understand. Would somebody please explain it to me?

Let’s take a hypothetical person, so it doesn’t get personal immediately. Image a cradle Catholic who goes to Mass weekly and receives the Sacraments. This person is married and raising her children Catholic. She sins, like everyone else.

She also believes gay people should be able to marry each other (civil unions, not sacramental marriages) and uses birth control for non-medical reasons. She is not going to change either of those views, and she realizes that the teaching of the Church is contrary to her beliefs on these subjects.

What do you want the Church to do about her and people like her? Why? What do you think the Church will actually do?

You cannot remain in union with the Church of Christ and be a proponent evil. She is like Luther, he was even a churchman, but he pointed out some problems in the church, but he also taught heresy.

Why would someone want to be a member if she/he does not adhere to the tenets of the Faith unless it is to damage ti.

The Holy Spirit, which will always guide the Church until the end of time (as stated by Christ Himself). The Church may have to become somewhat smaller in order to be purified. To paraphrase Proverbs: It is better to have a meal with a few friends than a great feast with dissention.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

JKirkLVNV:

Gently explain to her that she’s no longer Catholic. She can come back when she’s able to submit to the teaching authority of the Church. Until then, she should refrain from receiving Holy Communion. She should also be respectfully asked not to represent herself as Catholic, though there really isn’t anything the Church can do about that, ie, John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, Father Richard McBrien, etc.

The trouble with this idea is, that Father McBrien is a priest in good standing.​

If he’s not a Catholic - doesn’t this raise a few problems ? He seems to think he is; his bishop seems to think he is.

If these or others aren’t Catholics - isn’t it rather remiss of the competent authorities to treat them as though they are ? John Kerry didn’t receive a Papal knighthood - unlike another Catholic politician with views about abortion similar to his.

If Catholics are not to be confused - the big cheeses in the Church really need to stop sending mixed signals. They only cause confusion.

FWIW, ISTM that doctrinal orthodoxy is too exclusive a way of identifying Catholics. What happened to conduct ? It is a bit odd to suggest that a serial murderer can be a Catholic, and that someone who disbelieves in the Assumption but accepts everything else, is not. After all, Jesus didn’t ask his disciples to pass a dogmatics exam - he told them the parable of the Sheep and the Goats, and the parable of the good Samaritan. ##

 

[dennisknapp]

Penny Plain:

Thanks for a very interesting discussion, everybody.

Somebody asked why this person stays Catholic if she disagrees with the Church’s views on some things. I would guess (of course, I have no personal knowledge…) that she stays because the Church is her home.

Somebody else asked whether we are to be 99.99% faithful to our spouses or 100 %. Interesting way to put it. I am 100 % faithful to my husband, but that does not mean that I agree with everything he does or do everything he says. If he ever claimed to be infallible, I would laugh at him. But I’d stay with him anyway.

It just seems like we take these things so seriously. I think life is funnier than it looks, and so is everything that is touched by life. Work, love, sex, religion – it’s all fun and funny if you do it right and don’t take it and yourself very seriously.

The Church claims infalliblity, so what do you do with her? What about being faithful to her?

Peace