J
jlw
Guest
Well…why??
Well…why?? Does she believe that the Church’s teachings on faith and morals are just set of *opinions, *that which are equal in weight toher own opinions??
- Status
C
chevalier
Guest
If she keeps it to herself and doesn’t publicly go against the Church, then I’m against driving her away.
If she tells her kids gay people should be able to marry people of the same gender, then she’s not raising them Catholic.
I know a priest who didn’t give absolution to a woman who started enumerating things she didn’t agree with the Church on.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Penny Plain:
What should the church do about such folks? Pretty clear in the NT little sister.
James 5:19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
And this one too:
1st Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
Penny, we can’t change the truth and you wouldn’t respect us if we did would you? Most of us have messed up at some point and some still do from time to time and that’s no news is it?
But the whole point is that if we are gonna follow Christ then like He said we pick up our cross daily and …follow. If we’re just like everyone else, then what’s the point?
My job is not to tell you or the church what to do, but to live out such an example that you will want what I’m living. If you have problems… I have problems and all I can do is be honest with you and pray with and for you if you are all messed up. The object isn’t to kick folks out (they do that to themselves most times), but to help each other find Jesus and be reconciled to Him. We gotta grow together and that can’t happen if you take off.
I don’t think you’ll see Benedict XVI chasing people off, though they may well be less than happy with his consistently orthodox and conservative stance, but none of us prayed for God to send us a gutless wimp y’know?
You can (and probably do) pray about all the stuff that you disagree with and commit to following out the answer that the Holy Spirit brings you. It takes courage.
Pax tecum,
BTW, “What will the church do with her?” See Luke 15:11-32
"11 And he said: A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father: Father, give me the portion of substance that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his substance. 13 And not many days after, the younger son, gathering all together, went abroad into a far country: and there wasted his substance, living riotously. 14 And after he had spent all, there came a mighty famine in that country; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and cleaved to one of the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his farm to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks the swine did eat; and no man gave unto him. 17 And returning to himself, he said: How many hired servants in my father’s house abound with bread, and I here perish with hunger? 18 I will arise, and will go to my father, and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee: 19 I am not worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And rising up he came to his father. And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and running to him fell upon his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, I am not now worthy to be called thy son. 22 And the father said to his servants: Bring forth quickly the first robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it, and let us eat and make merry: 24 Because this my son was dead, and is come to life again: was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 25 Now his elder son was in the field, and when he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing:
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him: Thy brother is come, and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in. His father therefore coming out began to entreat him. 29 And he answering, said to his father: Behold, for so many years do I serve thee, and I have never transgressed thy commandment, and yet thou hast never given me a kid to make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son is come, who hath devoured his substance with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 But he said to him: Son, thou art always with me, and all I have is thine. 32 But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found. "
Dear Penny,
What should the church do about such folks? Pretty clear in the NT little sister.
James 5:19 My brethren, if any of you err from the truth, and one convert him: 20 He must know that he who causeth a sinner to be converted from the error of his way, shall save his soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins.
And this one too:
1st Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.
Penny, we can’t change the truth and you wouldn’t respect us if we did would you? Most of us have messed up at some point and some still do from time to time and that’s no news is it?
But the whole point is that if we are gonna follow Christ then like He said we pick up our cross daily and …follow. If we’re just like everyone else, then what’s the point?
My job is not to tell you or the church what to do, but to live out such an example that you will want what I’m living. If you have problems… I have problems and all I can do is be honest with you and pray with and for you if you are all messed up. The object isn’t to kick folks out (they do that to themselves most times), but to help each other find Jesus and be reconciled to Him. We gotta grow together and that can’t happen if you take off.
I don’t think you’ll see Benedict XVI chasing people off, though they may well be less than happy with his consistently orthodox and conservative stance, but none of us prayed for God to send us a gutless wimp y’know?
You can (and probably do) pray about all the stuff that you disagree with and commit to following out the answer that the Holy Spirit brings you. It takes courage.
Pax tecum,
BTW, “What will the church do with her?” See Luke 15:11-32
"11 And he said: A certain man had two sons: 12 And the younger of them said to his father: Father, give me the portion of substance that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his substance. 13 And not many days after, the younger son, gathering all together, went abroad into a far country: and there wasted his substance, living riotously. 14 And after he had spent all, there came a mighty famine in that country; and he began to be in want. 15 And he went and cleaved to one of the citizens of that country. And he sent him into his farm to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks the swine did eat; and no man gave unto him. 17 And returning to himself, he said: How many hired servants in my father’s house abound with bread, and I here perish with hunger? 18 I will arise, and will go to my father, and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee: 19 I am not worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. 20 And rising up he came to his father. And when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and was moved with compassion, and running to him fell upon his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, I am not now worthy to be called thy son. 22 And the father said to his servants: Bring forth quickly the first robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it, and let us eat and make merry: 24 Because this my son was dead, and is come to life again: was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. 25 Now his elder son was in the field, and when he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard music and dancing:
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. 27 And he said to him: Thy brother is come, and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe. 28 And he was angry, and would not go in. His father therefore coming out began to entreat him. 29 And he answering, said to his father: Behold, for so many years do I serve thee, and I have never transgressed thy commandment, and yet thou hast never given me a kid to make merry with my friends: 30 But as soon as this thy son is come, who hath devoured his substance with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 But he said to him: Son, thou art always with me, and all I have is thine. 32 But it was fit that we should make merry and be glad, for this thy brother was dead and is come to life again; he was lost, and is found. "
K
KCT
Guest
What if the person described above has not been well instructed? What I know about my faith I didn’t learn in CCD; I learned on my own. It seems to me, we need to be helping to support better catechesis - for youth and adults. Do we assume all dissenters are rejecting the faith or are they dissenters by default, because no one taught them the truth? —KCT
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I agree KCT…that’s why I’ve volunteered to work in my parish’s adult faith formation
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Exactly my point.
As Pope Benedict lifts the veil of confusion, I believe we are not only going to see some wayward Catholics come home, but I believe we will witness people of other faiths come home to her. This is a complex thing to explain, but many people are seeking Truth, but don’t know it and are stuck in the magnetic pull of relativism. It will take time and persistence on the part of church leaders to continue to hammer home that there is only one true North and and one cannot go in any direction they want and call it North. This is the nature of relativism. Rather, Benedict will help people to see where North is and to point and say, “This way! Follow, Me!”.
J
johnq
Guest
Penny Plain :tiphat:
Penny Plain:
My main problem was not about the guy marriage, pill or women ordination, it was about accepting authority. My pride blinded into thinking that obedience was not important.
Then God showed me that His Son was obedient.
Phil.2 8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross**.**
John.5 [19] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. (Now that is obedience)
OK, so Jesus is obedient. Now what? St. Paul helped me out.
1Cor.11 1] Be imitators of me**, as I am of Christ. **
It was so plain and simple. In order to be like Christ we must be obedient like Christ. Obedient to what? Thank God I was Catholic and knew where to look.
**Matt.16 18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. **
Well that was easy enough. It is the Church. Jesus grafted his authority to Peter and the Church. I must submit to the authority because everything the Church teaches on faith and morals is what God believes.
1Tim.3 15] you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar** and bulwark of the truth. **
Furthermore, I realized that Church cannot conform Her teachings to the times or “with its growing understanding of the nature of God.”
Heb.13 [8] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. (Turth cannot change because Jesus is truth)
Then God showed me the importance of obedience and the consequence related to disobedience.
**John.14 15] "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. **
John.14 23] Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24] He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
Even though my lips would say, “I love you, Jesus” my heart could not. I had chosen my own will over the Fathers.
Once the issue of obedience to the Church fell in place, I quickly learned the beauty behind the teachings I rejected. Concerning the pill, I must constantly forgive myself for having sex while we used the pill. It is hard to imagine that I might have murdered my own child.
Penny, I want to thank you for your zeal. Please take courage and become obedient to Christ by becoming obedient to His Church. Scripture tells us we cannot straddle the fence. Hop on over and come home to the fullness of the faith.
May God continue to bless you and your family.
BTW, to answer your question. The Church will do what she has always done.
Luke.6 36] Be merciful, even as your Father** is merciful. **
Penny Plain:
Well, I have been exactly in your same position. Those were my issues; although, I must add women ordination to the mix.
My main problem was not about the guy marriage, pill or women ordination, it was about accepting authority. My pride blinded into thinking that obedience was not important.
Then God showed me that His Son was obedient.
Phil.2 8] And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross**.**
John.5 [19] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise. (Now that is obedience)
OK, so Jesus is obedient. Now what? St. Paul helped me out.
1Cor.11 1] Be imitators of me**, as I am of Christ. **
It was so plain and simple. In order to be like Christ we must be obedient like Christ. Obedient to what? Thank God I was Catholic and knew where to look.
**Matt.16 18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. **
Well that was easy enough. It is the Church. Jesus grafted his authority to Peter and the Church. I must submit to the authority because everything the Church teaches on faith and morals is what God believes.
1Tim.3 15] you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar** and bulwark of the truth. **
Furthermore, I realized that Church cannot conform Her teachings to the times or “with its growing understanding of the nature of God.”
Heb.13 [8] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. (Turth cannot change because Jesus is truth)
Then God showed me the importance of obedience and the consequence related to disobedience.
**John.14 15] "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. **
John.14 23] Jesus answered him, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24] He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Father’s who sent me.
Even though my lips would say, “I love you, Jesus” my heart could not. I had chosen my own will over the Fathers.
Once the issue of obedience to the Church fell in place, I quickly learned the beauty behind the teachings I rejected. Concerning the pill, I must constantly forgive myself for having sex while we used the pill. It is hard to imagine that I might have murdered my own child.
Penny, I want to thank you for your zeal. Please take courage and become obedient to Christ by becoming obedient to His Church. Scripture tells us we cannot straddle the fence. Hop on over and come home to the fullness of the faith.
May God continue to bless you and your family.
BTW, to answer your question. The Church will do what she has always done.
Luke.6 36] Be merciful, even as your Father** is merciful. **
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Thank you. :tiphat:
Somebody has to inform these ignorant Catholics of our true teachings. Otherwise the blood they shed will be on the hands of those of us who know better. This is how it works; when they judge me as a heretic and a non-Catholic they bring the exact same judgment on themselves.
Alan
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Thank you. I might also offer her safe haven on these forums where the point is to discuss these things, although she’ll have to be ready to endure many attacks.
Agreed.
Did she do that in the confessional? Was she confessing them as sins or trying to negotiate? If a priest believes that a person is not in a repentant spirit, can they refuse absolution? I’m guessing yes, because St. Pio did.
Alan
C
chevalier
Guest
Yeah, lack of repentant spirit precludes valid absolution and there’s no point giving an invalid one.
K
KCT
Guest
Church Militant:
My dh is on pastoral council, our older 2 teens help w/ the youth leadership team & Confirmation and I’m on the newly forming vocations committee. Once our 14 yr old is confirmed, she hopes to join the youth leadership team as well. That’s not to say we receive all our formation from our parish . . . we don’t. I have a spiritual director who is not a parish priest and we take advantage of formative activities where ever we can find them. But it’s all for the purpose of being better apostoles and serving our parish more effectively. —KCT
Good for you! You’re helping solve the problem and that’s what I like to hear
My dh is on pastoral council, our older 2 teens help w/ the youth leadership team & Confirmation and I’m on the newly forming vocations committee. Once our 14 yr old is confirmed, she hopes to join the youth leadership team as well. That’s not to say we receive all our formation from our parish . . . we don’t. I have a spiritual director who is not a parish priest and we take advantage of formative activities where ever we can find them. But it’s all for the purpose of being better apostoles and serving our parish more effectively. —KCT
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Church Militant:
The more posts of yours I read, the more I’m starting to like them.
From what I read about Penny’s questions, I didn’t detect she was talking about trying to get the Church to change the truth, just what do self-described orthodox Catholics think should be done with a person who holds a private view that may not be in line with Church teachings.
But as I read in someone’s signature, something like “I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before.”
On another note, to those who wish cafeteria Catholics would leave the Church, aren’t you encouraging an even greater increase of Protestantism? I guarantee if I was asked to leave the Catholic Church for my non-Catholic views I could find a Protestant or non-denominational church which will welcome me and make me feel a part of them even if I don’t share all their views – in less than one day.
Alan
Dear Church Militant,
The more posts of yours I read, the more I’m starting to like them.
From what I read about Penny’s questions, I didn’t detect she was talking about trying to get the Church to change the truth, just what do self-described orthodox Catholics think should be done with a person who holds a private view that may not be in line with Church teachings.
But as I read in someone’s signature, something like “I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before.”
On another note, to those who wish cafeteria Catholics would leave the Church, aren’t you encouraging an even greater increase of Protestantism? I guarantee if I was asked to leave the Catholic Church for my non-Catholic views I could find a Protestant or non-denominational church which will welcome me and make me feel a part of them even if I don’t share all their views – in less than one day.
Alan
C
Cadence
Guest
Why hasn’t been mentioned that if someone is using contraception for non-medical reasons then the SHOULDN’T be recieving communion every Sunday?
Fine, you want to believe differently from the Church. However if that is the case you are not in communion with the Church. Therefore recieving communion is sacrelige against the True Presence.
We all, no matter which sin it is, need to go to confession and be absolved of all our mortal sins BEFORE we recieve communion. If you are actively living in a way that is outside the Churches teachings then you cannot recieve communion until you repent.
Being a Catholic is not simply a “family tradition” or a cultural practice.
Jesus said “you are forgiven. Go and sin no more.”
Don’t forget the “sin no more” part! We have to at least TRY, and ask forgiveness when we fail.
Fine, you want to believe differently from the Church. However if that is the case you are not in communion with the Church. Therefore recieving communion is sacrelige against the True Presence.
We all, no matter which sin it is, need to go to confession and be absolved of all our mortal sins BEFORE we recieve communion. If you are actively living in a way that is outside the Churches teachings then you cannot recieve communion until you repent.
Being a Catholic is not simply a “family tradition” or a cultural practice.
Jesus said “you are forgiven. Go and sin no more.”
Don’t forget the “sin no more” part! We have to at least TRY, and ask forgiveness when we fail.
M
Maranatha
Guest
All this brings up a good question.
If someone holds, privately, beliefs that are not consistent to Church teachings but continues to go to Church and receive communion, how should we try to correct her errors?
The story, of the prodigal son, will not likely help since the person probably feels they have never left home.
They perhaps act privately like taking the pill but otherwise don’t publicly act on their beliefs. One exception being, raising of her children which is not really public act.
How do we reach out to her to save her soul without being judgmental?
If someone holds, privately, beliefs that are not consistent to Church teachings but continues to go to Church and receive communion, how should we try to correct her errors?
The story, of the prodigal son, will not likely help since the person probably feels they have never left home.
They perhaps act privately like taking the pill but otherwise don’t publicly act on their beliefs. One exception being, raising of her children which is not really public act.
How do we reach out to her to save her soul without being judgmental?
T
trailblazer
Guest
As Christians we are called to admonish the sinner. Admonishment should be gentle and help the admonishee understand why their practice is wrong, with the aim of lighting up darkness with truth. This means pointing our wrongs in kindness, which means judging actions, not necessarily the person. Such judgement is not a lack of love; it is difficult, but is real love… concerned with souls, and truly caring about the person. Excommunication is considered a means of bringing someone into repentance.
Someone mentioned promoting Protestanism by driving away “cafeteria Catholics.” Frankly, I do not believe that they are Catholics anyway, unless they repent (our job to help). Many of you will disagree, but I personally think that removing such people who refuse to repent, dilute truth, promote heresy and division…would strengthen the Church. In the long run the Church would grow and prosper as it did during the early centuries. The Church was much harder on heretics then.
Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
Someone mentioned promoting Protestanism by driving away “cafeteria Catholics.” Frankly, I do not believe that they are Catholics anyway, unless they repent (our job to help). Many of you will disagree, but I personally think that removing such people who refuse to repent, dilute truth, promote heresy and division…would strengthen the Church. In the long run the Church would grow and prosper as it did during the early centuries. The Church was much harder on heretics then.
Love & peace in Christ,
Bob
D
dennisknapp
Guest
Why do you stay then? Please, this in not a personal attack, I am just curious.Dear Church Militant,
The more posts of yours I read, the more I’m starting to like them.
From what I read about Penny’s questions, I didn’t detect she was talking about trying to get the Church to change the truth, just what do self-described orthodox Catholics think should be done with a person who holds a private view that may not be in line with Church teachings.
But as I read in someone’s signature, something like “I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before.”
On another note, to those who wish cafeteria Catholics would leave the Church, aren’t you encouraging an even greater increase of Protestantism? I guarantee if I was asked to leave the Catholic Church for my non-Catholic views I could find a Protestant or non-denominational church which will welcome me and make me feel a part of them even if I don’t share all their views – in less than one day.
Alan
As a convert to Catholicism, I was convinced of its truth before I joined. I could never exist in a Church were I disagreed with teachings that Church said were infallible and could never change.
That being said, why exist in a Church that claims infalliblity and can never change when you disagree with it?
Peace
M
Mercy_Alvarenga
Guest
I would have asked the same question as dennisknapp did. I am also a convert to Catholicism and I don’t understand (and have never understood) what motivates somebody to take part in a faith tradition he or she does not agree with. I hope she’ll answer!
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Well Gee Alan, thanks (I think http://bestsmileys.com/lol/2.gif )Dear Church Militant,
The more posts of yours I read, the more I’m starting to like them.
From what I read about Penny’s questions, I didn’t detect she was talking about trying to get the Church to change the truth, just what do self-described orthodox Catholics think should be done with a person who holds a private view that may not be in line with Church teachings.
But as I read in someone’s signature, something like “I could be wrong. I’ve been wrong before.”
On another note, to those who wish cafeteria Catholics would leave the Church, aren’t you encouraging an even greater increase of Protestantism? I guarantee if I was asked to leave the Catholic Church for my non-Catholic views I could find a Protestant or non-denominational church which will welcome me and make me feel a part of them even if I don’t share all their views – in less than one day.
Alan
Being a “re-vert” to the faith, I know that I am Catholic because I agree with all that the Church teaches. I really don’t have any problems with anything that she teaches because I am committed to following Christ and I recognize the authority that He gave to the church, (something that our n-C cousins do not). In this same vein a NT passage comes to mind from Luke 7:1-10 & Matthew 8 5-13. It’s the passage about the healing of the Centurion’s servant, remember that? The verse that really sticks out in my mind is this one:
“For I also am a man subject to authority, having under me soldiers; and I say to this, Go, and he goeth, and to another, Come, and he cometh, and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.” (emphasis mine). There is just too much evidence in the NT that Our Lord gave the church the authority to lead us and so I have no problem trusting Him or the Holy Spirit to do just that. I mean does not the NT call us soldiers in a spiritual battle? Also, I think the Holy Spirit has done a champion job so far in the 2,000 years of our history, in spite of all the idiotic stuff that people have pulled along the way. In this respect, I don’t think we’re any different than the people of the epistles in the NT.
This is not to say that I have not had those times when I was in open rebellion because of sin, however, Our Lord was faithful even then to lead me through discipline and ultimately home where I belong. So I know that Prodigal Son parable from the inside as well.
I have often said that it would be a whole lot easier to be anything but a Catholic because to me Protestantism is just so much easier to fulfill and they catch a lot less grief from each other, even if they disagree about something, or even when they fall into sin, (unless of course you’re tele-evangelist
).I have to agree with Tom Rutkoski that if the Catholic Church isn’t Christ’s church then the devil wouldn’t be working so incredibly hard to destroy it. And I think the evidence of his efforts are all too easy to see.
I agree with you that it would be easy to find a n-Catholic “church-home” and they’d accept us, but that’s not what I want. I want the truth (like the Eucharist) & I want all the truth. I cannot settle for anything less, because half-truths are untruths aren’t they? Besides…I spent 34 years out there and as they old song says “Baby, it’s cold outside.”
Pax vobiscum,
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I love my Church. I was born into it, and even though I have suffered much mental abuse at the hands of those operating her while I was honestly trying to do the right things, I finally realized it was where I belong. It is where I want to raise my kids. The kids know more about Catholicism than I ever will, and consistently win Religion Bowl contests against Catholic children from other schools.
I don’t need to think my Church is 100.000% infallible on any particular set of issues in order to love her and support her through stewardship. Neither do I need to think my wife is 100.000% infallible on any given issue for me to love her and support her. Nor do I dare make any really overts attempts to change either one of them because I have learned that it will hurt me, immediately and profoundly. I accept her with her faults.
When I was in school, I was considered a “nerd.” I was way ahead of everybody else in many topics, and in seventh grade (or eight, I forgot) I won second place in mathematics in the entire archdiocese of Chicago, over 400 Catholic schools. I am used to standing by my answer when I believe I’m right, against a lot of lesser able people trying to convince me they are right. They may be right, but their approach is so cliched and emotional that it is difficult to discuss rationally.
Now, if I went around and clucked over other people that I was better in math then them, or just went around telling them “for their own benefit” that if they didn’t do better in math, and in fact love it and honor it, they would never amount to anything except a common laborer, how do you think they would respond to me? When I was in college I would often visit Indiana State University students, who would inevitably find out I went to Rose-Hulman, a private engineering school about five miles from ISU. All of a sudden they would say, “ooh, you must be smaaarrt” and from then on treat me like they were afraid to talk around me for fear I was judging them.
That’s how it sounds when religious nerds who know a great deal about canon law talk to the likes of me. Not only do they know more, they have a better attitude and what they don’t know that I don’t, or that I haven’t yet bought into, will kill me eternally.
If you want to do something for me that I need, send me some money to help me pay my bills. Come help me fix the door on my house and on my car. Come work with me on a parish clean-up day washing church windows, and maybe we can become friends. Once we become friends, then maybe I’ll start to trust you enough to bother listening to what you have to say.
Now if I may ask the “full meal deal” Catholics a question, how can you continue to insist that the Church is perfect yet her leaders are fallible? So what? If those leaders are the ones bringing me the message, and they disagree on important doctrine such as some bishops do, what am I to think? It isn’t my job to become an expert at all the details of canon law so that I can make sure my pastor and/or bishop is not lying to me. That is their job, and if they do it imperfectly, then I get imperfect teachings. It does me no good to know that there is an absolutely true written version of things when I don’t have a Ph.D. in canon law and those who are supposed to be my leaders lie to me.
From where I stand the bishop and our priest ARE the Church. Just like children depend on their parents for leadership, the sheep rely on the shepherds. The sheep are still in just as bad shape when the shepherd steers them wrong whether or not the Catholic Church has the Holy Grail of truth somewhere on the other side of the planet.
Alan
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Why hasn’t it been mentioned that if one person has an anger attack toward a brother, they are liable to judgment, and if they say to their brother “you fool” they may be thrown into the fires?
Your very attitude and your judgment of the heart of another Catholic based on surface measures (whether they use contraception or whether they ceremonially wash their hands before eating) in telling them THEY are not worthy to eat the food of eternal life, is a judgment against you and neither should you go to Communion.
Even if you think you are the brain of the Body of Christ and I am the anus, I guarantee I have a function to perform, and Christ says to revere the unmentionable parts above those which do not need any reverence. If you cut off all the parts of the body which you think are involved in ugly stuff, the body will not function. God put us all in our place, and if we had some faith we would not believe it is our job to resurrect the Inquisition.
It is? It would be nice if we treated each other like loving family instead of that there are the few “good” Christians and then the many unwashed.
Jesus also said, “do not judge.” Don’t forgive the “do not judge” part.
How do you know this “sinner” that you’re lecturing doesn’t have some much more serious problem. We take people who are hurting and tell them how messed up they are.
So if I sin because I believe the wrong thing, but you sin even though, fully believing the right things, you fall short of them, what’s the difference?
Just thank God that you’re blessed with a submissive heart and are not a hellbound self-inflicted outcast like me. Surely God will hear your prayer and reward you greatly.
You know, if you didn’t have me to compare yourself to, how would you know how righteous you are? Righteousness would mean nothing unless there was something to compare it to. We sinners are doing you saints a great service in providing a platform for you to walk all over.Alan
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